Why not speed limits?

[Ken M]

Who obeys speed limits? Less than 10% of the population.

Speed limit on the road outside the street I live on is 30mph, there are “this is your speed” radar And cameras all up and down that road. I see people doing 55-65 in this 30mph zone all day long. I see it come up on the posted ”this is your speed” sign. I do 30mph and get yelled at and honked at and flipped off All the time.

It is a residential street wits 2 hospitals and 4 school on the 2 mile stretch but does anyone care? No.

Just spent the last week traveling for work, TX, NC, NY, GA, PA. Now where did I see anyone obeying speed limits 10 over is the norm, 20 over is the norm, no one obeys limits Or no right turn signs or pedestrian right of way signs, or anything else. So posting speed limits on bike trails is pointless especially since here will be no enforcement of those speeds and the riders know it.

So you are one of the few that think assist cut-offs are the right solution.

What is always going to be the major determinate of top speed on any bike is going downhill. I suggest reading the LSEB definition in HR727 - It was written by a PhD engineer and while it may seem strange the way he constrains the power above 20mph is was a great way to limit speed without the brain dead assist cut-offs that Europe adopted and the paid People for Bikes to lobby state by state to adopt. That is not what a good bike advocasy group would do and I can never get a representative of PFBs to comment which speaks volumes to me (they know it garbage...sorry but it just is).

 

[Ken M]

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

Good response as that was a nonsensical response - justifying the assists limits because some don't obey speed limits. Irrational!!!

 

[mjeds]

Are you saying that speed limits don't work for bikes and the regulation and speed limitations are acceptable? That same argument must also apply to the manually powered bikes. To ride on those trails they need the gearing and pace limited such that they cannot exceed the speeds.

And you point out that speed limits are not working for cars. Would you support a similar class system for motor vehicles? A class for vehicles that are only allowed on the highways, another class for normal roads, and a class for residential streets? Or should we strive to bring back some personal responsibility? You choose how to drive your car or ride your bike.

I believe in personal responsibility, I ride my motorcycle and bike and drive my car within the current laws and regulations. While I will exceed the speed limit to pass someone, 98% of the time I am the slow moron in the right lane at or slightly below the speed limit.

I know that the time I save doing 85 vs. 65 is so minimal that it makes no sense to be mr. fast and furious. I raced cars for years, auto-cross and drag, I do it on a track and obey the laws on the road.

No different on my motorcycle or on my bike. There are no bike speed limits on the bikeways that I use, however I am smart enough to realize there are other cyclists and pedestrians on these pathways and doing 30+ is dangerous. But on the roads with cars, I maintain the fastest speed I can under the posted limit. When I am using 25mph residential streets I do 25mph or less on the bike.

I don’t believe in making laws to protect people from themselves, I do believe in personal responsibly and obeying the laws, and if one doesn’t like the law using the appropriate process to get it changed.

However I am in the minority, common sense is the enemy in todays society, so we have laws to protect people from their own stupidity.

 

[Ken M]

I believe in personal responsibility, I ride my motorcycle and bike and drive my car within the current laws and regulations. While I will exceed the speed limit to pass someone, 98% of the time I am the slow moron in the right lane at or slightly below the speed limit.

I know that the time I save doing 85 vs. 65 is so minimal that it makes no sense to be mr. fast and furious. I raced cars for years, auto-cross and drag, I do it on a track and obey the laws on the road.

No different on my motorcycle or on my bike. There are no bike speed limits on the bikeways I that I use, however I am smart enough to realize there are other cyclists and pedestrians on these pathways and doing 30+ is dangerous. But on the roads with cars, I maintain the fastest speed I can under the posted limit. When I am using 25mph residential streets I do 25mph or less on the bike.

I don’t believe in making laws to protect people from themselves, I do believe in personal responsibly and obeying the laws, and if one doesn’t like the law using the appropriate process to get it changed.

However I am in the minority, common sense is the enemy in todays society, so we have laws to protect people from their own stupidity.

Sadly we have bike ?advocasy" organizations like People for Bikes that totally disagrees with your "responsibility" position. I fully agree with you that 99% of time bike riding speed is simply controlled by the environment and path being ridden. But for some reason People for Bikes accepted lobby money from Europe to try to spoon feed state by state with assist limits claiming they were about clarity and safety. Laughable and it was mainly about harmonization with the EU on ebikes over 20mph so future registration and insurance can get their foot in the door on bikes.

Think about this for a second. PFBs created the class 3 regulation and state the class 3 ebikes should only be allowed on roads or road side paths but they have a throttle which all other vehicles using that infrastructure have. Wouldn't you think one person in that room would have said that makes no sense whatsoever except they wanted a perfect harmonization with the EU speed pedelec regulation (which in Europe requires registration and insurance). I have really been hammering PFBs in the forums but no one there seems to want to step into the debate on the class system they created. That is very very telling in my opinion.

 

[mjeds]

Good response as that was a nonsensical response - justifying the assists limits because some don't obey speed limits. Irrational!!!

What is nonsensical about it? People don’t obey speed limits, be it in a car or on a bike way. So what good is putting up speed limit signs on a bikeway? Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to monitor it?

do you think they are going to create a bike police division to patrol these bikeways and harass people that are going over the posted limit?

there is nothing nonsensical about my post, the population in general does not follow posted traffic limits, people are going to do what they are going to do and hard hammer enforcing it isn’t going to accomplish anything to stop it, it is just another way for the Government to fill its coffers with money reaped from hard working tax paying citizens..

personal responsibility and common sense laws are a thing of the past.. Today it is all about making laws to protect the stupid behaviors of the masses and collecting fines from those that disobey.

 

[Ken M]

What is nonsensical about it? People don’t obey speed limits, be it in a car or on a bike way. So what good is putting up speed limit signs on a bikeway? Who is going to enforce it? Who is going to monitor it?

do you think they are going to create a bike police division to patrol these bikeways and harass people that are going over the posted limit?

there is nothing nonsensical about my post, the population in general does not follow posted traffic limits, people are going to do what they are going to do and hard hammer enforcing it isn’t going to accomplish anything to stop it, it is just another way for the Government to fill its coffers with money reaped from hard working tax paying citizens..

personal responsibility and common sense laws are a thing of the past.. Today it is all about making laws to protect the stupid behaviors of the masses and collecting fines from those that disobey.

Dude, you are the one claiming the assist limits are a great solution. What about times when a rider should be going less than 20mph? So why not apply your logic to that and support lower assist limits.

I rode over 6000 miles on an ebike last year and I typically rode 22-24mph on a bike path that is noted to have a 20mph limit. OMG!!! But I only was at that speed when the path was total wide open and straight so I don't believe it was wreckless behavior.

Today I drove across Denver on I-25 which is posted at 55mph the entire way. I was going about 70mph most of the time and had more cars passing me than I passed and given the low volume it didn't feel unsafe. No one was being wreckless.

I'm sure most car owners would rather not have a 55mph assist limit on their cars but you support that nonsense on LSEBs. I just think you are in the minority on this and I'm hoping to lead an effort to kill the 3-class legislation in all the adopting states because it's garbage and it's an interstate commerce violation. The federal definition for a LSEB is not a crazy fast specification but few have even read it.

 

[J.R.]

Dude, you are the one claiming the assist limits are a great solution. What about times when a rider should be going less than 20mph? So why not apply your logic to that and support lower assist limits.

I rode over 6000 miles on an ebike last year and I typically rode 22-24mph on a bike path that is noted to have a 20mph limit. OMG!!! But I only was at that speed when the path was total wide open and straight so I don't believe it was wreckless behavior.

Today I drove across Denver on I-25 which is posted at 55mph the entire way. I was going about 70mph most of the time and had more cars passing me than I passed and given the low volume it didn't feel unsafe. No one was being wreckless.

I'm sure most car owners would rather not have a 55mph assist limit on their cars but you support that nonsense on LSEBs. I just think you are in the minority on this and I'm hoping to lead an effort to kill the 3-class legislation in all the adopting states because it's garbage and it's an interstate commerce violation. The federal definition for a LSEB is not a crazy fast specification but few have even read it.

You are the poster child of reckless. Or as you say wreckless You prove the argument ebikers can't be trusted to either obey path speed limits or local laws for allowable access. Amazing.

Thread question: Why not speed limits?
Answer:

I rode over 6000 miles on an ebike last year and I typically rode 22-24mph on a bike path that is noted to have a 20mph limit. OMG!!! But I only was at that speed when the path was total wide open and straight so I don't believe it was wreckless behavior. Ken M

2 years of work to open paths and trails. The biggest concern of regulators, managers and the public? Speed by people ignoring the regulations. The evidence used to make the argument? Public statements by people like Ken M and YouTube videos.

60 mph on a community bike path.

Stop signs? No matter. Children? No matter. Ped crosswalks? No matter. Blind curves? No matter. Keeping to the right of center?

Open YouTube and type in the search: "fast ebike ride". That's all legislators, regulators, land managers and law enforcement have to do to justify banning us.

 

[Ken M]

You are the poster child of reckless. Or as you say wreckless You prove the argument ebikers can't be trusted to either obey path speed limits or local laws for allowable access. Amazing.

Thread question: Why not speed limits?
Answer:


2 years of work to open paths and trails. The biggest concern of regulators, managers and the public? Speed by people ignoring the regulations. The evidence used to make the argument? Public statements by people like Ken M and YouTube videos.

60 mph on a community bike path.

Stop signs? No matter. Children? No matter. Ped crosswalks? No matter. Blind curves? No matter. Keeping to the right of center?

Open YouTube and type in the search: "fast ebike ride". That's all legislators, regulators, land managers and law enforcement have to do to justify banning us.

Wow. I rode a Polaris Diesel that is a 100% CPSC compliant ebike that provide some assist past 20mph but tapers off at about 25mph. I rode it on open stretches at 22-24mph max and you are making me out to be some kind of major outlaw that is going to harm ebike access when I know road bike riders that can ride at those speeds without assist motors for many miles. Before I even started riding ebikes I use to ride those same trails at the same speed on my road bike but with a lot more effort. You are ignoring facts in your argument. You also ignore that when going down a hill virtually every biker can easily ride well past 30mph and yet for decades we have assumed they are going to continue to ride at a safe responsible speed and 99% do.

"Two years of effort to open paths and trails".... The speed concern has always been a concern about bikes on a Multi-use paths. Funny that horses have been clocked going over 50mph but their top speed is not a concern to those managers and public. A professional biker was able to sustain 33mph for an hour. Worlds best sprinters can hit top running speeds nearing 28mph. Should we be concerned about their potential top speeds on MUPs? It's tiring to deal with those that are not dealing with facts and no way should a few idiots on crazy fast NON-LEGAL ?ebikes? ruin access for anyone.

The average horse weighs about 1,600lbs and gallops around 28mph. Ask those land managers if they think a 28mph bikers will hurt them as much as getting hit by a someone riding a horse at that speed. This debate should not be singularly focus on ebikers going over 15 or 20mph on trails. If they are so concerned about walker/pedestrian safety then ban all bikes and horses from MUPs and don't just claim it's due to ebikes. That is just nonsense.

Also you touch on respecting regulations. What about the ???? if the 3-class legislation violate interstate commerce laws by being "more stringent" than the federal LSEB definition in HR727? Does that matter or just the regulations you care about?????

 

[AHicks]

Horses? Really? Kinda like my wife. When she starts loosing an argument, rather than face the loss, she switches topics to one she has a better chance of winning....

 

[J.R.]

Wow. I rode a Polaris Diesel that is a 100% CPSC compliant ebike that provide some assist past 20mph but tapers off at about 25mph. I rode it on open stretches at 22-24mph max and you are making me out to be some kind of major outlaw that is going to harm ebike access when I know road bike riders that can ride at those speeds without assist motors for many miles. You are ignoring facts in your argument. You also ignore that when going down a hill virtually every biker can easily ride well past 30mph and yet for decades we have assumed they are going to continue to ride at a safe responsible speed and 99% do.

"Two years of effort to open paths and trails".... The speed concern has always been a concern about bikes on a Multi-use paths. Funny that horses have been clocked going over 50mph but their top speed is not a concern to those managers and public. It's tiring to deal with those that are not dealing with facts and no way should a few idiots on crazy fast NON-LEGAL ?ebikes? ruin access for anyone.

Also you touch on respecting regulations. What about the ???? if the 3-class legislation violate interstate commerce laws by being "more stringent" than the federal LSEB definition in HR727? Does that matter or just the regulations you care about?????

What about them?! What about him?! Its not about road bikes. It's not about spandex wearing cyclists, that you continually denigrate. It's not about mythical horses. It's about one thing, ebikes. You just don't understand, it's not a winning argument pointing at the next guy and saying he broke the rules, why can't I? "Officer, I was just going along with traffic!" Guilty statement.

“Ethical behaviour is doing the right thing when no one else is watching—even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”
-American author and philosopher Aldo Leopold

 

[Ken M]

Horses? Really? Kinda like my wife. When she starts loosing an argument, rather than face the loss, she switches topics to one she has a better chance of winning....

Loosing an argument??? JR sends a video of a rider on an illegal ebike riding at illegal speeds and that is relevant as a reason we need the 3-class legislation that is still not adopted by over 20 states and those states are not having any issues. I bought up the horse because it's no more non-sensical that his video as proof we can no rely on personal responsibility for people to obey the use laws when riding a bike.

Here is a factual statement/request I made to the CPSC so maybe you can try not be like your wife and switch the topic. Tell me why this is not a reason to preempt the state 3-class legislation?

CPSC rule making decision request to preempt legal standing of 3-class state ebike legislation given the interstate commerce impact(s) resulting from more stringent requirements than the CPSC federal definition and CPSC safety requirements. The expressed / explicit preemption clause of HR727 is violated when the states require by law the more stringent elements. The legally powerful expressed / explicit preemption and previous CPSC decision precedence exists to support this preemption request.

Please avoid the BS on how you know trail access will be lost if the 3-class legislation is tossed.

 

[J.R.]

Loosing an argument??? JR sends a video of a rider on an illegal ebike riding at illegal speeds and that is relevant as a reason we need the 3-class legislation

Um, no. I know you think this forum exists for you and your rants, but this isn't one of your crazy threads. The OP asked about speed limits, not about your pet project.

 

[Ken M]

Um, no. I know you think this forum exists for you and your rants, but this isn't one of your crazy threads. The OP asked about speed limits, not about your pet project.

Huh??? I'm not ranting. I just asked if you had a specific reason why the 3-class legislation should not be preempted? It sure seems to be more stringent that the federal LSEB definition which is in direct violation of the preemption clause is HR727. It's not important as the petition had to re-submitted to clarify that a rulemaking decisition specific to LSEBs was being requested. It was re-submitted this morning and messages left with 3 CPSC representatives involved with the petition. I just hope they will make a decision based on the laws as the stand and not worry about trail access as part of the concerns with tossing out 3-class.

 

[mjeds]

Dude, you are the one claiming the assist limits are a great solution. What about times when a rider should be going less than 20mph? So why not apply your logic to that and support lower assist limits.

I rode over 6000 miles on an ebike last year and I typically rode 22-24mph on a bike path that is noted to have a 20mph limit. OMG!!! But I only was at that speed when the path was total wide open and straight so I don't believe it was wreckless behavior.

Today I drove across Denver on I-25 which is posted at 55mph the entire way. I was going about 70mph most of the time and had more cars passing me than I passed and given the low volume it didn't feel unsafe. No one was being wreckless.

I'm sure most car owners would rather not have a 55mph assist limit on their cars but you support that nonsense on LSEBs. I just think you are in the minority on this and I'm hoping to lead an effort to kill the 3-class legislation in all the adopting states because it's garbage and it's an interstate commerce violation. The federal definition for a LSEB is not a crazy fast specification but few have even read it.

seriously? where did I post ANYTHING about being in support of assist limits? please show me.. I made no such post, I claimed no such support.

I simply stated that I believe that posted speed signs are pointless, as car drivers don't obey them so cyclists won't and don't.

I don't believe in assist limits anymore than I believe in speed governors on cars, I believe people need to be responsible for themselves and their actions and I have said as much multiple times in this thread, you are the one that is choosing to read into things that I did not say. Seems to me you have a comprehension problem.

 

[Ken M]

seriously? where did I post ANYTHING about being in support of assist limits? please show me.. I made no such post, I claimed no such support.

I simply stated that I believe that posted speed signs are pointless, as car drivers don't obey them so cyclists won't and either.

I don't believe in assist limits anymore than I believe in speed governors on cars, I believe people need to be responsible for themselves and their actions and I have said as much multiple times in this thread, you are the one that is choosing to read into things that I did not say. Seems to me you have a comprehension problem.

My mistake...I'm going to fast and I must have misread your intent. I honestly thought you were against personal responsibly when it comes to following speed limits.

 

[mjeds]

My mistake...I'm going to fast and I must have misread your intent. I honestly thought you were against personal responsibly when it comes to following speed limits.

no, I am simply saying that posted speed limits are pointless, no one obeys them. as for assist limits, also IMO pointless because they can easily be removed, I've done it to all my ebikes.

I ride smart, IMO, on bike pathways that are cluttered with other riders and pedestrians I stay around 15mph, on empty paths I will go as fast as I think is safe for the road conditions (a lot of the paths around here are pot hole ridden and broken). On a roadway with cars I will go as fast as I can to stay with the flow of traffic.

none of the dedicated bike paths I take currently have posted speed limits, but they do have other rules that are always ignored.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I think that it is not accurate to say that speed limits are completely ignored by everyone. While I do exceed the speed limit in my car, I try not to go more than 5mph or so over the speed limit. Excessive speeding and weaving through traffic will draw the attention of law enforcement. I also drive at a safe speed for the conditions, so I slow down in the rain and snow. I believe that if there were actually no speed limits, drivers would go much faster than when speed limits are posted. I could be wrong, but you hear about people driving 200 mph on the Autobahn in Germany.

 

[Widgets]

I could be wrong, but you hear about people driving 200 mph on the Autobahn in Germany.

In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.

That said, in my first day back in the good old USA I saw more accidents on my drive to work than I saw in three and half months I. Germany. They are way more responsible drivers than we are. I felt safer on the Autobahn than I do on the roads here.

While in Germany I did read in the Stars and Stripes (US military paper) about a 200 car accident in the fog on the Autobann, caused by the excessive speed. Turn the page and there was a story about a 200 car accident in the fog on the interstate near San Francisco, caused by the heavy fog. Our national mantra that speed is bad keeps us blind to common sense. Both accidents were caused by speed unsafe for the conditions, but they were reported differently due to the perspective that the paper was trying to get me to believe.

 

[mjeds]

I think that it is not accurate to say that speed limits are completely ignored by everyone. While I do exceed the speed limit in my car, I try not to go more than 5mph or so over the speed limit. Excessive speeding and weaving through traffic will draw the attention of law enforcement. I also drive at a safe speed for the conditions, so I slow down in the rain and snow. I believe that if there were actually no speed limits, drivers would go much faster than when speed limits are posted. I could be wrong, but you hear about people driving 200 mph on the Autobahn in Germany.

the last statistics I saw from the US NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) in 2019 stated that only 32% of drivers obey posted limits, only 48% understood the "Basic Speed Law" and 91% stated they normally drive faster than the posted limit by 5mph or more.

I think it is pretty accurate to say that posted limits are ignored (in the USA) by everyone seeing as 91% of people surveyed are openly admitting that they ignore them

 

[mjeds]

In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.

That said, in my first day back in the good old USA I saw more accidents on my drive to work than I saw in three and half months I. Germany. They are way more responsible drivers than we are. I felt safer on the Autobahn than I do on the roads here.

While in Germany I did read in the Stars and Stripes (US military paper) about a 200 car accident in the fog on the Autobann, caused by the excessive speed. Turn the page and there was a story about a 200 car accident in the fog on the interstate near San Francisco, caused by the heavy fog. Our national mantra that speed is bad keeps us blind to common sense. Both accidents were caused by speed unsafe for the conditions, but they were reported differently due to the perspective that the paper was trying to get me to believe.

speed unsafe for conditions and differences in speed are the issue IMO.

500 cars all doing 80 mph is not an issue. throw a couple of cars into the mix doing 10 over that and weaving in and out of traffic or doing 10 or more under causing others to go around them, is a recipe for an accident.