Why not speed limits?

[Ken M]

This sums up the problem with engaging you. You have zero understanding with how the government fundamentally works around these issues. A fed agency saying "for safety purposes these are not motor vehicles" does and means nothing when you're talking to your local county park department. You cling to this idea that some fed agency definition just solves everything and nobody can argue with it and it is now forced on every level of government from the states down to counties down to towns and all branches therein. That is not reality. It doesn't resemble reality. It doesn't resemble reality out of the corner of your eye in bad lighting during a dust storm.



Some managing agencies do consider it too fast. Hence access still not being universal.

I accept I could be wrong but why then did the Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood publicly state after review the federal statutes that he determine that the intent was for a LSEB to be just a bike?

I understand the complexity of the government power distribution but the legal arguments I've read sure seem to point that the federal safety agencies control what is compliant thru 1st sale as a baseline minimum via the commerce clause which is a federal enumerated right. I think this is actually a popular concept as it does enable product harmonization for economies of scale (ie same products are compliant for sale in every state). On products like bikes the federal definition typically controls compliance and the states focus on "use" regulation.

I fully agree that a state or local municipality has the power to ban all bikes from any path but I do question if they can say ban say a mountain bike from a path that allows road bikes. I think they have to use regulate what is defined as a compliant bike as a bike and not parse by the local view of what is an acceptable bike.

Right now in Colorado our 3-class regulation requires electric cut-off brakes or something that ensures motor power is not allowed while braking. I have both a Haibike model with a Yamaha drive system and one with a Bosch drive system and both do not have ebrakes (if I'm at a stop light with the brakes applied and I put torque into the crank the motor provides power while the brakes are applied). The CPSC does not require ebrakes so these are sold legally here but in reality I'm not riding a legal compliant bike here and Haibike's US sales headquarters is in Colorado. How does this happen? Because the 3-class system was not thought out. Seems to me it only works if the 3-class system is adopted at the federal level to control 1st sale compliance and use compliance as they simply are not the same thing. I think California and Minnesota also require ebrakes on all ebikes.

What I don't understand is that everyone seems to take offense to bringing this up? I have no clue if I'm right but there certainly seems to be a problem that is being ignored (just blaming lack of enforcement is not the right answer).

 

[Ken M]

This sums up the problem with engaging you. You have zero understanding with how the government fundamentally works around these issues. A fed agency saying "for safety purposes these are not motor vehicles" does and means nothing when you're talking to your local county park department. You cling to this idea that some fed agency definition just solves everything and nobody can argue with it and it is now forced on every level of government from the states down to counties down to towns and all branches therein. That is not reality. It doesn't resemble reality. It doesn't resemble reality out of the corner of your eye in bad lighting during a dust storm.



Some managing agencies do consider it too fast. Hence access still not being universal.

'Do you have any local trails you could provide the names and locations of so I could verify this information? I think the DOI order 3376 addressed a lot of this but would like to see if there are examples where that is not the case.

 

[rawlus]

yet another thread Ken has ruined.

 

[Ken M]

yet another thread Ken has ruined.

It's about Speed Limits which is obviously a question of speed limits vs assist limits. I'm pretty sure all / most of the early responses were about ebike regulations and the wide variety of opinions on them. Not sure how I can ruin the thread on the subject I tend to engage on and a lot are interested in. Obviously on this subject everyone seems to question the regulations but some love the 3-class system and some like me not so much.

 

[TS25]

I could be wrong, but you hear about people driving 200 mph on the Autobahn in Germany.

200 mph = 320 km/h. There ain't many cars or motorbikes capable to go that speed. So only very few people can drive that on the Autobahn in Germany if it's an empty road and early Sunday morning.
A number of car producers limited their cars to 250 km/h by voluntary agreement and so is my V8 BMW MY2000. Derestricted it would run app. 270 km/h. No need for that as I let it run above 140 mph (220 km/h) only for short time on an almost empty Autobahn. Only very few BMW car models can run 185 mph+ (300 km/h +) so I doubt this, especially for 1989 and 1999:
[QUOTE = widgets in #098 [/quote]
In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.

 

[TS25]

It happens. If you take part in an accident and you drove over 140 km/h (and are still alive), you are automatically guilty there. Once, I was picked up by a company car (actually, a cab on a contract) in Ruhrgebiet. The driver was going at 180 km/h on the Autobahn. At 140 km/h he took the steering wheel in both hands. I was scared but the guy was a professional.

There is a recommended max. speed of 130 km/h on the German Autobahn. About 1/3 of the German Autobahn is even limited to a lesser max. speed of 120 km/h or 100 km/h. Dense traffic limits your speed as well especially on Autobahn with only two lanes.
If you exceed the recommended max. speed of 130 km/h and are involved in a car accident, you aren't automatically "guilty".
But if you can't succeed in proving that you couldn't have avoided the accident travelling no more than 130 km/h then the risk of using your car would lead to your responsibilty for at least 1/3 of the consequences of damage even if someone jumped from another lane into your (left) lane in front of you. It's unlikely that you could successfully prove that.
So responsible driving on the Autobahn means adjust your speed to the conditions and that's what most drivers do. Free speed on the Autobahn is a myth. And it might be history soon.

So if you @Stefan Mikes are looking for a real scary speed ride on the Autobahn you better call me up soon.

 

[AstroTurf]

Bicycles, ALL, bicycles whether e or not oughta be limited to 20mph.

bring on the gov and auto brakes to maintain that…

 

[Widgets]

200 mph = 320 km/h. There ain't many cars or motorbikes capable to go that speed. So only very few people can drive that on the Autobahn in Germany if it's an empty road and early Sunday morning.
A number of car producers limited their cars to 250 km/h by voluntary agreement and so is my V8 BMW MY2000. Derestricted it would run app. 270 km/h. No need for that as I let it run above 140 mph (220 km/h) only for short time on an almost empty Autobahn. Only very few BMW car models can run 185 mph+ (300 km/h +) so I doubt this, especially for 1989 and 1999:
[quote = widgets in #098

In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.
[/QUOTE]

It was a couple of years ago... I am solid on the 185 number, but it mat have been km/h instead of mph. It would make sense that it was a European model car so km/h would be the predominant measurement.

Whatever the speed, the sentiment of my post does not change. Even 185 km/h is seen as a ludicrous speed by most here in the states. I felt safer and saw fewer accidents during my months in Europe than I see in a day back home. We are too quick to blame speed as the primary cause when something goes wrong, when it usually is a contributing effect.

 

[Ken M]

Bicycles, ALL, bicycles whether e or not oughta be limited to 20mph.

bring on the gov and auto brakes to maintain that…

What's ironic about you joking around there are some posting on these forums that would like to see mandatory auto-brakes that prevent all bikes from exceeding 20mph even downhill.

 

[jabberwocky]

What's ironic about you joking around there are some posting on these forums that would like to see mandatory auto-brakes that prevent all bikes from exceeding 20mph even downhill.

Can you link a single post by anyone suggesting anything even remotely like "all bikes should have auto brakes that prevent bikes from exceeding some speed".

 

[Ken M]

Can you link a single post by anyone suggesting anything even remotely like "all bikes should have auto brakes that prevent bikes from exceeding some speed".

All those saying that assist should just shut off at 20mph are essentially saying that because they are saying that speed is too fast for most MUPs. I agree that 20mph is too fast for many paths and many conditions but I also know that the assist speed is not the major determinate of the top speed of a bike. Riders will always have to be cognizant of personal responsibility to ride at safe speeds when they can impact other's safety. Some can't seem to live with that and support bad ideas like assist cut-offs at speeds that any rider can achieve going down a 2% grade.

Why is pointing out facts so offensive to some? If I point out that pro riders are hitting speeds of 70mph on descents and that that just good road bike riders can average over 20mph for very long distances the people supportive of ebike class system and it's assist cut-offs attack me like I'm a social media nut bag.

I don't want LSEBs to be any faster than what was deemed completely acceptable by the House and Senate back in 2002 as the equivalent of other BIKES. That makes sense to me and it worked because bikes had been around for over 100 years and I would not classify them as a problem for humanity. I just hate that 5 or 6 people at PFBs created state legislation and used lobby money to promote a system they claim was needed and some riders drank that social media crap koolaid. Go ahead and attack me but those really paying attention will see right thru it all.

 

[AstroTurf]

I don't want LSEBs to be any faster than what was deemed completely acceptable by the House and Senate back in 2002 as the equivalent of other BIKES.

what do the house and senate know about ebikes?

not a whole lot. so what does it matter what they say or do?

my momma always said: Safety is as Safety does...

wanna go fast? buy a moped, and ride on the road. not the trails.

viva la 20mph limit!!!

 

[mjeds]

200 mph = 320 km/h. There ain't many cars or motorbikes capable to go that speed. So only very few people can drive that on the Autobahn in Germany if it's an empty road and early Sunday morning.
A number of car producers limited their cars to 250 km/h by voluntary agreement and so is my V8 BMW MY2000. Derestricted it would run app. 270 km/h. No need for that as I let it run above 140 mph (220 km/h) only for short time on an almost empty Autobahn. Only very few BMW car models can run 185 mph+ (300 km/h +) so I doubt this, especially for 1989 and 1999:
[QUOTE = widgets in #098

In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.
[/QUOTE]

I suspect he meant 185kph not mph, as most cars are governed (I think around 120mph nowadays) 185kph is only 114mph. so that sounds about right if it was kph. I don't think there were any production cars used as crap box rentals that would do 185mph. Today most cars are governed not because of regulation, but because the cheap tires on them are not speed rated for anything above that, and certainly not 185mph Those types of tires cost several hundred to several thousand EACH, and you aren't finding those on your run of the mill rental cars.

 

[Ken M]

what do the house and senate know about ebikes?

not a whole lot. so what does it matter what they say or do?

my momma always said: Safety is as Safety does...

wanna go fast? buy a moped, and ride on the road. not the trails.

viva la 20mph limit!!!

The house and senate know even less about ebikes than most on this forum but the guy that wrote the federal definition was a PhD Electrical Engineer so all they had to do was vote yes which they did.

Few realize that the NHTSA was blunt about not wanting to transfer any vehicle to the CPSC that could travel faster than 20mph motor alone. So if Dr. Currie was no smarter than People for Bikes and those claiming People for Bikes drafted good state legislation he would have just written the definition with a 20mph assist cut-off. What he did was far more intellegent - he limited power above 20mph to what would sustain 20mph motor alone such that with rider effort ebikes could go faster. That provide the best performance a "low speed electric bicycle" was going to be allowed to go under CPSC control.

This is not about the desire to go "fast" as you say...it's about having an ebike with as much performance as is allowed by the federal definition. If "safety is as safety does" then riders just need to be aware of the riding conditions and trail speed limits.

FYI - the federal definition provides pretty much the same performance as a Class 3 ebike without the brain-dead cut off function that People for Bikes decided they wanted to bring here from Europe. NO ONE on this forum will ever convince me that an assist cut-off is as good as setting an assist limit above a specified speed. A rider doesn't experience that sensation of running into a wall when the assist cuts off. People on this forum have grown tired of me not giving much credit to their precious trail access that they believe was only achieved by the creation of Class 1. I understand they believe that but a LSEB as a bike provided that access long before Class 1 was ?brilliantly? defined by the intellectuals at People for Bikes.

 

[Ken M]

In 1989 and 1999 I could only get my 4 cylinder rental car to 185 mph. The BMWs would pass me like I was standing still.

I suspect he meant 185kph not mph, as most cars are governed (I think around 120mph nowadays) 185kph is only 114mph. so that sounds about right if it was kph. I don't think there were any production cars used as crap box rentals that would do 185mph. Today most cars are governed not because of regulation, but because the cheap tires on them are not speed rated for anything above that, and certainly not 185mph Those types of tires cost several hundred to several thousand EACH, and you aren't finding those on your run of the mill rental cars.
[/QUOTE]

I love that you bring up "governed" auto speeds because that is exactly what the federal definition established instead of a brain dead assist cut-off on a Low Speed Electric Bicycle. Everyone hammers me on this forum claiming I'm in favor on unrealistically fast ebikes being allowed everywhere a bike is allowed which isn't even close to reality. I'm in favor of governing power at 20mph to what would sustain that speed with the motor alone (no more) and they just allow rider effort to add to that speed. The problem is that people don't understand that the impact of aerodynamic drag which negates that assist quickly so the average top rider speed is about what a EU spec'd Class 3 or speed pedelec will do. People would rather hammer the messenger instead of actually listening to the message.

 

[Ken M]

Can you link a single post by anyone suggesting anything even remotely like "all bikes should have auto brakes that prevent bikes from exceeding some speed".

Did you see the comments a few above yours where the guy suggested auto-brakes. Maybe he was joking but there is an example for you. Some will support anything to keep all riders below 20mph.

I literally have a friend that never goes faster than 12mph because he's that scared of speed on a bike and he thinks no one should ever ride faster than him. I'm not joking about that. I have no issue if he wants to ride like a mamby pamby but to expect everyone to be limited to what he feels is safe is just a wrong mindset.

 

[AstroTurf]

yet another thread Ken has ruined.

quoted for truth!!!

 

[J.R.]

why then did the Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood publicly state after review the federal statutes that he determine that the intent was for a LSEB to be just a bike?

A simple search on the forum has you mentioning this 20 times:

Search results for query: Mississippi

electricbikereview.com

Actually the AG didn't publically state anything. Sheriff Dolph Bryan asked the AG about the legality of riding electric bikes. The question was answered by staff member James Dale in 2007! Again another opinion from an unelected beurocrat about ancient ebikes from 14 years ago and 8 years before any of the 3 Class laws were enacted. Hood's opinion today? Who knows, Hood is no longer the AG. They never commented on the federal definition.

Here's the funny part, the AG's office said:

"It is legal for a bicycle with motor attached to be ridden on the streets and highways in Mississippi. The authority creating the bike lanes would have the discretion to determine whether a bicycle with motor attached could be ridden on the bike lane."

How can that be?! They have no right to say where people can ride! A bike is a bike! Beurocrats in a basement office in DC said so

Mississippi doesn't recognize the federal regs, doesn't recognize other state's 3 Class laws. As in most things states have rights. Another theory goes down in flames

Here's the entire document:

View Document - Mississippi Attorney General Opinions

govt.westlaw.com

I shouldn't care about this topic anymore, but someone is going to get a ticket or a bike confiscated following some of the advice offered here. Before legalizing ebikes on paths and trails here the criminal charge was trespassing and carried an $800 fine.

 

[Ken M]

A simple search on the forum has you mentioning this 20 times:

Search results for query: Mississippi

electricbikereview.com

Actually the AG didn't publically state anything. Sheriff Dolph Bryan asked the AG about the legality of riding electric bikes. The question was answered by staff member James Dale in 2007! Again another opinion from an unelected beurocrat about ancient ebikes from 14 years ago and 8 years before any of the 3 Class laws were enacted. Hood's opinion today? Who knows, Hood is no longer the AG. They never commented on the federal definition.

Here's the funny part, the AG's office said:

"It is legal for a bicycle with motor attached to be ridden on the streets and highways in Mississippi. The authority creating the bike lanes would have the discretion to determine whether a bicycle with motor attached could be ridden on the bike lane."

How can that be?! They have no right to say where people can ride! A bike is a bike! Beurocrats in a basement office in DC said so

Mississippi doesn't recognize the federal regs, doesn't recognize other state's 3 Class laws. As in most things states have rights. Another theory goes down in flames

Here's the entire document:

View Document - Mississippi Attorney General Opinions

govt.westlaw.com

I shouldn't care about this topic anymore, but someone is going to get a ticket or a bike confiscated following some of the advice offered here. Before legalizing ebikes on paths and trails here the criminal charge was trespassing and carried an $800 fine.

The opinion came from the Office of The Attorney General Jim Hood. Does is really matter if an assistant drafted it?

You so conveniently omitted the meat of the decision....Here's what is written:

In order to answer your questions it must be determined whether a bicycle with a motor attached is a “motor vehicle” or retains its designation as a “bicycle”.
*1 Section 63-3-103 of the Mississippi Code provides: “Motor vehicle” means every vehicle which is self- propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails. The term“motor vehicle” shall not include electric personal assistive mobility devices.“
*1 Viewing this definition with other statutes (I assume this implies the federal statutes were considered) relating to “bicycles” it appears that a bicycle with motor attached does not lose its identity as a bicycle and become a motor vehicle.

So yes bicycles are allowed on the streets of Mississippi as all other bikes are. I have said all along that states can ban all bikes but they can not parse legal riding status by bike type. In words, they can say that mtn bikes are allowed on a path and road bikes, or LSEBs, are not allowed.

That crap at the end about having an ebike confiscated and a fined $800 is really nice hyperbole given that most likely applies to being on an illegal ebike (ie one that is not federally compliant LSEB for sale in all 50 states).

I don't sit here and claim to KNOW exactly where the fed regulations end and the state rights to regulate use begins but I do know that 99% of the time the states accept the federal safety agency definitions of products and stick only to regulating their use. In other words, if the Feds say that a LSEB is same as a bike, then it should be state use regulated just as bike. That makes perfect sense to me. It does not make sense to me that they can parse what an LSEB into 3-classes because they do not have the authority to define what can be sold.

I asked the other 49 state attorney general offices to provide an answer to the same question on LSEBs as bikes and guess how many were willing to provide a comment or answer? NONE. Lawyers are taught to never give an opinion unless money is going into their pockets. That is why their professional has such a low regard in this country.

 

[Ken M]

A simple search on the forum has you mentioning this 20 times:

Search results for query: Mississippi

electricbikereview.com

Actually the AG didn't publically state anything. Sheriff Dolph Bryan asked the AG about the legality of riding electric bikes. The question was answered by staff member James Dale in 2007! Again another opinion from an unelected beurocrat about ancient ebikes from 14 years ago and 8 years before any of the 3 Class laws were enacted. Hood's opinion today? Who knows, Hood is no longer the AG. They never commented on the federal definition.

Here's the funny part, the AG's office said:

"It is legal for a bicycle with motor attached to be ridden on the streets and highways in Mississippi. The authority creating the bike lanes would have the discretion to determine whether a bicycle with motor attached could be ridden on the bike lane."

How can that be?! They have no right to say where people can ride! A bike is a bike! Beurocrats in a basement office in DC said so

Mississippi doesn't recognize the federal regs, doesn't recognize other state's 3 Class laws. As in most things states have rights. Another theory goes down in flames

Here's the entire document:

View Document - Mississippi Attorney General Opinions

govt.westlaw.com

I shouldn't care about this topic anymore, but someone is going to get a ticket or a bike confiscated following some of the advice offered here. Before legalizing ebikes on paths and trails here the criminal charge was trespassing and carried an $800 fine.

Answer me this JR.

Why at the CPSC webinar at the end of last year did People for Bikes present 3-class legislation as "Voluntary?"

You don't think they realize the states have NO AUTHORITY to establish what is legal / compliant for 1st sale. The fact of the matter is the CPSC does not assess imported LSEBs based on compliance to 3-class. That is why there are still compliant LSEBs being imported and sold which are not legal to ride in the state they are purchased in and that is not a good thing (buyers have the right to know what they purchased is legal to ride in that state or not).

How can the top of the line Specialized class 3 road ebike be sold without a speedometer in all 50 states when some states require a speedometer on a class 3 ebike? Simple, it' because Specialized knows that the 3-class system has zero control of 1st sale. They only make the bike with a 28mph cut-off because that allows the same exact bike to be sold here as in Europe.