Vado SL 5.0 -- reasonable range on hills? (Mt. Diablo, CA)

[ActionJackson]

I guess that does not sound that steep according to some of the numbers people have posted. But since that bike's motor/system seems more powerful than my Creo, I have not even attempted it.

Probably a wise move if you want to extend your Creo’s motor longevity. Heat is directly related to the loss of winding efficiency even if the motor is only temporarily overheated. Something like 50% reduction in mean time before failure for every 10°C over rated operating temperature. I don’t think the SLs are really intended for constant hill climbs.

 

[kahn]

Probably a wise move if you want to extend your Creo’s motor longevity. Heat is directly related to the loss of winding efficiency even if the motor is only temporarily overheated. Something like 50% reduction in mean time before failure for every 10°C over rated operating temperature. I don’t think the SLs are really intended for constant hill climbs.

Hmmm. I guess I will ask and you can give a guess. I've noticed a substantial range loss on the battery of that bike. The motor seems to still have more power than my Specialized. It always did have more power which I could tell when I was test riding the Creo. And just this week, the Creo was in for the remote button installation so I rode that other bike two days in a row. It still climbs easier than the Specialized. BUT as I note, its battery which use to approach about 50 miles on a charge now seems limited to about 30 miles. The bike is now approaching three years which means its battery might be aging (aren't we all - today's my birthday!!!).

Speculation - did I "injure" it by pushing it up that hill too many times. I did bring it in while under warranty and they said the battery looked normal but I'm not sure that they did anything but charge it and maybe put it on a meter. And maybe they did not want to replace a $600 battery under warranty so merely did minimal testing.

There's been no real discussion if these bikes have some "fuse" or safety thermal cut-off. And the literature does not really mention that - who would want to admit that their power is limited.

 

[kahn]

Yesterday's 26 mile loop. About 1,100 feet of gain. Used 63% of the battery.

 

[ActionJackson]

Hmmm. I guess I will ask and you can give a guess. I've noticed a substantial range loss on the battery of that bike. The motor seems to still have more power than my Specialized. It always did have more power which I could tell when I was test riding the Creo. And just this week, the Creo was in for the remote button installation so I rode that other bike two days in a row. It still climbs easier than the Specialized. BUT as I note, its battery which use to approach about 50 miles on a charge now seems limited to about 30 miles. The bike is now approaching three years which means its battery might be aging (aren't we all - today's my birthday!!!).

Speculation - did I "injure" it by pushing it up that hill too many times. I did bring it in while under warranty and they said the battery looked normal but I'm not sure that they did anything but charge it and maybe put it on a meter. And maybe they did not want to replace a $600 battery under warranty so merely did minimal testing.

There's been no real discussion if these bikes have some "fuse" or safety thermal cut-off. And the literature does not really mention that - who would want to admit that their power is limited.

My thoughts- In general if you damage or stress the windings of a motor the output of the motor decreases and the current draw increases for a given torque load. Perhaps it could be the battery is fine and the motor just puts more draw on it resulting in less useful range. I think people have the misperception that electric motors don’t degrade or fail over time however the insulation on stator windings on a BLDC motor gradually breakdown under stressful conditions. In theory the shop could test the motor by measuring the windings however I can’t see a bike mechanic doing so - they probably just think “wow it works great” but they’re not aware of the higher current draw. It could also be mechanical - perhaps increased friction from deranged bearings on the motor shaft. Again the shop could test that *if* they were given the right training, tools and procedures.

 

[kahn]

My thoughts- In general if you damage or stress the windings of a motor the output of the motor decreases and the current draw increases for a given torque load. Perhaps it could be the battery is fine and the motor just puts more draw on it resulting in less useful range. I think people have the misperception that electric motors don’t degrade or fail over time however the insulation on stator windings on a BLDC motor gradually breakdown under stressful conditions. In theory the shop could test the motor by measuring the windings however I can’t see a bike mechanic doing so - they probably just think “wow it works great” but they’re not aware of the higher current draw. It could also be mechanical - perhaps increased friction from deranged bearings on the motor shaft. Again the shop could test that *if* they were given the right training, tools and procedures.

Thanks, much for the reply and thoughts. But if there's a chance of "wearing" the windings, I will NOT subject the Creo to that abuse. Of course, unknowingly I might have already done that!

But I guess it is not the kind of thing Specialized would want to publicize. To wit: "If you overtax our bikes, repeatedly going up steep hills at full power, you might shorten their life and reduce their output!!!!"

Rather: "Go for it - it is YOU, only twice!"

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Why to invent theories if the laws of physics explain it all?
My version of Occam's Razor (Mikulski's Razor):
"If fundamental laws of physics easily explain the facts, don't think your e-bike has broken"


In the first phase of my "big" Vado ownership, I was deeply disappointed with the e-bike range. As the electronics of my Vado were at the level of Bosch Purion at that time, I could not tune the motor. I rode excessively fast, too. That made me buy a spare battery soon. Over the time, Specialized upgraded the Vado electronics to the 2020 version, and I could adjust assistance levels. I gained experience, and the range of my Vado has greatly increased.

Then I bought a Giant e-MTB with a 500 Wh battery. I went to Polish Holy Cross Mountains for one of my early rides. When my ride started right uphill, I could not believe my eyes: the battery meter was showing I was losing a percent of charge every minute! What a bummer! I greatly shortened my trip as I totally panicked (a severe case of range anxiety!) At that time, I was not aware that a mountain ride loop involved as much of elevation gain as much of elevation loss (you don't need to use any power on descents). Soon, I bought a spare battery. With experience gained, I learned riding mountain roads to get very long travels with significant elevation gain.

But the best happened when I let my brother (a healthy, skinny and strong 57-yo man) ride my Giant. Jacek hates carrying the spare battery. On one of our long trips, he forgot taking the battery lock key (having the spare battery in a pannier). Midway of our trip, he found out he wouldn't be able to swap batteries! He noticed, however, that he -- by riding the Giant unassisted or in Eco -- had plenty of juice left. When we returned from our 75 mile ride, he still had 26% of the single battery left!

Specialized employees whose ride data have been used for Turbo Range Calculator are young, fit, and skinny people. For that reason, the Range Calculator data are overly optimistic. For one, my brother could be a Specialized range tester for the Marketing Dept...

 

[John in CA]

Specialized employees whose ride data have been used for Turbo Range Calculator are young, fit, and skinny people. For that reason, the Range Calculator data are overly optimistic.

Stefan,

I think you are absolutely correct. The Range Calculator probably needs another one or two data fields for age and general physical condition. I started this thread because of my initial disappointment with my battery results on my first challenging ride up Mt. Diablo. After reading all of the following posts, I actually feel very good about the bike and the battery--they are both just fine, but I need improvement!! I think the Range Extender will be a great help for me.

Yesterday I did a ride in the Berkeley, CA hills that included an "infamous" climb. It's a road in Tilden Park called South Park Drive. Here's a description:

"South Park Dr gains 730′ in 1.4 miles up to Grizzly Peak Blvd; it’s a steep stair step climb! The first section begins with grades of 6-8%, at Big Springs the road tilts up a bit more with grades of 10-14%. It eases up for a short stretch around Laurel and jumps back up again to 11-13% grades around Owl. The road continues with steeper grades of 13-15% all the way up to the gate at Grizzly Peak. The climb up this quiet road with minimal traffic is a slug fest!"

My whole ride was 9 miles, 54 minutes, 1,269' elevation gained, 167.00wh consumption, 221.84% support level. Of course I was at 100% for most of South Park Drive, and in the lowest gear. What I learned from this ride is that I can do almost any climb on this bike, and that's good news to me. My previous bike with the huge battery and the Bafang BBS02 motor made a climb like this look easy. While I was working my tail off doing this on the Vado, I was pleased that I could do it at all, given how much less power it has compared to the Bafang. Bottom line: I love my new Vado SL 5.0!

By the way, I tried Stefan's Mission Control Profile--35/70, 70/85, 100/100--and it worked very well. With that Sport setting I rarely needed Turbo (except S Park Drive, of course).

I really appreciate all of the feedback you guys offered me here. Thank you.

John

 

[mschwett]

Stefan,

I think you are absolutely correct. The Range Calculator probably needs another one or two data fields for age and general physical condition. I started this thread because of my initial disappointment with my battery results on my first challenging ride up Mt. Diablo. After reading all of the following posts, I actually feel very good about the bike and the battery--they are both just fine, but I need improvement!! I think the Range Extender will be a great help for me.

Yesterday I did a ride in the Berkeley, CA hills that included an "infamous" climb. It's a road in Tilden Park called South Park Drive. Here's a description:

"South Park Dr gains 730′ in 1.4 miles up to Grizzly Peak Blvd; it’s a steep stair step climb! The first section begins with grades of 6-8%, at Big Springs the road tilts up a bit more with grades of 10-14%. It eases up for a short stretch around Laurel and jumps back up again to 11-13% grades around Owl. The road continues with steeper grades of 13-15% all the way up to the gate at Grizzly Peak. The climb up this quiet road with minimal traffic is a slug fest!"

My whole ride was 9 miles, 54 minutes, 1,269' elevation gained, 167.00wh consumption, 221.84% support level. Of course I was at 100% for most of South Park Drive, and in the lowest gear. What I learned from this ride is that I can do almost any climb on this bike, and that's good news to me. My previous bike with the huge battery and the Bafang BBS02 motor made a climb like this look easy. While I was working my tail off doing this on the Vado, I was pleased that I could do it at all, given how much less power it has compared to the Bafang. Bottom line: I love my new Vado SL 5.0!

By the way, I tried Stefan's Mission Control Profile--35/70, 70/85, 100/100--and it worked very well. With that Sport setting I rarely needed Turbo (except S Park Drive, of course).

I really appreciate all of the feedback you guys offered me here. Thank you.

John

nice !! south park is a great climb. there are lots of nice combos in there that you can connect it to also, loops of varying length. it’s been a while since i did it - it gets a little hot for me and my damaged heart up there in the summer. i did this nice 31 mile loop including south park and grizzly in april on my Creo SL. 126wh used, average assistance 31%, could probably get that down to 15-20% these days. but south park is always going to be a “motor on” climb! the SL bikes are great for perfectly balancing motor and human contribution.

 

[Scott Eakin]

Hi,

I just bought a Vado SL 5.0 and am happy to have discovered this forum.

I have a favorite ride I do with a friend--Mt. Diablo in Walnut Creek, CA. It is 12 miles, all uphill, with an elevation gain of approximately 3,500'. (Before my Vado SL 5.0 I used a different ebike with a large, heavy battery and Bafang BBSO2 motor.) Part of my decision to buy the Vado SL 5.0 was based on the Turbo Range Calculator on the Specialized website. According to the Calculator, 12 miles and 3,600' would be no problem. Well, I barely made it to the summit before the battery went below 10%. Here is some info:

Begin ride with fully charged battery.

My Eco, Sport and Turbo settings were at the default values--35/35, 60/60, 100/100%. For most of the ride, I used Sport. I tried to use Eco as much as possible and Turbo as little as possible to preserve battery power.

Starting place to Ranger Station: Mile 7.8. 2,015' elevation gain. 46% battery remaining.

Ranger Station to Juniper: Mile 10.2. 27% battery remaining.

Juniper to Summit: Mile 12.4. 3,493 total elevation gain. 8% battery remaining. (The battery level dropped below 10% about 1/2 mile before the Summit, and the red indicator light came on.)

Summit to starting place (downhill): Used very little pedal assist. 7% battery remaining.

Ride info from the Internet:
Segment One: North Gate Road to Summit Road (7.9 miles / 2,015’ / 5.4%)
Segment Two: Summit Road (4.5 miles / 1,654’ / 6.7%)
The first 2.7 miles of this climb are a great warm up at 2.2% average grade. 33.5% (4.1 miles) is at 0-5%, 55% (6.7 miles) 5-10% and 7.4% (.9 miles) is at 10-15%. The steepest quarter mile is 10.5% and steepest mile 8.4%.

While I am very happy with the Vado SL 5.0, my initial reaction to the battery capacity is disappointment. I fully expected the Turbo Range Calculator to be on the "optimistic" side, but I did not expect my mileage to be so substantially different (and less) from what the Calculator indicates. The Calculator says the bike should go 25 miles and climb 5,340' using the parameters: 5'10", 210 lbs., 5mph, Few Stops, Turbo, Mountain terrain.

Do any of you experienced riders have any comments or suggestions. Do my Mt. Diablo ride numbers seem reasonable, or should I have gotten to the top without going below 10% battery level? (I am considering the Range Extender battery, but I hate to spend an additional $450 just to get the performance I was expecting in the bike in the first place.)

Thanks for your thoughts.

John

I am not as technical as some but have had good results with a 5.0 SL gradually lowering the assist levels using the Mission Control App. Stephan is an expert here but the net result for me, as I have slowly become a bit stronger is no range anxiety thanks to less demand on the battery. Most recent ride was 40 miles, 2277 ft of climbing and 133 watt/Hrs used or about 1/3 of the battery capacity. It was a hard ride and I was tired and sore next day but with the lower settings in Mission Control I had plenty of headroom and could have asked for more from the bike if I couldn't continue to contribute as much. I love this bike because it allows me to set the parameters and as a result I am getting a little stronger. Im a bit lighter but not the strongest rider and well into the Medicare years. I think as you continue and with some experimentation using Mission Control you can make your ride and save the $450.

 

[John in CA]

I am not as technical as some but have had good results with a 5.0 SL gradually lowering the assist levels using the Mission Control App. Stephan is an expert here but the net result for me, as I have slowly become a bit stronger is no range anxiety thanks to less demand on the battery. Most recent ride was 40 miles, 2277 ft of climbing and 133 watt/Hrs used or about 1/3 of the battery capacity. It was a hard ride and I was tired and sore next day but with the lower settings in Mission Control I had plenty of headroom and could have asked for more from the bike if I couldn't continue to contribute as much. I love this bike because it allows me to set the parameters and as a result I am getting a little stronger. Im a bit lighter but not the strongest rider and well into the Medicare years. I think as you continue and with some experimentation using Mission Control you can make your ride and save the $450.

Scott,

I think you are right that as I get more familiar with Mission Control (and hopefully get stronger too), the battery will go farther and I won't need the Range Extender. I'm already finding that if I'm willing to ride a little slower I can do just find in ECO mode and a low gear.

I'm curious about one of the images you attached. I recognize the RideWithGPS image, but I'm wondering if the other one that says "Analyze Ride" is from Mission Control. I ask because "My Rides" in my Mission Control looks different and doesn't show % spent in each mode, which I would find very useful.

John

 

[Scott Eakin]

Scott,

I think you are right that as I get more familiar with Mission Control (and hopefully get stronger too), the battery will go farther and I won't need the Range Extender. I'm already finding that if I'm willing to ride a little slower I can do just find in ECO mode and a low gear.

I'm curious about one of the images you attached. I recognize the RideWithGPS image, but I'm wondering if the other one that says "Analyze Ride" is from Mission Control. I ask because "My Rides" in my Mission Control looks different and doesn't show % spent in each mode, which I would find very useful.

John

Hi John it’s a Specialized app called RIDE. I can’t remember how I found it but it’s available on the App Store and it does provide some additional information that Mission Control doesn’t. I take it all with a grain of salt but I have enjoyed the extra info about power and battery usage.

 

[Rider777]

marin ave is hilarious. i’m sure you know it was planned to be a funicular , thus it’s the only hill in berkeley which just goes …. straight up!!

A little help:

Funicular​

A funicular is a form of cable railway which connects points along a railway laid on a steep slope. Two counterbalanced cars are permanently attached to opposite ends of the haulage cable, which is looped over a pulley at the upper end of a track. The two cars move in concert: as one ascends, the other descends

 

[mschwett]

Hi John it’s a Specialized app called RIDE. I can’t remember how I found it but it’s available on the App Store and it does provide some additional information that Mission Control doesn’t. I take it all with a grain of salt but I have enjoyed the extra info about power and battery usage.

OMG! how did i not know about this app!?!? it's actually got really great metrics - motor power stats, time in various modes, rider power zones, weighted averages! the time spent in various modes is really cool, as is the motor power graph. i've always wanted that data.

 

[John in CA]

A little help:

Funicular​

A funicular is a form of cable railway which connects points along a railway laid on a steep slope. Two counterbalanced cars are permanently attached to opposite ends of the haulage cable, which is looped over a pulley at the upper end of a track. The two cars move in concert: as one ascends, the other descends

mschwett is correct--Marin Ave was originally planned to have a funicular on it. I don't know enough Berkeley history to know it it ever happened. I do know that there were several trolley lines in the flatter parts of Berkeley, below the very steep hills.

 

[John in CA]

Hi John it’s a Specialized app called RIDE. I can’t remember how I found it but it’s available on the App Store and it does provide some additional information that Mission Control doesn’t. I take it all with a grain of salt but I have enjoyed the extra info about power and battery usage.

Thanks, Scott. I'll download RIDE. Do you know if you can run it, Mission Control and RideWithGPS all at the same time?

 

[mschwett]

Thanks, Scott. I'll download RIDE. Do you know if you can run it, Mission Control and RideWithGPS all at the same time?

bluetooth devices typically can’t connect to more than one other device, so i doubt you can connect to the bike in both mission and ride. however, rideWithGPS doesn’t connect to the bike with bluetooth, it only uses GPS, so you can run it (and strava and whatever else you want) that doesn’t read the bike sensors directly.

 

[AleksR]

Hi,

I just bought a Vado SL 5.0 and am happy to have discovered this forum.

I have a favorite ride I do with a friend--Mt. Diablo in Walnut Creek, CA. It is 12 miles, all uphill, with an elevation gain of approximately 3,500'. (Before my Vado SL 5.0 I used a different ebike with a large, heavy battery and Bafang BBSO2 motor.) Part of my decision to buy the Vado SL 5.0 was based on the Turbo Range Calculator on the Specialized website. According to the Calculator, 12 miles and 3,600' would be no problem. Well, I barely made it to the summit before the battery went below 10%. Here is some info:

Begin ride with fully charged battery.

My Eco, Sport and Turbo settings were at the default values--35/35, 60/60, 100/100%. For most of the ride, I used Sport. I tried to use Eco as much as possible and Turbo as little as possible to preserve battery power.

Starting place to Ranger Station: Mile 7.8. 2,015' elevation gain. 46% battery remaining.

Ranger Station to Juniper: Mile 10.2. 27% battery remaining.

Juniper to Summit: Mile 12.4. 3,493 total elevation gain. 8% battery remaining. (The battery level dropped below 10% about 1/2 mile before the Summit, and the red indicator light came on.)

Summit to starting place (downhill): Used very little pedal assist. 7% battery remaining.

Ride info from the Internet:
Segment One: North Gate Road to Summit Road (7.9 miles / 2,015’ / 5.4%)
Segment Two: Summit Road (4.5 miles / 1,654’ / 6.7%)
The first 2.7 miles of this climb are a great warm up at 2.2% average grade. 33.5% (4.1 miles) is at 0-5%, 55% (6.7 miles) 5-10% and 7.4% (.9 miles) is at 10-15%. The steepest quarter mile is 10.5% and steepest mile 8.4%.

While I am very happy with the Vado SL 5.0, my initial reaction to the battery capacity is disappointment. I fully expected the Turbo Range Calculator to be on the "optimistic" side, but I did not expect my mileage to be so substantially different (and less) from what the Calculator indicates. The Calculator says the bike should go 25 miles and climb 5,340' using the parameters: 5'10", 210 lbs., 5mph, Few Stops, Turbo, Mountain terrain.

Do any of you experienced riders have any comments or suggestions. Do my Mt. Diablo ride numbers seem reasonable, or should I have gotten to the top without going below 10% battery level? (I am considering the Range Extender battery, but I hate to spend an additional $450 just to get the performance I was expecting in the bike in the first place.)

Thanks for your thoughts.

John

I ride thru Mt Tam with 6000 elevation and cover 65 miles. It is supercharger2 with 2X500Wh batteries.

 

[mschwett]

I ride thru Mt Tam with 6000 elevation and cover 65 miles. It is supercharger2 with 2X500Wh batteries.

nice bike! ... but a totally different beast than the Vado SL, at twice the weight and 3x the battery capacity

mt tam is a great ride though, i like the loop from the bridge to fairfax, fairfax-bolinas road, ridgecrest, then up to the summit. and panoramic back down towards sausalito. 63 miles and a little over 5,000 feet of climbing from SF. stunning ride.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

To illustrate the energy consumption for SL vs full power e-bikes, let me give you an example from two different rides in the (basically) flatland:

• Vado SL, a 116 km (72 mi) ride, elevation gain of 244 m (800 ft), avg speed of 20.4 km/h (12.7 mph), 436 Wh of batteries consumed or 3.75 Wh/km (6 Wh/mi)
• Vado 5/6, a 110.5 km (68.7 mi) ride, elevation gain of 400 m (1300 ft), avg speed of 20.9 km/h (13 mph), 894 Wh of batteries consumed or 8.09 Wh/km (13 Wh/mi)

Note: Vado SL is "2x you" and Vado is "4x you". The energy use by Vado was twice for Vado SL (on very similar trips!). Biker's own contribution was 25% on the full power e-bike, and 50% for the lightweight one. Thoughts?

 

[Scott Eakin]

Thanks, Scott. I'll download RIDE. Do you know if you can run it, Mission Control and RideWithGPS all at the same time?

That is exactly what I do. Yes