What would you do with 4000W power?

[Ebiker33]

Sorry if I missed that. Right now there is no advantage of 21700 packs. Ad the molds become available, we can switch over. The superbike piggy pack can pretty much be any pack.. so as battery prices decrease and 21700 becomes more prevalant, we can switch.

Interesting, I can tell you in the power tool industry there is a huge advantage. Bosch, Makita and Milwaukee are all progressively switching over to the 21700. I have asked my customers that have used both cells in the same tool and they all say they notice it and they like it better, in bike terms they said it was like finding new higher torque gear, run time is totally irrelevant, it's about total output for net torque gain. My question to you is if that is improving the performance of chainsaws and large hammer drills, why wouldn't it help an Ebike ?

Edit: I saw your answer later about it being more of a case/mould issue

From my perspective, a 52V 21 amp/hr with 21700 cells would be the highest needed for that Bafang Ultra, anything more and the weight gets to be too much, if you really want more, do your dual system.

 

[Cyklefanatic]

Theoretically speaking .. if there was more power available....

Say...

3000W nominal (4000W peak)...
or 3500W nominal (4200W peak)....
or... say 4000W nominal (4500W peak)

What use case would we need it for ? Trade off is incredible motor wear and tear. Really limited range..

Absolutely theoretically speaking.

Well you would get a wheelie machine that would keep tire companies very happy! Have a look at this home built machine, he makes some very good observations.

 

[Feliz]

Having owned and raced motorcycles most of my life I don't feel comfortable/safe on any bike when I'm exceeding approximately 30mph
( 50 kph ) but I do feel better at speed as tire size ( width ) increases. I do ride my eBikes like a hooligan especially when I'm mountain biking. I have an addiction to doing wheelies, something I have trouble avoiding ( when it's safe ) on my WW. 4000 watts equals about five hp if I recall and I would likely kill myself or a bystander, I'll stick to the 2000 watts I currently run on my eBikes.

 

[Feliz]

Interesting, I can tell you in the power tool industry there is a huge advantage. Bosch, Makita and Milwaukee are all progressively switching over to the 21700. I have asked my customers that have used both cells in the same tool and they all say they notice it and they like it better, in bike terms they said it was like finding new higher torque gear, run time is totally irrelevant, it's about total output for net torque gain. My question to you is if that is improving the performance of chainsaws and large hammer drills, why wouldn't it help an Ebike ?

Edit: I saw your answer later about it being more of a case/mould issue

From my perspective, a 52V 21 amp/hr with 21700 cells would be the highest needed for that Bafang Ultra, anything more and the weight gets to be too much, if you really want more, do your dual system.

I run 21700 cells on my two BH mountain bikes and find the weight/ power difference noticeable. For 700 batteries they're lighter, provide better range and juice to the motor than my other batteries. Surprisingly the batteries weren't that expensive ( $400 CDN ) or maybe I just got a good deal.

 

[Explorer-1]

Keep it real, put it on a dyno, 4000W of electrical power but what's the real horsepower delivered to the ground? Let's see how the efficiencies of the motor compare with it at 1000W. Materials and design are going to be a much bigger factor at 4kW. and the controller can maybe output 4kW, but can it handle the potential back emf, does the motor torque go to crap, how much before the motor flux saturates?

If the motor really can handle 4kW it seems over designed for a bike, but a larger fat tire trike or quad would be interesting.

 

[Wald]

Hello,

my name is "Wald" and i have registered here because i've some questions about the X1 controller.

I hade ask that in an another forum already, but no one could answer it:

as you can read here -> viewtopic.php?f=28&t=105158 i had to replace my Bafang Ultra controller with the X1 controller from Exess/ Wattwagons -> https://wattwagons.com/blogs/news/archon-x1-controller
My batterie pack is a 52V 14s5p unit with Sony Konion US18650VTC6 cells and a smart bms with 60A from LLT -> https://www.lithiumbatterypcb.com/produ ... 2-2-2-2-2/.

So i tried out the app for the bms to see how much amps the new controller would suck out of the batterie while riding the bike. The X1 controller according to wattwagons description: "The nominal will be 52V with 45A pack- that’s ~2300watts nominal power. The motor can burst up to 3000W with no issues (with a 60A burst current)."
My problem is that the app newer shows me amp readings above 30A, no matter what.

I'm using the original DCP18 display that came with the Ultra and it's also showing me only a max of 30A / 1500W power draw just like with the old oem controller.

Is it correct that the X1 controller will "only" draw 30A as long as the DCP18 is plugged to it?
So i have to separately buy Wattwagons new display somewhere next year before i can actually use the proclaimed 45A / 2300W ??

 

[jono1331]

How about cargo of some sort?

kegerator on a bike!!!!
and run the fridge too.
it better be trike or you will keep falling over
4500 watts put to good use.
NOT for commuting to work

 

[pushkar]

Hello,

my name is "Wald" and i have registered here because i've some questions about the X1 controller.

I hade ask that in an another forum already, but no one could answer it:



I'm using the original DCP18 display that came with the Ultra and it's also showing me only a max of 30A / 1500W power draw just like with the old oem controller.

Is it correct that the X1 controller will "only" draw 30A as long as the DCP18 is plugged to it?
So i have to separately buy Wattwagons new display somewhere next year before i can actually use the proclaimed 45A / 2300W ??

Even though the DPC display will max out at 1500w, the actual power draw will be done using the controller And the motor will draw as much power as it is configured for with our new controller. We are using the DPC purely as a display , basic config, and assist up/down functionality at the moment.

We are working on an upgraded display that will show the right wattage plus has other functionality. Hope to have it later in the year.

 

[Ebiker33]

Even though the DPC display will max out at 1500w, the actual power draw will be done using the controller And the motor will draw as much power as it is configured for with our new controller. We are using the DPC purely as a display , basic config, and assist up/down functionality at the moment.

We are working on an upgraded display that will show the right wattage plus has other functionality. Hope to have it later in the year.

What is awesome is how much sooner rather than later you are upgrading to the next level, motors, displays, cranks, and unlike other companies you don't wait until the next model year, you do it right away.
Things are moving very quickly in the Ebike market, if a new advancement is made in January 2020, other companies have already locked their lineup, and we won't see it until 2021, if at all.

 

[pushkar]

What is awesome is how much sooner rather than later you are upgrading to the next level, motors, displays, cranks, and unlike other companies you don't wait until the next model year, you do it right away.
Things are moving very quickly in the Ebike market, if a new advancement is made in January 2020, other companies have already locked their lineup, and we won't see it until 2021, if at all.

Absolutely. We also have a customer upgrade program here - https://wattwagons.com/pages/commuter_companion .... doesnt specifically highlight mid-cycle upgrades but it is implicit / embedded in this.

 

[byunbee]

Absolutely. We also have a customer upgrade program here - https://wattwagons.com/pages/commuter_companion .... doesnt specifically highlight mid-cycle upgrades but it is implicit / embedded in this.

@pushkar, when you say new display ready later in the year, is that the display that will come with the new UC Pro?

 

[Wald]

Even though the DPC display will max out at 1500w, the actual power draw will be done using the controller And the motor will draw as much power as it is configured for with our new controller. We are using the DPC purely as a display , basic config, and assist up/down functionality at the moment.

We are working on an upgraded display that will show the right wattage plus has other functionality. Hope to have it later in the year.

Thanks for your reply

Is it possible that my controller is programmed to draw max 30A from the factory?
I bought it from Exess bikes in Germany, but they advertise it with the same specs as Wattwagons. So why should they reduce the amperage draw?

It's like you buy a car and pay the extra price for 300hp but only get one with 200hp. And then they tell you that the engine can make 300hp but you first have to pay even more and buy an additional item to unlock the promised performance!

 

[mebentz2]

What would I do with 4000W?

I think the more interesting spec is the max speed of the bike. I commute year round in Chicago with my Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra - which is a 1500W Bafang Ultra mid-drive on a fat-tire bike. To be honest, it doesn't feel that much faster than my Luna Stealth running at 350W. The reason is that the Luna Stealth is way more efficient of a bike (plus I love the belt drive). I wish I heard of Watt Wagons before buying the Stealth....I guess one can always get another bike?

Anyways, the point is that I feel safer on the Juggernaut because it goes faster and I can better match the speed of traffic. However, although I'm faster off the line than the cars, at around 20mph the cars are already at 25mph and passing me....and that's about as fast as the cars drive. I might get back up to 30 to 35mph depending on how energetic I'm feeling, and then I start passing the cars again...or I don't have to slow down for speed bumps (I think of them as ramps), etc.... The point is that the cars don't expect a bike to catch up and pass in the bike lanes, etc. I have this same problem on the Stealth which is officially street legal (I'm usually getting it up to 26 to 28mph). It would be nice if I could stay ahead of the cars the entire time this way I can be seen and not get run over when they dodge into a parking spot they find at the last minute, etc...and then I would be totally at ease riding out in the lane of traffic instead of the bike lanes (I stay under 25mph in the bike lanes these days).

If I can keep up with the city traffic, then I don't care how much power the motor has. It's more about the function of the bike than the specs that get you there. This is why I'm always looking for a bike with higher power and/or more efficiency than this Juggernaut. Those 4" fat tires take a lot of effort to turn, and the whole bike has horrible aero.


One last question....how strong are these Gates Belt Drives? Roshan over at Biktrix has mentioned testing belt drive, and says they're easy to chew up with the higher power motors. I absolutely love the Belt Drive on my Luna Stealth, and my only complaint is the lack of power and range. These Watt Wagon commuter bikes seem way better in every regard - but I'm curious how well they hold up when the bike is fully loaded and I'm biking super hard? I'd spring for the City Commuter today, but not a fan of the 210 lb weight limit. The gear I haul on the longer rides brings me way over that limit...


And can the rear IGH handle the extra power too? I'm thinking fully loaded going up hill and cranking away (motor plus human pounding on it).

 

[pushkar]

@pushkar, when you say new display ready later in the year, is that the display that will come with the new UC Pro?

By default we will ship with the DPC-18. Primary founder series members will get an updated display once it is available.

 

[pushkar]

Thanks for your reply

Is it possible that my controller is programmed to draw max 30A from the factory?
I bought it from Exess bikes in Germany, but they advertise it with the same specs as Wattwagons. So why should they reduce the amperage draw?

It's like you buy a car and pay the extra price for 300hp but only get one with 200hp. And then they tell you that the engine can make 300hp but you first have to pay even more and buy an additional item to unlock the promised performance!

Exess makes excellent bikes and they have the new controller in them. However, they only sell the 1600W version (30A max). There is no confusion there. They also only sell a battery that can do a max of 30A.

Watt Wagons sells the 3000w version - it is custom programmed for us, with a lot of other features , and comes with upgraded Battery and BMS. There is a cost to provide these updates.

Please let me know if this helps.

 

[pushkar]

What would I do with 4000W?

I think the more interesting spec is the max speed of the bike. I commute year round in Chicago with my Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra - which is a 1500W Bafang Ultra mid-drive on a fat-tire bike. To be honest, it doesn't feel that much faster than my Luna Stealth running at 350W. The reason is that the Luna Stealth is way more efficient of a bike (plus I love the belt drive). I wish I heard of Watt Wagons before buying the Stealth....I guess one can always get another bike?

Anyways, the point is that I feel safer on the Juggernaut because it goes faster and I can better match the speed of traffic. However, although I'm faster off the line than the cars, at around 20mph the cars are already at 25mph and passing me....and that's about as fast as the cars drive. I might get back up to 30 to 35mph depending on how energetic I'm feeling, and then I start passing the cars again...or I don't have to slow down for speed bumps (I think of them as ramps), etc.... The point is that the cars don't expect a bike to catch up and pass in the bike lanes, etc. I have this same problem on the Stealth which is officially street legal (I'm usually getting it up to 26 to 28mph). It would be nice if I could stay ahead of the cars the entire time this way I can be seen and not get run over when they dodge into a parking spot they find at the last minute, etc...and then I would be totally at ease riding out in the lane of traffic instead of the bike lanes (I stay under 25mph in the bike lanes these days).

If I can keep up with the city traffic, then I don't care how much power the motor has. It's more about the function of the bike than the specs that get you there. This is why I'm always looking for a bike with higher power and/or more efficiency than this Juggernaut. Those 4" fat tires take a lot of effort to turn, and the whole bike has horrible aero.


One last question....how strong are these Gates Belt Drives? Roshan over at Biktrix has mentioned testing belt drive, and says they're easy to chew up with the higher power motors. I absolutely love the Belt Drive on my Luna Stealth, and my only complaint is the lack of power and range. These Watt Wagon commuter bikes seem way better in every regard - but I'm curious how well they hold up when the bike is fully loaded and I'm biking super hard? I'd spring for the City Commuter today, but not a fan of the 210 lb weight limit. The gear I haul on the longer rides brings me way over that limit...


And can the rear IGH handle the extra power too? I'm thinking fully loaded going up hill and cranking away (motor plus human pounding on it).

Thanks for the kind words.

1. Speed is primarily a function of gearing. Higher wattage allows you to do 2 things - ramp up to your higher speed faster, and second, sustain higher speeds more easily since they provide more assist at lower pedal cadence. A typical rider will probably max out at 100 -110rpm pedal cadence in bursts, and that gets you right around 35-37mph.

2. With the Ultimate Commuter Pro you should get better efficiency, esp with coupled with the Rohloff.

3. Gates belt drives are excellent. However for technical spec reasons they cant be coupled with a Ultra full suspension. (Belt drive with FS exist on lower powered motors like Bosch ).

4. Our customers have put the UC Pro through a lot - and has help up very well. We have a customer that does around 325lbs fully loaded, going up a 15-16% grade, with eco level 3/4 assist, at around 21mph. That's on a 750W motor. Clearly not something i can come close to but an example of what our bikes see in the field.
Can you please add a little bit more details when you say "when the bike is fully loaded and I'm biking super hard" ? How much weight ? how fast are you going? what terrain ?

Thanks.

 

[Ebiker33]

Thanks for your reply

Is it possible that my controller is programmed to draw max 30A from the factory?
I bought it from Exess bikes in Germany, but they advertise it with the same specs as Wattwagons. So why should they reduce the amperage draw?

It's like you buy a car and pay the extra price for 300hp but only get one with 200hp. And then they tell you that the engine can make 300hp but you first have to pay even more and buy an additional item to unlock the promised performance!

Did you know you have pay extra and specify you want the upgraded controller from Excess, otherwise it is just the regular ultra
Here is the link, they up-charge $390 Euro's, sorry to say if you never paid it for it you never got it.
Upgraded Controller

Watt Wagons will be standard with no up-charge when they launch.

 

[mebentz2]

Thanks for the kind words.

1. Speed is primarily a function of gearing. Higher wattage allows you to do 2 things - ramp up to your higher speed faster, and second, sustain higher speeds more easily since they provide more assist at lower pedal cadence. A typical rider will probably max out at 100 -110rpm pedal cadence in bursts, and that gets you right around 35-37mph.

2. With the Ultimate Commuter Pro you should get better efficiency, esp with coupled with the Rohloff.

3. Gates belt drives are excellent. However for technical spec reasons they cant be coupled with a Ultra full suspension. (Belt drive with FS exist on lower powered motors like Bosch ).

4. Our customers have put the UC Pro through a lot - and has help up very well. We have a customer that does around 325lbs fully loaded, going up a 15-16% grade, with eco level 3/4 assist, at around 21mph. That's on a 750W motor. Clearly not something i can come close to but an example of what our bikes see in the field.
Can you please add a little bit more details when you say "when the bike is fully loaded and I'm biking super hard" ? How much weight ? how fast are you going? what terrain ?

Thanks.

1) Isn't battery voltage a factor to counteract the back emf of the motor? I'd love to see a torque versus RPM curve for the ultra. 40mph feels like a good speed target for me, and I guess the human RPM matters too... That's a good point. I feel like my Juggernaut is running out of steam at around 30mph. I can comfortably get to 35mph when the battery is full and my top speed was 40mph on level ground, but I was at the limit of my leg speed. Definitely not sustainable.

2) Isn't belt drive lower efficiency than a chain though? Are you saying the Rohloff is more efficient than the Shimano 3 speed IGH? That would surprise me since there are more gears in the Rohloff...

3) Is there a reason suspension bikes can't put the suspension pivot point concentric with the crank bearing? This would get rid of the need for a tensioner altogether.... I've never understood that limitation.

4) Fully loaded I've been around 300lbs on the bike. I'm typically in assist level 5 doing 30mph on level streets. However, I'm pounding through curbs and launching off speed bumps at that speed. Max weight would be 250lbs'ish. These distances are only around 10 miles. My long distance riding is eco 3 averaging 20mph for 60 miles. I usually need to charge for a bit at the halfway point using a 48V 21Ah battery. There are many spurts of throttle on this trip, and there's a lot of starting and stopping. Terrain is half asphalt half gravel. I lose about 2mph for the same human effort in the gravel.

On my Luna Stealth, there is a parking garage at work with a steep incline. I can get the belt to slip with the 500W peak of the motor and 250lbs from the rider standing on the pedal to get started from a stop (gotta stop and swipe a badge to get out). I find myself riding that limit of the belt slipping to get started. That's why I'm worried about 4000W going through the belt (although really it's the low speed torque that is more concerning).


5) How configurable will the tuning be on the new controller? I wouldn't mind a bit less torque down low, and coming on more slowly than both of my bikes. There should be tuning tables for time domain and inclination levels and gearing? Could also compensate for total weight too.

6) For urban city riding, the ability for regen would be very cool too. I know on long rides it matters less but it would increase my urban distance by at least 30% and dramatically reduce the wear on brakes. I replace my pads every 500 miles because I'm always accelerating and stopping hard...

 

[pushkar]

1) Isn't battery voltage a factor to counteract the back emf of the motor? I'd love to see a torque versus RPM curve for the ultra. 40mph feels like a good speed target for me, and I guess the human RPM matters too... That's a good point. I feel like my Juggernaut is running out of steam at around 30mph. I can comfortably get to 35mph when the battery is full and my top speed was 40mph on level ground, but I was at the limit of my leg speed. Definitely not sustainable.

1. https://wattwagons.com/blogs/news/archon-x1-controller - a couple of torque curves for the new controller.

2. 40mph on a bike is FAST! I would highly recommend recommend riding with better body protection gear, full face helmet etc. I have topsided on my motorcycle at 40 mph and it hurts like hell even with body armor and a full face helmet.

3. Using 52V pack versus 48V pack will allow you to get more assist for a longer time.

2) Isn't belt drive lower efficiency than a chain though? Are you saying the Rohloff is more efficient than the Shimano 3 speed IGH? That would surprise me since there are more gears in the Rohloff...

1. https://www.cyclingabout.com/belt-drivetrain-efficiency-lab-testing/ (belt versus chain)
2. http://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/ (hub efficiency comparison)

3) Is there a reason suspension bikes can't put the suspension pivot point concentric with the crank bearing? This would get rid of the need for a tensioner altogether.... I've never understood that limitation.

That is correct ....the pivot point for rear suspension is almost always offset from the bottom bracket. So you need some form of tensioner for the drive train - for both chain and belt.

4) Fully loaded I've been around 300lbs on the bike. I'm typically in assist level 5 doing 30mph on level streets. However, I'm pounding through curbs and launching off speed bumps at that speed. Max weight would be 250lbs'ish. These distances are only around 10 miles. My long distance riding is eco 3 averaging 20mph for 60 miles. I usually need to charge for a bit at the halfway point using a 48V 21Ah battery. There are many spurts of throttle on this trip, and there's a lot of starting and stopping. Terrain is half asphalt half gravel. I lose about 2mph for the same human effort in the gravel.

That is well within the design spec for the UC Pro. No problem.

On my Luna Stealth, there is a parking garage at work with a steep incline. I can get the belt to slip with the 500W peak of the motor and 250lbs from the rider standing on the pedal to get started from a stop (gotta stop and swipe a badge to get out). I find myself riding that limit of the belt slipping to get started. That's why I'm worried about 4000W going through the belt (although really it's the low speed torque that is more concerning).

Belt slipping? You need to tension it better - try around 43-44lbs. I ride with 2500/3000W all the time and have had no issues with slipping, even on inclines.

5) How configurable will the tuning be on the new controller? I wouldn't mind a bit less torque down low, and coming on more slowly than both of my bikes. There should be tuning tables for time domain and inclination levels and gearing? Could also compensate for total weight too.

It is pre-tuned for every motor. We have addressed the "torque coming on slowly" part with Archon.
We are working on adding ride profiles, and configuring assist per PAS level - will be a firmware upgrade available later in the year. May need a new display, but we are working on it.

6) For urban city riding, the ability for regen would be very cool too. I know on long rides it matters less but it would increase my urban distance by at least 30% and dramatically reduce the wear on brakes. I replace my pads every 500 miles because I'm always accelerating and stopping hard...

Regen occurs when the motor is spinning with the wheel. This way we capture the power when rolling freely downhill (or coasting).
Mid drive and regen dont mix (if at all). On a mid drive, when you coast, or are rolling downhill, the motor stops spinning...so there is no regen !

If you want regen, you probably want some form of hub motor.

 

[mebentz2]

Just to be clear - my intention isn't to actually ride at 40mph...
it has more to do with being able to have more control over matching the speed of traffic that is going 25mph to 30mph. Maybe occasionally 35mph to reposition myself in traffic. I'd like to have headroom so that acceleration from 25mph to 30mph is quicker.

I agree about riding with more protective equipment. Last year a car pulled in front of me and I t-boned it at 26mph...so scary. Thankfully I made it out with only scratches on myself and the bike...the car had $7500 in damage. Nothing like an accident to remind you of how vulnerable our bodies are with all these metal machines flying around us. I frequently get rubbed by buses and pinched off into the parked cars...going faster reduces the risk of this quite a bit. I would have a daily near death experience when on my normal pedal bike (going around 16 mph). I'd like to lobby to have different laws for ebikes in the cities since there are more degrees to safety. Everyone always thinks speed kills, but all the impatience from drivers and incidents happen when cars are trying to get around bicyclists...if speed is matched, then the need for evasive maneuvering goes way down. I agree the impact onto the ground is worse, but guys are always riding downhill on normal bicycles going 50+ mph - which is even more crazy because it's downhill and the maneuverability is even less.

I'm sure the safety discussion is a hot topic? I'm new to the forums I hope I haven't stepped on any toes, haha.


2) Thanks for sharing that data! It's interesting that the efficiency converges at higher output....that totally makes the belt worth it. Any concerns of heat into the belt at the 4kW levels? If the efficiency stays the same, then 48W into the belt and cogs is a lot of heat to dissipate...no concerns of the belt getting soft or anything like that?

6) I understand that the motor stops spinning when coasting, but the drive train doesn't have to be designed that way...All the freewheel clutches could be removed and then go to a Jeep 4x4 style differential lockout if you need to disconnect the motor? I understand the Bafang Ultra and its controller isn't designed that way.

The reason I don't like hub motors is because of rotational inertia, unsprung weight, and the lack of torque benefit from the gearing...totally not worth the tradeoff. And regen doesn't help long distance range - it would only impact urban range where charging at home more often isn't a big deal. I guess this is way off the topic of peak power though, hah.




Btw, thanks for all the insights - I'm really excited about the upcoming "Founders Series Superbike - Ultimate Commuter Pro". I really like the price of the City Commuter, but it seems the max weight, max speed, and lack of front suspension push me towards waiting for this new bike. I'd love to see pictures when you get your first prototypes. What color is the matte blue going to be?