Who spent a lot on their E-bike? Was it worth it?

[gadgetnut]

Costs and budgets vary but the best part, and what brings us together, is not the cost but the extraordinary value these bikes bring.

I checked and both domains (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) and (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) are available.

Apparently nobody wants or is particularly interested in such websites.

I prefer to focus on joy and transformative possibility. Gosh, that reminds me, I think it's time to go for a ride.

Happy trails, everyone.

 

[The duke]

1. At the core, lithium-ion batteries are expensive per WHr. There is no getting around this. Lower bound is around 50 cents per WHr for an assembled pack, retail pricing. So for 1000 WHr which is what I would consider to be just good enough to actually go places and do things at speeds that are competitive with car travel. So that's around 500 dollars alone in the battery pack.

2. Good motors are ultimately still a lot of money. A G510.1000 from Bafang is what I would consider right around what is actually useful. So call it 600 dollars for the motor, throttle, display, etc...

3. A bike for the base will end up being somewhere around 1500 USD street price, especially if you want full suspension and components that aren't Walmart bike tier where the fork is downright dangerous, brakes that don't work properly, derailleurs that take forever to shift, etc.

4. Add 25% because of the US tariffs.

You're at 3.3k and this doesn't even include customer support, a warranty, or anything really. Let's be kind and say the model is direct to consumer with no middlemen and we only do remote support and leave LBS labor charges to the consumer. 3800 USD is around what you get.

Is the BOM cheaper? Yes. Are you actually going to get that price? I'm very doubtful about that. And before you say that the ~15% margin the ebike OEM makes is excessive, that's the price you pay for being able to actually do things like chargebacks if their support violates their warranty terms.

I will say though this makes certain assumptions like you don't want a carbon fiber frame, you don't want super high end bike components, etc. You can easily make a bike that costs 7-8k before electrification if you start going down that path.

Wow, what a great breakdown. Are those researched or 'off the top of the head'? Sure makes it seem like that resellers of chinese bikes musr have a pretty slim margin if they're using decent components.

 

[The duke]

For an amateur, you already have a lot of opinions about what is good and bad about the current state of e-bike design. You make it sound like you have ridden all of them, extensively.

I wish. Just what I read on the interwebs. Real world advice and feedback would be miles better than industry reviews

 

[6zfshdb]

What bikes did you buy after all the research?

I'm a big guy at 6' 2", 260# and often carry 30 - 40# of gear so my search was limited to brands with a 300# weight rating. I put quite a few miles on the car driving to visit dealerships so I could test ride bikes. I learned over the years from buying conventional bikes that doing so without trying them first can be a mistake. I looked at Giant, Specialized, Trek, Cannondale and a few others. I really wanted a Riese & Muller but the closest dealer was too far away and I would have had to go for one of their cargo bikes to get the weight rating I wanted.

Ultimately, I bought a Pedego Platinum Interceptor. It had all the major features I wanted including a rear hub motor, 10 speed drive train, hydraulic disc brakes and a stem height that puts me in an upright riding position. It also was one of a very few brands that offered a mag wheel option with a 400# weight rating.

I'm not your average ebike buyer though so my requirements are somewhat different than most ebike shoppers.

 

[joshuaho96]

Wow, what a great breakdown. Are those researched or 'off the top of the head'? Sure makes it seem like that resellers of chinese bikes musr have a pretty slim margin if they're using decent components.

It's researched, you can go to alibaba + em3ev + luna and various other sites. I also have tried bikes in the 1.5k range and stuff in the ~2-3k range, I'll be trying something in the 4k range soon.

The prices I'm quoting are retail, of course if you are planning on making a bike en masse you will be able to get cheaper prices, but my interpretation is you're looking for value and maybe are willing to DIY to get that lower price. Alibaba makes this pretty clear, if you're buying one bike they're going to charge you 1800 dollars for one but if you buy 500 bikes the per unit cost drops down to something like 1100. Maybe that sounds like a rip-off to you but you have to see it from the perspective of the factory, the startup cost to make a frame + a custom build for you is going to be the same whether you buy one bike or a ship full of them. When you buy that many bikes, they aren't going to customize between bikes. You're going to get the same bike and any customizations for end customers is going to be your problem.

Frankly stuff like the Stromer ST2 what you're paying for is the LBS which has to pay for some of the most expensive stuff on earth (real estate near where people live/work and labor). So you have to ask yourself how valuable that is. You do get some nicer stuff to go with it though like GPS tracking (which might have shut down now due to the end of EDGE/GPRS in the US), remote diagnostics, ECE approved integrated front and rear lights, more integrated/cleaner design, better water resistance (IPx7 instead of IPx4 like most chinese things, etc...), and maybe more refined torque sensing/delivery. This was especially noticeable before the Bafang G510.1000 was refined and the BBSHD was the best high power mid-drive that you could get from China. Cadence sensing is noticeably less refined, if you do something like lightly clown pedal while coasting with the brake sensor triggered and then release you will get jerked badly by the sudden surge of power.

 

[PDoz]

So, now that he's gone - some simple psychology / self justification.

Around here ( Australa) , renting a decent ebike seems to cost $50 an hour or $100-150 a day - mostly emtb , although prices seem similar for cruising bikes in towns with decent rail trail facilities.

So , a year into ownership of my $5 k giant , with another $1 k spent replacing worn out bits, the maths is looking fantastic!

So next time I'm asked how much - " it saves me about $100 every ride"

Oh, and Duke...sorry to tell you this, but that cheap ebike that's the same as a ride share thingy - you should have gone ride share.

 

[steve mercier]

Hi Steve. Im not comparing a bicycle to a motorcycle. Just stating that ebikes at that price range are really big boy toys with big price tags. Just trying to get a sense of what people feel is 'worth it' and what's overkill.

I agree with some of what you state but I strongly disagree that an Ebike is a toy. Tell that to someone who use one for work or commutes to work. They are often a viable alternative to combustion vehicles and they may be greener.

 

[Alaskan]

As a result of having "a big toy" I have gone from putting 15 gallons of high test in my Benz 4matic wagon every week, to fueling up every six weeks. I am saving $240 a month on gas, at least $30 on parking, another undetermined amount on wear and tear and maintenance...probably close to $400 per month conservatively = $4,800 per year.

All of that is great but even without the savings, I would still be riding my "toy" for the health benefits, the vitality I feel and the sheer joy of being alive and physically capable. Someone please tell me what that is worth.

 

[The duke]

I agree with some of what you state but I strongly disagree that an Ebike is a toy. Tell that to someone who use one for work or commutes to work. They are often a viable alternative to combustion vehicles and they may be greener.

Point taken. I was speaking from a purely personal standpoint....it'll be a toy to me. I conpletely understand that some people need one out of necessity. Be it getting to work where there's no parking, rehabilitation from an injury or as their only way to stay active. I realize now that perspectives can vary widely here.

 

[steve mercier]

Ahh yes perspectives. We got rid of our second car and that is a huge savings . One could buy a premium bike for every day of the week and still save. On the other hand it takes time to dress for inclement weather and if I get struck by a distracted driver it will likely change my perspective.

 

[joshuaho96]

Point taken. I was speaking from a purely personal standpoint....it'll be a toy to me. I conpletely understand that some people need one out of necessity. Be it getting to work where there's no parking, rehabilitation from an injury or as their only way to stay active. I realize now that perspectives can vary widely here.

I think even if you factor in plentiful parking there is value to commuting to work by ebike instead of a gas car. If you work a normal office job you are going to almost overwhelmingly commute during peak hours, which means a lot of stop and go traffic even if you aren't crawling along the highway at ~10-20 mph. If you're driving less than 10 miles it is highly unlikely you are going to get the oil hot which means the gasoline and condensation that builds up from a cold start in your oil isn't going to evaporate off, if you drive like that all the time you need to adhere to extreme duty maintenance cycles which means halving the fluid change intervals on just about every major fluid like engine oil, transmission oil, differential oil, coolant, etc...

Your fuel economy is also especially bad due to the need to run the engine rich on cold starts as fuel atomization is really bad.

Even if you have plentiful parking at home and at work if you live in a major metro area like LA or the SF Bay Area traffic is a major concern as well. Most people live within 10 miles of work but that 10 mile drive goes from 20 minutes to 45-60 minutes due to traffic. On an ebike I literally don't care about traffic at all because you can utilize bike lanes and bike trails to get to work and bypass all of the car traffic. Most people are willing to pay a lot of money to be near work, rents for any kind of residence near major employers are often astronomic. In that regard the argument for a good bike is economic. You can live a little further out and save a good amount of money for the same square footage of house/apartment/condo while keeping a reliable ~30 minute ebike commute instead of a highly variable 20-60 minute car commute.

At this point I see ebike commuting as something that makes economic sense, it's much cheaper than buying an electric car and replacing my current car is going to cost a lot more money than just buying an ebike and driving my car a lot less than before. The most important thing to make this actually make economic sense at this point is to not get badly injured in the course of commuting. This is easy to achieve on bike trails where there are no cars so all that is needed to avoid injury is to avoid oncoming bikers and pedestrians and slow down when needed. This is not that hard and even if you collide with someone else on a bike realistically as long as you were geared up for it you will just be shaken and sore for a while but that's probably it. If you get run over by a car you will probably be unable to work for months if not years or even the rest of your life.

Edit: I also forgot to mention this but driving during commute hours is much more dangerous as well, people usually are tired both at the start and end of the work day because the 9-5 schedule does not work for people that are late to rise nor early risers, people that tend to sleep in will be tired driving in the morning and people that like to get up well before 8 AM will be tired in the afternoon.

 

[elliot friedman]

Laid out ~4k for mine and worth every penny.......I feel like it gave me a new lease on life!

And I'm not done spending, it has become a passion and I'm loving it.

 

[Chopperbill]

I don’t have much money, but I don’t owe anyone. Anything above the price of my RadRover is not a consideration. The Rad is probably one of the best purchases I have made. At 73 years old I still ride my 28 year old Harley, but my smiles are just as big on my RadRover.

 

[The duke]

I think even if you factor in plentiful parking there is value to commuting to work by ebike instead of a gas car. If you work a normal office job you are going to almost overwhelmingly commute during peak hours, which means a lot of stop and go traffic even if you aren't crawling along the highway at ~10-20 mph. If you're driving less than 10 miles it is highly unlikely you are going to get the oil hot which means the gasoline and condensation that builds up from a cold start in your oil isn't going to evaporate off, if you drive like that all the time you need to adhere to extreme duty maintenance cycles which means halving the fluid change intervals on just about every major fluid like engine oil, transmission oil, differential oil, coolant, etc...

Your fuel economy is also especially bad due to the need to run the engine rich on cold starts as fuel atomization is really bad.

Even if you have plentiful parking at home and at work if you live in a major metro area like LA or the SF Bay Area traffic is a major concern as well. Most people live within 10 miles of work but that 10 mile drive goes from 20 minutes to 45-60 minutes due to traffic. On an ebike I literally don't care about traffic at all because you can utilize bike lanes and bike trails to get to work and bypass all of the car traffic. Most people are willing to pay a lot of money to be near work, rents for any kind of residence near major employers are often astronomic. In that regard the argument for a good bike is economic. You can live a little further out and save a good amount of money for the same square footage of house/apartment/condo while keeping a reliable ~30 minute ebike commute instead of a highly variable 20-60 minute car commute.

At this point I see ebike commuting as something that makes economic sense, it's much cheaper than buying an electric car and replacing my current car is going to cost a lot more money than just buying an ebike and driving my car a lot less than before. The most important thing to make this actually make economic sense at this point is to not get badly injured in the course of commuting. This is easy to achieve on bike trails where there are no cars so all that is needed to avoid injury is to avoid oncoming bikers and pedestrians and slow down when needed. This is not that hard and even if you collide with someone else on a bike realistically as long as you were geared up for it you will just be shaken and sore for a while but that's probably it. If you get run over by a car you will probably be unable to work for months if not years or even the rest of your life.

Edit: I also forgot to mention this but driving during commute hours is much more dangerous as well, people usually are tired both at the start and end of the work day because the 9-5 schedule does not work for people that are late to rise nor early risers, people that tend to sleep in will be tired driving in the morning and people that like to get up well before 8 AM will be tired in the afternoon.

Im terrified of all the people texting and talking in their 2000lb SUVs. Being on the road, you're putting your life in each of their hands....every day. I'd prefer road biking, but my wife won't allow it. So I'm limited to a mountain bike, searching out fire roads and back roads.

 

[joshuaho96]

Im terrified of all the people texting and talking in their 2000lb SUVs. Being on the road, you're putting your life in each of their hands....every day. I'd prefer road biking, but my wife won't allow it. So I'm limited to a mountain bike, searching out fire roads and back roads.

I am too, but if you have bike trails in your area it's easy to reduce risk by preferentially taking bike trails to get to where you want to go. For me at least my commute is almost entirely along a bike trail or otherwise grade separated from car traffic. I do go slower because of pedestrians and other bikes, but it's a small price to pay for reducing risk.

Edit: Also keep in mind that part of the value of a more powerful ebike is that when you do have to share the road with cars you can reduce risk by reducing the speed differential. If you have 50 feet before impact a 5 mph speed differential gives a lot more time for someone to react than a 20 mph speed differential.

 

[Daffyh]

Ive had many people have a quick chat to me about my bike while its with me not one of them has asked how much it cost.
The most common question i get is 'how far can it go the battery', not a question i can answer specifically as we all know our range is subject to many factors.
If there is a positive side to both my mental disorders its that Im slowly getting over no more motorcycling and my E-Bike has replaced it.

 

[steve mercier]

Ive had many people have a quick chat to me about my bike while its with me not one of them has asked how much it cost.
The most common question i get is 'how far can it go the battery', not a question i can answer specifically as we all know our range is subject to many factors.
If there is a positive side to both my mental disorders its that Im slowly getting over no more motorcycling and my E-Bike has replaced it.

give it time ....if you ride it, they will ask (-:

 

[linklemming]

Im terrified of all the people texting and talking in their 2000lb SUVs. Being on the road, you're putting your life in each of their hands....every day. I'd prefer road biking, but my wife won't allow it. So I'm limited to a mountain bike, searching out fire roads and back roads.

Thats a good thing to be terrified about.

For about a 5 year period I was burned on on MTBing and took to the road, had a great time but got touched by a horse trailer(which moves all over the place), almost pushing me into a guardrail on a bridge. I stopped riding on the road at that point.

Had a job where I was commuting in a car on these same rural roads north of boulder and was amazed how close many cars came to wiping out bikes (usually talking on phones).

I still do road sections but just to connect offroad sections.

 

[Alex M]

€2000 for car insurance?

In the US and Canada, - easily. In the US rates are varying between the states. Canadian rates are ridiculously high.
In my province the basic rate with all the processing fees is $US 1,300 a year. This is $US 800 (after maximum discount for many years) - to just keep car on the road, with very low 3rd party liability. I am "lucky" to have an old car - new cars are not allowed basic insurance, you have to pay a lot more.

 

[Jaxx]

In the US and Canada, - easily. In the US rates are varying between the states. Canadian rates are ridiculously high.
In my province the basic rate with all the processing fees is $US 1,300 a year. This is $US 800 (after maximum discount for many years) - to just keep car on the road, with very low 3rd party liability. I am "lucky" to have an old car - new cars are not allowed basic insurance, you have to pay a lot more.

UK rates for me. BMW (you know) also have a RAV4, with max discount £170. Has just increased from last year by £3. Both insurances are Full Comprehensive and include free breakdown and recovery if required.