Why not speed limits?

[Browneye]

Agree with your thoughts here, but struggling on the relevance of car and motorcycle speed limits.

For instance, if you assign a 5mph speed limit to a section of popular multi use trail, and there's nobody around to enforce it, what kind of compliance would you expect? Do you think that because a speed limit has been established that authorities will just start enforcing?

Assign a section of residential street, where kids are often found playing, with a 20mph limit, and consider which of the posted speeds you are most likely to exceed. The bike trail speed limit, or the residential street? Why?

I think you're splitting hairs. If you're setting a safe speed to ride, just like any other conveyance, you either adhere or you don't, but putting additional regulations in to somehow curb the equipment just seems draconian, illogical. At least to a point. And yeah, at some level of motorization the bike ceases to be a bike, whether to be allow at all or not.

If no one is patrolling the freeway I can go 100mph in my car. [shrug] If they are I'm likely to get cited.
You're talking about a limit and enforcement like they are inextricably connected, and they're not. If limits are set and not followed then enforcement becomes necessary. Otherwise people self-police. Wherever there are rules and limits there may or many not be an enforcement element present. Does that mean you shouldn't set them anyway?

I don't know why this seems complicated to some. Must be a different mindset. I'm just not getting it.

Waterways are a another example. For inland ways they're set for safety, but even more importantly to keep wakes down so as not to upset moored watercraft. This goes right along with your paved bike path example - the limit is set for the safety of others present - which my example again was, you couldn't make 28mph on that strand if you wanted to. The speed limit is set for 10mph. If you're exceeding that, regardless of the conveyance, it's a violation.

Oh well, I'm out. Have fun with it!

 

[AHicks]

I think you're splitting hairs. If you're setting a safe speed to ride, just like any other conveyance, you either adhere or you don't, but putting additional regulations in to somehow curb the equipment just seems draconian, illogical. At least to a point. And yeah, at some level of motorization the bike ceases to be a bike, whether to be allow at all or not.

If no one is patrolling the freeway I can go 100mph in my car. [shrug] If they are I'm likely to get cited.
You're talking about a limit and enforcement like they are inextricably connected, and they're not. If limits are set and not followed then enforcement becomes necessary. Otherwise people self-police. Wherever there are rules and limits there may or many not be an enforcement element present. Does that mean you shouldn't set them anyway?

I don't know why this seems complicated to some. Must be a different mindset. I'm just not getting it.

Waterways are a another example. For inland ways they're set for safety, but even more importantly to keep wakes down so as not to upset moored watercraft. This goes right along with your paved bike path example - the limit is set for the safety of others present - which my example again was, you couldn't make 28mph on that strand if you wanted to. The speed limit is set for 10mph. If you're exceeding that, regardless of the conveyance, it's a violation.

Oh well, I'm out. Have fun with it!

Simple version of my thought. You can make all the rules you like, including speed limits. but with no enforcement/teeth to back them, they are a waste of ink/bandwidth.

Regarding water, I've lived on the water for the last 40 years and feel very safe saying no wake zones and speed limits are an absolute joke with no cops on the lake to enforce them. Add in the (clueless) weekend warriors to that idea, and you have what I see every holiday weekend. A real zoo.

 

[Alaskan]

When you are a big dog, dog eat dog works for you....not so much when you turn into an old big dog or come up lame.

 

[steve mercier]

One concern of mine is desensitization. If you're used to going say 45 mph, you're going to want to do that everywhere regardless of circumstance. Moderation to you will be say, 35 mph. Especially if you have a full suspension and all. Whereas with an e-bike that tops out at 28 mph, a moderate speed will be considerably lower.

I disagree. Some local trails are marked 10 kmph. They may be congested with dog walkers. I know how to slow down and use Eco until I am clear and then resume my 35 kmph. I do not know what kind of mindless juvenile E bike riders you fear are roaming the streets.

 

[Asher]

I disagree. Some local trails are marked 10 kmph. They may be congested with dog walkers. I know how to slow down and use Eco until I am clear and then resume my 35 kmph. I do not know what kind of mindless juvenile E bike riders you fear are roaming the streets.

Onyx RCR goes up to 60 mph. Sur Ron to 47 mph. Bunch of others go up to 35. Plenty of bike paths that aren't congested but still dangerous to do >25 mph.

 

[steve mercier]

Onyx RCR goes up to 60 mph. Sur Ron to 47 mph. Bunch of others go up to 35. Plenty of bike paths that aren't congested but still dangerous to do >25 mph.

if it goes 60 mph it is not an E bike it is an E moto

 

[Mr. Coffee]

When you are a big dog, dog eat dog works for you....not so much when you turn into an old big dog or come up lame.

No matter how big a dog you are somewhere there's going to be a much bigger dog.

 

[Asher]

if it goes 60 mph it is not an E bike it is an E moto

Names don't matter, where people ride them does.

 

[Chargeride]

Its 17mph in Europe/UK and I 'll say I have to agree, we are very over crowded and cyclists flout the law en masse.
25mph ebikes tear arsing around with shopping on the handlebars, bouncing on and off the pavement/sidewalk.
Yes you can pedal that fast...but only the fittest for short periods.
Its not a problem offroad if you are doing it right, no ones climbing steep hills faster than 17mph and you can still downhill at 45 if you want.
The 250w limit is just legal speak, thete are road legal 800W emtbs in the UK.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

15.5 mph it is.

 

[Kayakguy]

I don't think that they're entirely toothless. If you are involved in an at-fault accident (such as you t-bone a car with your e-bike), and if you are riding an e-bike that runs afoul of the regulations, I think that fact could suddenly become very important and enforceable.

Almost perfectly summarizes my accident in mid Oct. of 2020. I T-boned the car (looked very diligently, still didn't see it), so was wholly at fault. The LEO who investigated came by my house after I was home from the hospital to show me the accident report, did not cite me (the car and my ebike came through unscathed), and never questioned the class rating of the bike. The fire dept. took the bike to my house, and assured my wife that I was still alive. My auto insurance covered the first $10,000 of the medical, and did this without any hesitation.

 

[john peck]

I just don't get this focus in Class 1 - 3 and throttles. The issue is speed! Makes no difference if ebike, pedal bike, gasoline motor bike, runner or whatever. The main concern is speed and potential accidents with walkers, joggers and pedal bikers and others on the trail or roadway.
My automobile has a top speed of 154 mph. However, I can use it on any public roadway - as long as I adhere to the posted speed. Sometimes it's 70mph and other times 15mph.
The trail I often use in PA has a posted speed limit of 18mph. What difference does it make what class my bike is or whether it has a throttle - as long as I adhere to the posted speed limit?

I just ride safe & curteous & never worry about it, but then I rarely exceed 18 mph anyway.

 

[Ken M]

Long-time biker but newbie ebiker here. I agree with your question/logic here. The only thing I can think of is that regulators/lawmakers think a more 'prophylactic' approach focusing on motor size, throttle or no, etc. is easier to implement/enforce than a simple speed limit? In most cases regulators/lawmakers aren't experts in most areas they regulate, so they get input, draft legislation, etc. from some kind of 'stakeholder' or interested group. It would interesting to know who those groups are in these situations...I'm guessing some more knowledgeable folks here in these forums can provide some context for some of this.

People for Bikes accepted lobby money to push 3-class state legislation that was a big step backwards from the federal definition that was far better for the adoption rate of ebikes and was easier to enforce.

 

[Ken M]

A long time ago, the comic book industry (facing criticism over their content destroying our youth, and the prospect of government regulation) chose to regulate itself by creating the "Comics Code Authority".

Decades later, the video game industry (facing criticism over their content destroying our youth, and the prospect of government regulation) chose to regulate itself by creating the "Entertainment Software Association", and created ratings like M for Mature, T for Teen, E for Everyone, etc.

Here, the industry regulating itself isn't practical because of interactions with other types of vehicles, dealing with insurance companies when accidents occur, and a hundred other reasons. My take on this is that rather than being regulated in an inconsistent way across different jurisdictions the e-bike industry decided to be proactive and create regulations that were more predictable and consistent. That's a win for manufacturers who can then sell the same product almost anywhere in the U.S., and a win for consumers who want regulation to be understandable and predictable. It would be a hassle if you bought an e-bike in one state, and then discovered (while travelling, or after moving to a new state) that it wasn't street legal in neighbouring jurisdictions, for example. This helps avoid that.

Regulation is undesirable for people who assemble their own e-bikes and don't want to be constrained by max speeds, max wattages, etc. But as e-bike sales grow, that's a declining part of the market overall, I suspect. And since regulation is likely inevitable, so having it be consistent is a win IMO.

I say that as someone in Canada who *wishes* we had consistent regulations from one province to the next!

I hope you were referring to the 3-class legislation promoted by People for Bikes as being "proactive." The federal definition for a Low Speed Electric Bicycle (LSEB) in HR727 2002 is a far better definition and the CPSC is supposed to control 1st Sale compliance in all 50 states. The garbage being pushed by People for Bikes is nothing but a regulatory capture effort via industry lobby money that wants to have some control of adoption rate (too many riders and big industries are impacted...that is just a fact).

 

[Ken M]

Right, this is what I was assuming. But my question is what exactly the bike manufacturers and their lobbyists gain from this approach? Are they assuming (maybe rightly) that there must be some regulation of these things and that this sort of regulatory approach is the lesser of the evils? Or ?

Do not support the 3-class legislation - it will just lead to registration and insurance requirements on class 3 ebikes as it did in Europe. The original federal LSEB definition in HR727 in 2002 is far better and simpler product definition for sale in all 50 states and the CPSC is supposed to own 1st sale compliance....not the states (they are doing their typical regulatory capture efforts).

 

[Widgets]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the 3 classes vs just having speed limits, or maybe the problem is that I do.

It seems like the main argument is that I cannot be trusted to follow the 20 mph speed limit posted on the MUT that I ride on, and that the ebike itself needs to be regulated to make sure I cannot be a bad actor and go over the speed limit.

Well, the roads in the county park near that MUT have a posted speed limit of 15 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.75 (75% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those roads.

The trails in the that county park have a posted speed limit of 10 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.5 (50% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those trails.

So, my ride this morning would really need three different ebikes. I would also need a support crew following me with the different ebikes so I could switch back and forth.

And how do we regulate the ebikes for a reasonable speed for the congestion when there are walkers in each direction, dog walkers in each direction, mobility impaired people in each direction? I just do not see regulation as a viable option. At some point you have to trust that I will do the right thing, with spot enforcement and peer pressure to help guide folks to do the right thing.

If I can be trusted to responsibly ride my class 1 ebike on the 15 mph roads and 10 mph trails, why is it illogical to trust that I would ride an unrestricted ebike on trails with a 20 mph limit?

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

 

[AHicks]

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

Biking legal beagles in Florida agree with this concept 100%. Went to it universally 2 years ago. They recognize the 3 class system, but have chosen to ignore it completely! If you are on an e-bike, you can ride it anywhere you can ride a bicycle - legally.

No more confusion.... K.I.S.S.!!!!

 

[mjeds]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street with 2 hospitals and 4 schools on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. No-where did I see anyone obeying speed limits; 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

 

[Widgets]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street wits 2 hospitals and 4 school on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. Now where did I see anyone obeying speed limits 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits Or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

 

[Ken M]

I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the 3 classes vs just having speed limits, or maybe the problem is that I do.

It seems like the main argument is that I cannot be trusted to follow the 20 mph speed limit posted on the MUT that I ride on, and that the ebike itself needs to be regulated to make sure I cannot be a bad actor and go over the speed limit.

Well, the roads in the county park near that MUT have a posted speed limit of 15 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.75 (75% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those roads.

The trails in the that county park have a posted speed limit of 10 mph. I cannot be trusted to maintain that speed limit either, so we need a class 0.5 (50% of class 1) regulation to allow ebikes on those trails.

So, my ride this morning would really need three different ebikes. I would also need a support crew following me with the different ebikes so I could switch back and forth.

And how do we regulate the ebikes for a reasonable speed for the congestion when there are walkers in each direction, dog walkers in each direction, mobility impaired people in each direction? I just do not see regulation as a viable option. At some point you have to trust that I will do the right thing, with spot enforcement and peer pressure to help guide folks to do the right thing.

If I can be trusted to responsibly ride my class 1 ebike on the 15 mph roads and 10 mph trails, why is it illogical to trust that I would ride an unrestricted ebike on trails with a 20 mph limit?

I think a single unified definition of an ebike that would classify it as a bike would be the best solution for everyone. Too bad we couldn't have a system like that... Wait, we already had it before this 3 class nonsense.

Please read my Petition for Preemption forum on EBR. I am engaged with the CPSC to preempt the 3-class legislation because it violates interstate commerce laws as well as every element of common sense you pointed out.

I encourage ebikers to call People for Bikes and voice their objections to the 3-class legislation.

If it gets preempted the definition just goes back to the HR727 2002 definition of a LSEB as just a bike! And states were supposed to regulate them as a bike.