Watt Wagon direct competitors?

[Gee_Whiz]

Answers from my perspective as an owner of a Crosstour with 300miles:

R&M has wonderful bikes. I've ridden many models. Their suspension is amazing. Shifting is sweet with the integrated Bosh/Rohloff system. But the power is lacking, and there's no throttle. Don't think you want/need a throttle? Then you've never had one, lol.
Watt Wagons builds exactly what I was looking for. Bafang 1000 Ultra and Gates, the best breaks, and best... everything. All the components are top of the line.
Pushkar's been wonderful to work with.
Delivery time? Don't know. Worth waiting for.
While it's not as uniform/sleek a style as bikes with proprietary integrated batteries (which can be a problem in servicing anywhere but the manufacturer), the Titanium is gorgeous! The bike is gorgeous.
VERY nice ride on both Crosstour and Commuter. Pro. I've ridden both. I thought I was sacrificing by not having rear suspension, but the top-end Kinekt post is perfect.
The 2000K option? Death wish! I went with the 1000W, and OMG it's definitely more than I need, and I ride fast! I rode my previous ebike in power level 5, 100% of the time. My WW has an ECO and SPORT mode. I ride in 1 or 2 (rarely 3) of Eco. I mean I was going 35 MPH on it recently! Scared the bejesus outa me, LOL. I tried it on 5 Sport once and immediately blurted out "Oh s**t! Oh s**t! Oh s**t!"

It's all about your priorities and what you can afford. I wanted the most powerful motor (with strong torque) available, with a Rohloff hub, a Gates drive and a throttle (and the brakes to stop it). The only folks I find in that market are HPC, FLX, and Luna. There's Optibike too, but they have no pedal assist, it's throttle ONLY). I won't go into my comparison of those, but to say I chose a WW.

Best of luck in your journey.

DAMN sexy bike and great post!!

 

[Ebiker33]

Answers from my perspective as an owner of a Crosstour with 300miles:

R&M has wonderful bikes. I've ridden many models. Their suspension is amazing. Shifting is sweet with the integrated Bosh/Rohloff system. But the power is lacking, and there's no throttle. Don't think you want/need a throttle? Then you've never had one, lol.
Watt Wagons builds exactly what I was looking for. Bafang 1000 Ultra and Gates, the best breaks, and best... everything. All the components are top of the line.
Pushkar's been wonderful to work with.
Delivery time? Don't know. Worth waiting for.
While it's not as uniform/sleek a style as bikes with proprietary integrated batteries (which can be a problem in servicing anywhere but the manufacturer), the Titanium is gorgeous! The bike is gorgeous.
VERY nice ride on both Crosstour and Commuter. Pro. I've ridden both. I thought I was sacrificing by not having rear suspension, but the top-end Kinekt post is perfect.
The 2000K option? Death wish! I went with the 1000W, and OMG it's definitely more than I need, and I ride fast! I rode my previous ebike in power level 5, 100% of the time. My WW has an ECO and SPORT mode. I ride in 1 or 2 (rarely 3) of Eco. I mean I was going 35 MPH on it recently! Scared the bejesus outa me, LOL. I tried it on 5 Sport once and immediately blurted out "Oh s**t! Oh s**t! Oh s**t!"

It's all about your priorities and what you can afford. I wanted the most powerful motor (with strong torque) available, with a Rohloff hub, a Gates drive and a throttle (and the brakes to stop it). The only folks I find in that market are HPC, FLX, and Luna. There's Optibike too, but they have no pedal assist, it's throttle ONLY). I won't go into my comparison of those, but to say I chose a WW.

Best of luck in your journey.

How comfortable is that Ebike compared to a R & M with a full suspension, your WW with a suspension seat post and fat tires?

 

[pennybags]

How comfortable is that Ebike compared to a R & M with a full suspension, your WW with a suspension seat post and fat tires?

I dont know if comparing hardtail to a FS is ideal. However I'd be curious to know as well. The specs on the WW are top notch so it might be a lot closer.

 

[Ebiker33]

I dont know if comparing hardtail to a FS is ideal. However I'd be curious to know as well. The specs on the WW are top notch so it might be a lot closer.

Yes but going from around 2.5" tires with full suspension, to a hardtail with 4" tires with suspension seat post, I heard was almost the same for comfort, but every Ebike is different.
This is why you see some EBR members switch their suspension front forks to solid ones with their fatties and they say they are still comfortable. Fat tires seem to have a very strong mitigating factor against impacts, especially at the correct PSI.

 

[jharrell]

Yes but going from around 2.5" tires with full suspension, to a hardtail with 4" tires with suspension seat post, I heard was almost the same for comfort, but every Ebike is different.
This is why you see some EBR members switch their suspension front forks to solid ones with their fatties and they say they are still comfortable. Fat tires seem to have a very strong mitigating factor against impacts, especially at the correct PSI.

I have both full suspension mountain bikes and more recently a Juiced Ripcurrent S with Kinekt Seatpost. The hardtail with 4" fat tires and good suspension seat post falls pretty short of the comfort of a full suspension. The Kinekt is by far the best suspension seat post I have tried and makes a HUGE difference over a rigid seat post but it can't make up for all the unsprung weight and a good dampening rear suspension with much more travel. The whole bike will reverberate over bumps through the pedals, the rear tire can lose traction if your not careful due to it bouncing which is what R&M talk about with "control technology". The 4" air tires absorb more than smaller tires but its not dramatic to me if you have them with decent psi for road efficiency and its not dampened so they tend to feel very bouncy.

So I am lurking here anxiously waiting to see what kind of FS mid-drive Watt Wagons comes up with and looking closely at R&M and other FS e-bikes as my next one will for sure be FS mid drive for comfort and control and performance.

 

[Ebiker33]

I have both full suspension mountain bikes and more recently a Juiced Ripcurrent S with Kinekt Seatpost. The hardtail with 4" fat tires and good suspension seat post falls pretty short of the comfort of a full suspension. The Kinekt is by far the best suspension seat post I have tried and makes a HUGE difference over a rigid seat post but it can't make up for all the unsprung weight and a good dampening rear suspension with much more travel. The whole bike will reverberate over bumps through the pedals, the rear tire can lose traction if your not careful due to it bouncing which is what R&M talk about with "control technology". The 4" air tires absorb more than smaller tires but its not dramatic to me if you have them with decent psi for road efficiency and its not dampened so they tend to feel very bouncy.

So I am lurking here anxiously waiting to see what kind of FS mid-drive Watt Wagons comes up with and looking closely at R&M and other FS e-bikes as my next one will for sure be FS mid drive for comfort and control and performance.

Thanks for your input on the question, good to know.
But WW has a FS Ebike here, you don't have to wait you can buy it now.

Of coarse we have that new thread with brand new Ebike coming too.

 

[Taylor57]

Yeah. I almost always peruse this site on my Mac. Check out some of the photo and route posts. Some great photography. I browse by 'recent activity' mostly and see just about all that goes on here. This is probably due to my severe jonseing while waiting for my ebike delivery.

What bike are you waiting on Reed?

 

[reed scott]

What bike are you waiting on Reed?

My rebadged Frey AM 1000 from Bolton which Kyle says is on the water headed this way. And the grey Wattwagon with 2.8" tires Pushkar showed tonight. That's my bike you know. riiiiiighhhttt

Actually I'm going to get my Wattwagon in killer dark olive green.

 

[Jayaznpride]

Jeep E-Bike

The Jeep E-Bike is designed to conquer technical off-road terrain including soft sand, snow, and hardpacked, rocky trails. Learn more.

quietkat.com

The Quietkat Jeep Bike was one of the bikes I wanted.This bike is made from Frey for Quietkat. MSRP $5,899.00. Speaking on just the main parts of interest to me unrestricted throttle to 1000w, metal frame, 26x4.8 tires and a dropper it comes out to $6,327.00. Compared to the QuietKat Jeep Bike you can spec the Hydra with similiar specifications, 1000w, get a carbon frame, larger battery, more gears, and save more money than Quietkat. I am assuming a lot of cost was using the Jeep name.

 

[pennybags]

Jeep E-Bike

The Jeep E-Bike is designed to conquer technical off-road terrain including soft sand, snow, and hardpacked, rocky trails. Learn more.

quietkat.com

The Quietkat Jeep Bike was one of the bikes I wanted.This bike is made from Frey for Quietkat. MSRP $5,899.00. Speaking on just the main parts of interest to me unrestricted throttle to 1000w, metal frame, 26x4.8 tires and a dropper it comes out to $6,327.00. Compared to the QuietKat Jeep Bike you can spec the Hydra with similiar specifications, 1000w, get a carbon frame, larger battery, more gears, and save more money than Quietkat. I am assuming a lot of cost was using the Jeep name.

Couldn't agree with you more. The Hydra has another advantage of getting the new controller- which is miles better as well. Overall a fantastic price point for those who want a more modern alternative. I also believe the weight is significantly better too.

Based on what I see so far for an Ultra FS bike, Hydra pretty much leads the pack. I have compared it to the Luna models, biktrix, Bikonit, boltonebikes, etc etc.. just absolutely no comparison.

I have already purchased a helios - that's the bike for my needs. If I had the financial bandwidth, I would absolutely jump on the hydra.

 

[sisyphus]

How comfortable is that Ebike compared to a R & M with a full suspension, your WW with a suspension seat post and fat tires?

 

[reed scott]

sisyphus, Good question but MTB bike riders don't put comfort at the top of their list of requirements usually. I know I don't. I don't want an uncomfortable bike but I'm not ready to sit straight up like I'm riding a chair either. Give me five or ten years or some health problems and I probably will be however.

 

[sisyphus]

Oddly, that's not an easy question to answer. because they're so different. Here's how I'd put it. The WW with 4" tires (regardless of what brand) and the seat post suspension is a VERY CUSHY ride. It's a softer ride than my full suspension FLX. I ride over everything like it was nothing.
That said, the R & M is.... like wow. Like you get the feel of fat tires w/o fat tires. But it's more than that; it's a feeling like no other bike. BUT, the R&M motor is lackluster, and there's no throttle.

Courtney, the awesome guy that runs RBR said his fav bike doesn't exist. It would be an R&M with a throttle and a 1000W+ motor. So, if you want a beautiful bike for thousands more, that gives you a gentile amazing ride on moderate size tires, but you still have to peddle all the time and still takes work up steep hills, go for an R&M. But if you want a bike that takes you up a hill, peddle or don't, and is REALLY cushy like an A+ to R&M's A++, go for a WW.
It will be a few years before someone blends the two. In the meantime, it comes down to this: do you want R&M's really refined slightly underpowered ride. Or do you want the same Rohloff/Gates tech on a fantastic bike that gives you more power than you will ever need. (Nice controller too - which is about = to R&M, and tons better than all other bikes I've ridden, and REALLY important.).
No judgement. I just love the "HOLY S**T factor I get from my WW that you won't quite get from an R&M.

 

[Ebiker33]

Oddly, that's not an easy question to answer. because they're so different. Here's how I'd put it. The WW with 4" tires (regardless of what brand) and the seat post suspension is a VERY CUSHY ride. It's a softer ride than my full suspension FLX. I ride over everything like it was nothing.
That said, the R & M is.... like wow. Like you get the feel of fat tires w/o fat tires. But it's more than that; it's a feeling like no other bike. BUT, the R&M motor is lackluster, and there's no throttle.

Courtney, the awesome guy that runs RBR said his fav bike doesn't exist. It would be an R&M with a throttle and a 1000W+ motor. So, if you want a beautiful bike for thousands more, that gives you a gentile amazing ride on moderate size tires, but you still have to peddle all the time and still takes work up steep hills, go for an R&M. But if you want a bike that takes you up a hill, peddle or don't, and is REALLY cushy like an A+ to R&M's A++, go for a WW.
It will be a few years before someone blends the two. In the meantime, it comes down to this: do you want R&M's really refined slightly underpowered ride. Or do you want the same Rohloff/Gates tech on a fantastic bike that gives you more power than you will ever need. (Nice controller too - which is about = to R&M, and tons better than all other bikes I've ridden, and REALLY important.).
No judgement. I just love the "HOLY S**T factor I get from my WW that you won't quite get from an R&M.

I appreciate the very detailed answer, based on your comments I think I want my next Ebike to have what doesn't exist yet, but WW is coming so close.
Fat Tire 4" plus (Actually Johnny 5 tires)
Carbon fiber frame
Suspension seat post
Step through
Gates belt
IGH
WW Ultra Bafang Motor

The WW will give me all that but the 4" plus tires, I know the front could be changed with just new forks, but the rear would be an issue.

 

[Taylor57]

Jeep E-Bike

The Jeep E-Bike is designed to conquer technical off-road terrain including soft sand, snow, and hardpacked, rocky trails. Learn more.

quietkat.com

View attachment 74534
The Quietkat Jeep Bike was one of the bikes I wanted.This bike is made from Frey for Quietkat. MSRP $5,899.00. Speaking on just the main parts of interest to me unrestricted throttle to 1000w, metal frame, 26x4.8 tires and a dropper it comes out to $6,327.00. Compared to the QuietKat Jeep Bike you can spec the Hydra with similiar specifications, 1000w, get a carbon frame, larger battery, more gears, and save more money than Quietkat. I am assuming a lot of cost was using the Jeep name.

Too much money. You are paying for the Jeep sticker on the downtube. Just buy a Frey and make your own Jeep sticker. Saves you 2500 buckaroos

 

[reed scott]

Too much money. You are paying for the Jeep sticker on the downtube. Just buy a Frey and make your own Jeep sticker. Saves you 2500 buckaroos

That was my plan. Although a Bacou bike was involved rather than Quietkat. Bacou has a better bike than QK but it's too heavy and geared too low. My Frey AM 1000 rebadge from Bolton is ready for pickup at the 'local' terminal this Monday.

And of course I should have my Hydra in a couple months.

 

[biruja]

The gearing of the Hydra will be interesting. Does anyone know the front sprocket size and top speed? It's a trail bike but hitting 25 - 30 MPH on paved trails would be nice.

 

[BarryS]

Sizing is disappointing 19 inches and 17 ? Is the average person getting smaller ?

 

[pushkar]

Sizing is disappointing 19 inches and 17 ? Is the average person getting smaller ?

Umm.. it is a trail geometry so the reach is significantly longer. With trail geometry, bikes will range from 5'1 to 6'4".

I looked at the height/ gender chart from the 2010 census here- https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/statab/130ed/tables/11s0205.pdf
We are covering over 96% of the adult population with our bike sizes.

We are unable to make the XL (21 or 22) size in carbon .. the demand is just not there to justify a significant investment in mold costs. We can make you one in titanium though.

 

[reed scott]

Sizing is disappointing 19 inches and 17 ? Is the average person getting smaller ?

My 19" rebadged Frey AM 1000 ( 27.5 x 2.8 in tires ) is substantially larger than my XL (21.5 in seat tube) Specialized MTB having 26 x 2 in tires ) I like big bike frames but unless you are uncommonly tall ( over 6' 3' or so ) or you have freakishly long legs a 19" MTB with plus size wheels is a big bike.