Why not speed limits?

[Mr. Coffee]

When you are a big dog, dog eat dog works for you....not so much when you turn into an old big dog or come up lame.

No matter how big a dog you are somewhere there's going to be a much bigger dog.

 

[Asher]

if it goes 60 mph it is not an E bike it is an E moto

Names don't matter, where people ride them does.

 

[Chargeride]

Its 17mph in Europe/UK and I 'll say I have to agree, we are very over crowded and cyclists flout the law en masse.
25mph ebikes tear arsing around with shopping on the handlebars, bouncing on and off the pavement/sidewalk.
Yes you can pedal that fast...but only the fittest for short periods.
Its not a problem offroad if you are doing it right, no ones climbing steep hills faster than 17mph and you can still downhill at 45 if you want.
The 250w limit is just legal speak, thete are road legal 800W emtbs in the UK.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

15.5 mph it is.

 

[Kayakguy]

I don't think that they're entirely toothless. If you are involved in an at-fault accident (such as you t-bone a car with your e-bike), and if you are riding an e-bike that runs afoul of the regulations, I think that fact could suddenly become very important and enforceable.

Almost perfectly summarizes my accident in mid Oct. of 2020. I T-boned the car (looked very diligently, still didn't see it), so was wholly at fault. The LEO who investigated came by my house after I was home from the hospital to show me the accident report, did not cite me (the car and my ebike came through unscathed), and never questioned the class rating of the bike. The fire dept. took the bike to my house, and assured my wife that I was still alive. My auto insurance covered the first $10,000 of the medical, and did this without any hesitation.

 

[john peck]

I just don't get this focus in Class 1 - 3 and throttles. The issue is speed! Makes no difference if ebike, pedal bike, gasoline motor bike, runner or whatever. The main concern is speed and potential accidents with walkers, joggers and pedal bikers and others on the trail or roadway.
My automobile has a top speed of 154 mph. However, I can use it on any public roadway - as long as I adhere to the posted speed. Sometimes it's 70mph and other times 15mph.
The trail I often use in PA has a posted speed limit of 18mph. What difference does it make what class my bike is or whether it has a throttle - as long as I adhere to the posted speed limit?

I just ride safe & curteous & never worry about it, but then I rarely exceed 18 mph anyway.

 

[Ken M]

Long-time biker but newbie ebiker here. I agree with your question/logic here. The only thing I can think of is that regulators/lawmakers think a more 'prophylactic' approach focusing on motor size, throttle or no, etc. is easier to implement/enforce than a simple speed limit? In most cases regulators/lawmakers aren't experts in most areas they regulate, so they get input, draft legislation, etc. from some kind of 'stakeholder' or interested group. It would interesting to know who those groups are in these situations...I'm guessing some more knowledgeable folks here in these forums can provide some context for some of this.

People for Bikes accepted lobby money to push 3-class state legislation that was a big step backwards from the federal definition that was far better for the adoption rate of ebikes and was easier to enforce.

 

[Ken M]

A long time ago, the comic book industry (facing criticism over their content destroying our youth, and the prospect of government regulation) chose to regulate itself by creating the "Comics Code Authority".

Decades later, the video game industry (facing criticism over their content destroying our youth, and the prospect of government regulation) chose to regulate itself by creating the "Entertainment Software Association", and created ratings like M for Mature, T for Teen, E for Everyone, etc.

Here, the industry regulating itself isn't practical because of interactions with other types of vehicles, dealing with insurance companies when accidents occur, and a hundred other reasons. My take on this is that rather than being regulated in an inconsistent way across different jurisdictions the e-bike industry decided to be proactive and create regulations that were more predictable and consistent. That's a win for manufacturers who can then sell the same product almost anywhere in the U.S., and a win for consumers who want regulation to be understandable and predictable. It would be a hassle if you bought an e-bike in one state, and then discovered (while travelling, or after moving to a new state) that it wasn't street legal in neighbouring jurisdictions, for example. This helps avoid that.

Regulation is undesirable for people who assemble their own e-bikes and don't want to be constrained by max speeds, max wattages, etc. But as e-bike sales grow, that's a declining part of the market overall, I suspect. And since regulation is likely inevitable, so having it be consistent is a win IMO.

I say that as someone in Canada who *wishes* we had consistent regulations from one province to the next!

I hope you were referring to the 3-class legislation promoted by People for Bikes as being "proactive." The federal definition for a Low Speed Electric Bicycle (LSEB) in HR727 2002 is a far better definition and the CPSC is supposed to control 1st Sale compliance in all 50 states. The garbage being pushed by People for Bikes is nothing but a regulatory capture effort via industry lobby money that wants to have some control of adoption rate (too many riders and big industries are impacted...that is just a fact).

 

[Ken M]

Right, this is what I was assuming. But my question is what exactly the bike manufacturers and their lobbyists gain from this approach? Are they assuming (maybe rightly) that there must be some regulation of these things and that this sort of regulatory approach is the lesser of the evils? Or ?

Do not support the 3-class legislation - it will just lead to registration and insurance requirements on class 3 ebikes as it did in Europe. The original federal LSEB definition in HR727 in 2002 is far better and simpler product definition for sale in all 50 states and the CPSC is supposed to own 1st sale compliance....not the states (they are doing their typical regulatory capture efforts).

 

[Widgets]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the 3 classes vs just having speed limits, or maybe the problem is that I do.

It seems like the main argument is that I cannot be trusted to follow the 20 mph speed limit posted on the MUT that I ride on, and that the ebike itself needs to be regulated to make sure I cannot be a bad actor and go over the speed limit.

Well, the roads in the county park near that MUT have a posted speed limit of 15 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.75 (75% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those roads.

The trails in the that county park have a posted speed limit of 10 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.5 (50% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those trails.

So, my ride this morning would really need three different ebikes. I would also need a support crew following me with the different ebikes so I could switch back and forth.

And how do we regulate the ebikes for a reasonable speed for the congestion when there are walkers in each direction, dog walkers in each direction, mobility impaired people in each direction? I just do not see regulation as a viable option. At some point you have to trust that I will do the right thing, with spot enforcement and peer pressure to help guide folks to do the right thing.

If I can be trusted to responsibly ride my class 1 ebike on the 15 mph roads and 10 mph trails, why is it illogical to trust that I would ride an unrestricted ebike on trails with a 20 mph limit?

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

 

[AHicks]

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

Biking legal beagles in Florida agree with this concept 100%. Went to it universally 2 years ago. They recognize the 3 class system, but have chosen to ignore it completely! If you are on an e-bike, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a bicycle - legally.

No more confusion.... K.I.S.S.!!!!

 

[mjeds]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street with 2 hospitals and 4 schools on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. No-where did I see anyone obeying speed limits; 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

 

[Widgets]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street wits 2 hospitals and 4 school on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. Now where did I see anyone obeying speed limits 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits Or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

 

[Ken M]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the 3 classes vs just having speed limits, or maybe the problem is that I do.

It seems like the main argument is that I cannot be trusted to follow the 20 mph speed limit posted on the MUT that I ride on, and that the ebike itself needs to be regulated to make sure I cannot be a bad actor and go over the speed limit.

Well, the roads in the county park near that MUT have a posted speed limit of 15 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.75 (75% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those roads.

The trails in the that county park have a posted speed limit of 10 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.5 (50% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those trails.

So, my ride this morning would really need three different ebikes. I would also need a support crew following me with the different ebikes so I could switch back and forth.

And how do we regulate the ebikes for a reasonable speed for the congestion when there are walkers in each direction, dog walkers in each direction, mobility impaired people in each direction? I just do not see regulation as a viable option. At some point you have to trust that I will do the right thing, with spot enforcement and peer pressure to help guide folks to do the right thing.

If I can be trusted to responsibly ride my class 1 ebike on the 15 mph roads and 10 mph trails, why is it illogical to trust that I would ride an unrestricted ebike on trails with a 20 mph limit?

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

Please read my Petition for Preemption forum on EBR. I am engaged with the CPSC to preempt the 3-class legislation because it violates interstate commerce laws as well as every element of common sense you pointed out.

I encourage ebikers to call People for Bikes and voice their objections to the 3-class legislation.

If it gets preempted the definition just goes back to the HR727 2002 definition of a LSEB as just a bike! And states were supposed to regulate them as a bike.

 

[Ken M]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street wits 2 hospitals and 4 school on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. Now where did I see anyone obeying speed limits 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits Or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

So you are one of the few that think assist cut-offs are the right solution.

What is always going to be the major determinate of top speed on any bike is going downhill. I suggest reading the LSEB definition in HR727 - It was written by a PhD engineer and while it may seem strange the way he constrains the power above 20mph is was a great way to limit speed without the brain dead assist cut-offs that Europe adopted and the paid People for Bikes to lobby state by state to adopt. That is not what a good bike advocasy group would do and I can never get a representative of PFBs to comment which speaks volumes to me (they know it garbage...sorry but it just is).

 

[Ken M]

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

Good response as that was a nonsensical response - justifying the assists limits because some don't obey speed limits. Irrational!!!

 

[mjeds]

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

I believe in personal responsibility, I ride my motorcycle and bike and drive my car within the current laws and regulations. While I will exceed the speed limit to pass someone, 98% of the time I am the slow moron in the right lane at or slightly below the speed limit.

I know that the time I save doing 85 vs. 65 is so minimal that it makes no sense to be mr. fast and furious. I raced cars for years, auto-cross and drag, I do it on a track and obey the laws on the road.

No different on my motorcycle or on my bike. There are no bike speed limits on the bikeways that I use, however I am smart enough to realize there are other cyclists and pedestrians on these pathways and doing 30+ is dangerous. But on the roads with cars, I maintain the fastest speed I can under the posted limit. When I am using 25mph residential streets I do 25mph or less on the bike.

I don’t believe in making laws to protect people from themselves, I do believe in personal responsibly and obeying the laws, and if one doesn’t like the law using the appropriate process to get it changed.

However I am in the minority, common sense is the enemy in todays society, so we have laws to protect people from their own stupidity.

 

[Ken M]

I believe in personal responsibility, I ride my motorcycle and bike and drive my car within the current laws and regulations. While I will exceed the speed limit to pass someone, 98% of the time I am the slow moron in the right lane at or slightly below the speed limit.

I know that the time I save doing 85 vs. 65 is so minimal that it makes no sense to be mr. fast and furious. I raced cars for years, auto-cross and drag, I do it on a track and obey the laws on the road.

No different on my motorcycle or on my bike. There are no bike speed limits on the bikeways I that I use, however I am smart enough to realize there are other cyclists and pedestrians on these pathways and doing 30+ is dangerous. But on the roads with cars, I maintain the fastest speed I can under the posted limit. When I am using 25mph residential streets I do 25mph or less on the bike.

I don’t believe in making laws to protect people from themselves, I do believe in personal responsibly and obeying the laws, and if one doesn’t like the law using the appropriate process to get it changed.

However I am in the minority, common sense is the enemy in todays society, so we have laws to protect people from their own stupidity.

Sadly we have bike ?advocasy" organizations like People for Bikes that totally disagrees with your "responsibility" position. I fully agree with you that 99% of time bike riding speed is simply controlled by the environment and path being ridden. But for some reason People for Bikes accepted lobby money from Europe to try to spoon feed state by state with assist limits claiming they were about clarity and safety. Laughable and it was mainly about harmonization with the EU on ebikes over 20mph so future registration and insurance can get their foot in the door on bikes.

Think about this for a second. PFBs created the class 3 regulation and state the class 3 ebikes should only be allowed on roads or road side paths but they have a throttle which all other vehicles using that infrastructure have. Wouldn't you think one person in that room would have said that makes no sense whatsoever except they wanted a perfect harmonization with the EU speed pedelec regulation (which in Europe requires registration and insurance). I have really been hammering PFBs in the forums but no one there seems to want to step into the debate on the class system they created. That is very very telling in my opinion.

 

[mjeds]

Good response as that was a nonsensical response - justifying the assists limits because some don't obey speed limits. Irrational!!!

What is nonsensical about it? People don’t obey speed limits, be it in a car or on a bike way. So what good is putting up speed limit signs on a bikeway? Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to monitor it?

do you think they are going to create a bike police division to patrol these bikeways and harass people that are going over the posted limit?

there is nothing nonsensical about my post, the population in general does not follow posted traffic limits, people are going to do what they are going to do and hard hammer enforcing it isn’t going to accomplish anything to stop it, it is just another way for the Government to fill its coffers with money reaped from hard working tax paying citizens..

personal responsibility and common sense laws are a thing of the past.. Today it is all about making laws to protect the stupid behaviors of the masses and collecting fines from those that disobey.

 

[Ken M]

What is nonsensical about it? People don’t obey speed limits, be it in a car or on a bike way. So what good is putting up speed limit signs on a bikeway? Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to monitor it?

do you think they are going to create a bike police division to patrol these bikeways and harass people that are going over the posted limit?

there is nothing nonsensical about my post, the population in general does not follow posted traffic limits, people are going to do what they are going to do and hard hammer enforcing it isn’t going to accomplish anything to stop it, it is just another way for the Government to fill its coffers with money reaped from hard working tax paying citizens..

personal responsibility and common sense laws are a thing of the past.. Today it is all about making laws to protect the stupid behaviors of the masses and collecting fines from those that disobey.

Dude, you are the one claiming the assist limits are a great solution. What about times when a rider should be going less than 20mph? So why not apply your logic to that and support lower assist limits.

I rode over 6000 miles on an ebike last year and I typically rode 22-24mph on a bike path that is noted to have a 20mph limit. OMG!!! But I only was at that speed when the path was total wide open and straight so I don't believe it was wreckless behavior.

Today I drove across Denver on I-25 which is posted at 55mph the entire way. I was going about 70mph most of the time and had more cars passing me than I passed and given the low volume it didn't feel unsafe. No one was being wreckless.

I'm sure most car owners would rather not have a 55mph assist limit on their cars but you support that nonsense on LSEBs. I just think you are in the minority on this and I'm hoping to lead an effort to kill the 3-class legislation in all the adopting states because it's garbage and it's an interstate commerce violation. The federal definition for a LSEB is not a crazy fast specification but few have even read it.