Tubelessness: A Resource Thread

[Reid]

Michelin Protek Urban is not a tubeless-ready tire.

Am gaining on it, though.
Nothing works right the first time, all by itself, just to please you; you've got to make the damn thing work.

A little bit later: it works! The front is now tubeless!

I'll update tomorrow with the kinks and cures found by doing.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Reid which tubeless conversion kit did you use? Did you have any issues putting on the rime tape, etc? How wide in mm was the tape you used? Obviously I'm interested, as I am considering this as well.

 

[JRA]

That is about twice the amount of sealant I would use for a tire that size. More is not always better as it can coagulate and ball up if there is too much in there.

The only tubeless conversion I know of that doesn't entail tubeless rated rims and tires is the ghetto method of using a size smaller split tube. Total PITA to put together though.

I hope it works out for you.

 

[Reid]

It is midnight and I just got home. The tire remains fully inflated. I put 80 PSI in it this afternoon and pedaled a few miles with no issues. This is going to be great if it keeps working!

• I used no conversion kit.
• Gorilla tape, ripped 26.4mm wide was placed and rubbed down on the rim that I cleaned first with acetone.
  

The width between flanges is 19mm and change.

You can see that I made the tape as wide as possible: it runs up the side of the rim but stops before the bead seating area.

The Gorilla Tape was applied according to the Park Tools video.

I removed the rim strip tape. But on second thought (see the Gorilla Tape video embedded at posting #15 below), there was no reason to remove the rim strip tape, and there are advantages in leaving it installed.

I started the tape between two randomly chosen spoke holes, not the valve hole, and overlapped the tape by a couple of inches.

Instead of poking or cutting a hole through the tape for the valve stem I used my conical tip butane soldering iron to melt a hole though the tape.

The Stans Schrader valve is reall pricey @ $16 for the pair. But they are good quality and much more robust than Presta valves; they can't be accicentally bent and ruined.

 

[Reid]

That is about twice the amount of sealant I would use for a tire that size. More is not always better as it can coagulate and ball up if there is too much in there....

It is 2 ounces. Having never done this before I just followed the Orange Seal Endurance bottle suggestion of 1 to 2 ounces for a 700C tire; mine being considerably larger at 38C than a road bike tire, I used perhaps more than necessary.

The only tubeless conversion I know of that doesn't entail tubeless rated rims and tires is the ghetto method of using a size smaller split tube. Total PITA to put together though.

You know already now, by newly installed picture above, if that rim is "tubeless ready." Let me know?

My tire's wire beads were not going to seat. If so, I was not going to do the ghetto trick. I'd just put back the inner tube and call it a lesson learned.

Inspection revealed the difficulty was caused by these molded nibs evenly spaced all around the bead diameter, about 3 inches apart one from another. Many, many, many of them. These nibs were making an air seating an impossibility:

I sanded most all of them down like shown below, until I realized that equal results can be gotten,without compromising the vital fabric threads, by close-nipping the the nibs off with a pair of miniature flush cutting nippers. But here you see a nib that was sanded down:

Amazingly after non-seating-results before, with a smoothed bead, the bead instantly seated and the tire inflated in a second or so. There was no popping sound at all. I then let out the air and installed 2 ounces of the Endurance sealant. But because the tire lever had been in place for a few minutes, when the lever was removed the bead would not at first seal there at the place where it had been distorted. But when it finally did: phhhhht! Presto! Done!

 

[JRA]

The sealant will interact with the gorilla tape and after it is on there for awhile when you go to change your tire it will peel and need to be redone. At least that was my experience and why I only use the approved tape now.

The bead seat is an important aspect of the tubeless interface and although that looks about right it is hard to tell. If you have something on the rim stamped anywhere you can probably find out.

Tubeless tires abound and are not all that pricey either. For sure you will have better success with the proper ones.

 

[Reid]

The sealant will interact with the gorilla tape and after it is on there for awhile when you go to change your tire it will peel and need to be redone. At least that was my experience and why I only use the approved tape now.

The bead seat is an important aspect of the tubeless interface and although that looks about right it is hard to tell. If you have something on the rim stamped anywhere you can probably find out.

Tubeless tires abound and are not all that pricey either. For sure you will have better success with the proper ones.

Yes, I am good with your advice! I will see how this works for me and in time make adjustments as needed.

There is nothing stamped on the rim to indicate anything. However, it appears that the wire bead of the tire captures in the hooked profile of the rim. If so, great: no worry about the tire ever blowing off the rim.

I hope to continue with these Michelins because I like them. I certainly will not mind to change the tape if it deteriorates.

The Park video below uses Gorilla tape; that's where I got the notion it would be OK (for this trial run, at least).

One thing in particular I expect, is to have to air up these tires daily, and for the same reason that latex inner tubes require daily topping up: porosity on the molecular level.

This tire would not hold pressure when I briefly tried latex tubes months ago. So it sure can't do even that well, now!

A tubeless-intended tire is specially compounded to be less porous, right?

 

[JRA]

A properly set up tubeless should not lose air every day. I know mine don't anyway. I always check my psi before riding and only every so often do I have to add any air.

I am not up on the actual compounds used to make a tubeless tire as I know someone that designs them for a living and I leave that to him. I just use his products.

"I certainly will not mind to change the tape if it deteriorates."

You may change your mind when/if it happens as it was a PITA to get all the goo from the tape off the rim and that is why I went to the tape method.

 

[Reid]

A properly set up tubeless should not lose air every day. I know mine don't anyway. I always check my psi before riding and only every so often do I have to add any air.

I am not up on the actual compounds used to make a tubeless tire as I know someone that designs them for a living and I leave that to him. I just use his products.

"I certainly will not mind to change the tape if it deteriorates."

You may change your mind when/if it happens as it was a PITA to get all the goo from the tape off the rim and that is why I went to the tape method.

What tape type/brand would I use? Can it be ripped to a custom ideal width? Or is the width not all that important? Thanks!

Here is the new valve. Schrader goes against fashion today but it more robust than Presta and I will be airing up a lot!

Here is the sealant I chose.

 

[JRA]

What tape type/brand would I use? Can it be ripped to a custom ideal width? Or is the width not all that important? Thanks!

Here is the new valve. Schrader goes against fashion today but it more robust than Presta and I will be airing up a lot!

Here is the sealant I chose.

I use WTB TCS tape but I would venture to say that any of the tubeless specific tapes I have seen are pretty much the same product with different branding. They are available in many widths and can be altered for sure. The way you have the Gorilla tape installed is just right and you will have the best luck emulating that as you don't want it too wide or too narrow.

I have no problems with Schrader valves and didn't even know those existed. Thanks for sharing. As an aside my preferred method of applying the sealant is to remove the valve core, most presta valves these days have removable cores, and inject the sealant. This is of course after getting the tire bead set without it in there which with any good system is easy to do but the bead seating pops still scare me sometimes! A Schrader valve is easy to remove and is the standard at gas stations/pay pumps which sometimes is the difference of walking or riding. Pretty much all the hand pumps have the ability to do either also.

Orange Seal has good reviews but as I maintain some 8 tubeless wheels I go with the economy version and get twice as much for the same price. https://www.ebay.com/itm/260964032223 It works as advertised and after it sealed a screw hole in my 40c tire and revived itself, and a good amount leaked out while removing the screw and getting the pump going, just using my mini pump and didn't lose any air the rest of the ride I don't feel the need to look elsewhere.

There are some that put glitter and some other mad science stuff in along with but have never tried any of that.

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Very good discussion guys, thanks for future reference.

 

[Reid]

I use WTB TCS tape but I would venture to say that any of the tubeless specific tapes I have seen are pretty much the same product with different branding. They are available in many widths and can be altered for sure. The way you have the Gorilla tape installed is just right and you will have the best luck emulating that as you don't want it too wide or too narrow.

I have no problems with Schrader valves and didn't even know those existed. Thanks for sharing. As an aside my preferred method of applying the sealant is to remove the valve core, most presta valves these days have removable cores, and inject the sealant. This is of course after getting the tire bead set without it in there which with any good system is easy to do but the bead seating pops still scare me sometimes! A Schrader valve is easy to remove and is the standard at gas stations/pay pumps which sometimes is the difference of walking or riding. Pretty much all the hand pumps have the ability to do either also.

Orange Seal has good reviews but as I maintain some 8 tubeless wheels I go with the economy version and get twice as much for the same price. https://www.ebay.com/itm/260964032223 It works as advertised and after it sealed a screw hole in my 40c tire and revived itself, and a good amount leaked out while removing the screw and getting the pump going, just using my mini pump and didn't lose any air the rest of the ride I don't feel the need to look elsewhere.

There are some that put glitter and some other mad science stuff in along with but have never tried any of that.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience, JRA! Them what does, know!

And here is encouragement just found, from Schwalbe, who have adopted the 20-years-ago Stans revolution, https://www.schwalbetires.com/tubeless-technology

THE INNOVATION
A few years ago we started focusing very intensively on tubeless and especially on tubeless for racing bikes. In this context, we learned: tubeless on racing bikes is an exceptionally challenging innovation. This is because manufacturing high-pressure capable tubeless tires to an excellent level is anything other than easy.

We are now convinced: tubeless is the tire technology of the future.

This is because tubeless offers clear benefits in terms of speed, comfort, grip and puncture protection for all sporty and ambitious cyclists. This not only applies off the road but also on the road – with both racing bikes and touring bikes.

• Friction between the tire and tube is now a thing of the past. This crucially reduces the rolling resistance. It is even smaller than with super light competition tires.
• With tubeless, you can ride with less air pressure – without restrictions to performance! This brings noticeable advantages in comfort, but also significantly more control in critical situations and on poor routes.
• Tubeless systems provide very high puncture protection. Sudden air loss due to bursting tubes or valves tearing is ruled out. At the same time, a puncture protection fluid seals incisions within a tenth of a second, during the ride.

 

[JRA]

I know that Schwalbe gets a lot of positive reviews on the forums but there are other brands that have been at it just as long and have equally good tires and tubeless systems. Choice is good but can also be confusing.

I like the WTB TCS system because it mates the tire to their rim which most companies don't do. They have the sizes and tread patterns for the tires that I require and have had excellent results using it.

https://www.wtb.com/pages/tcs

 

[Reid]

I know that Schwalbe gets a lot of positive reviews on the forums but there are other brands that have been at it just as long and have equally good tires and tubeless systems. Choice is good but can also be confusing.

I like the WTB TCS system because it mates the tire to their rim which most companies don't do. They have the sizes and tread patterns for the tires that I require and have had excellent results using it.

View attachment 21226

https://www.wtb.com/pages/tcs

That's great, too, really educational! Thank you!

This afternoon I converted the rear wheel. Piece of cake. Used mini flush cutting nippers (Prime, under five dollars) to remove all the projecting nibs from the wired bead of the Protek. Absolutely automatic sealing of the bead resulted. I am using a locking chuck inflator that costs $12 and is fine quality and a very quiet one gallon air compressor like this. It is very handy to have even a small and low CFM compressor, not only for airing tires instantly but for blowing dust off things, sand out of shoes, etc. Here is a good starter kit of fittings.

Back to the topic and in conclusion, our CCS stock rims are nearly "tubeless ready," inasmuch as the CCS rim has a hook

ideal for a wire beaded tire at the least:

And as for the tire's bead surface, my incompatible Protek were easily adaptable by making the tire bead smooth, by removing the rubber nib artifacts of the molding process. You may have similarly easy and good results!

Have dropped pressure of both 38C tires to 50 PSI for now. Rides smoother at the new lower pressure, for sure, and the new freedom from thorn flats is like a vacation from worry.

This is a resource thread. Will apply more info as more is learned. Thank you, JRA, for your help.

• A Schrader valve is best for our bikes

Gorilla tape, if you go that route, applied in the best way:

 

[Reid]

I want to thank JRA, in particular.

He gave a great deal of practical information and supplied a link to a really good sealant sold at a reasonable price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/260964032223

Thanks!

 

[JRA]

Just an additional Caveat is that after having gone through the Ghetto and Gorilla tape conversions in the past with some success and some not as successful results I personally have decided that using a comprehensive system like the TCS is worth the effort and expense to achieve. In other words if it isn't engineered as tubeless ready I don't recommend going in that direction. The interface of the tire to the road is not something that you want to have be at all questionable as losing psi or rolling a tire while riding can be hazardous.

Also it should be noted that tubeless sealant can be applied to conventional tubes in the same manner as "slime". I still use this method in the one hub motor wheel I have that doesn't have a certified rim due to I couldn't find a 36h one suitable. It has been trouble free for over a year. I think it works better than my earlier efforts with Slime. Note that Slime has come out with a tubeless specific sealant and they offered up a free sample that I took advantage of but haven't had a chance to apply it yet.

 

[Reid]

This ghetto conversion of Michelin Protek Urban tires (38c nominal, 42mm actual width) on stock rims is working very well these past few days since their tubelessness conversion.

I run the rear at 50PSI and the front at 35PSI.

The bike is a lot more compliant to the road now and no harder to pedal than when I ran inner tubes pumped up to around 90PSI.

Mainly, though: no more worries about punctures and an improved ride quality! The other main goal is to reduce rolling resistance to a practical minimum. The Protek Urban is good. Yet, better can be found: I want a larger tire, as large as practical to fit, so long as it is efficient: for compliance to the road and reduction of already low vibration sent to my arms.

The tire must be supple; suppleness is the most important factor for rolling efficiency!

Here seems to be the best available bet!

I will probably order these Schwalbe tires soon.

With them I can go off the pavement at speed with more confidence, bypassing lines of stalled cars!

 

[Rooster]

This ghetto conversion of Michelin Protek Urban tires (38c nominal, 42mm actual width) on stock rims is working very well these past few days since their tubelessness conversion.

I run the rear at 50PSI and the front at 35PSI.

The bike is a lot more compliant to the road now and no harder to pedal than when I ran inner tubes pumped up to around 90PSI.

Mainly, though: no more worries about punctures and an improved ride quality! The other main goal is to reduce rolling resistance to a practical minimum. The Protek Urban is good. Yet, better can be found: I want a larger tire, as large as practical to fit, so long as it is efficient: for compliance to the road and reduction of already low vibration sent to my arms.

The tire must be supple; suppleness is the most important factor for rolling efficiency!

Here seems to be the best available bet!
View attachment 21672View attachment 21672
I will probably order these Schwalbe tires soon.

With them I can go off the pavement at speed with more confidence, bypassing lines of stalled cars!

I'm running vee rubber speedsters 26x2.80 tires on my ocean current and I believe they are tubeless ready but I'm running with tubes and I go 25 miles a day and haven't put air in either tire in months and haven't lost a pound. I can live with the extra weight.

 

[Rooster]

This ghetto conversion of Michelin Protek Urban tires (38c nominal, 42mm actual width) on stock rims is working very well these past few days since their tubelessness conversion.

I run the rear at 50PSI and the front at 35PSI.

The bike is a lot more compliant to the road now and no harder to pedal than when I ran inner tubes pumped up to around 90PSI.

Mainly, though: no more worries about punctures and an improved ride quality! The other main goal is to reduce rolling resistance to a practical minimum. The Protek Urban is good. Yet, better can be found: I want a larger tire, as large as practical to fit, so long as it is efficient: for compliance to the road and reduction of already low vibration sent to my arms.

The tire must be supple; suppleness is the most important factor for rolling efficiency!

Here seems to be the best available bet!
View attachment 21672View attachment 21672
I will probably order these Schwalbe tires soon.

With them I can go off the pavement at speed with more confidence, bypassing lines of stalled cars!

Do they come in sizes other than 29?

 

[Reid]

I'm running vee rubber speedsters 26x2.80 tires on my ocean current and I believe they are tubeless ready but I'm running with tubes and I go 25 miles a day and haven't put air in either tire in months and haven't lost a pound. I can live with the extra weight. Do they come in sizes other than 29?

Hello, Rooster. I wish I could run that wide a tire! Dang you are a lucky dog to have a cruiser frame that generously sized; A CCS frame, for instance, cannot take a 2.35" wide tire.

Schwalbe terms 700c tires wider than 42mm, as 29 inch, I will guess because the OD of the tire has grown about that big.

Yes, they come in other sizes than the stated 29. Check the link for available sizes?

Will order the tires from Germany because that linked supplier seems to be the cheapest source.

The new tires will not be much wider than the CCS stock Kendas, but they will on the order of a half inch wider than the current Michelin Protek 38c tires and hold a lot more air. Will the new tires:

Specifications:
Application: Gravel
Product Line: Evolution Line (competition)
Type: folding tyre
Tubeless System: Tubeless Easy

Technical Information:
Rubber Compound: OneStar
Tread: HS 472
Carcass: 67 tpi
Sidewalls: SnakeSkin
Puncture Protection: V-Guard

pedal better, ride better, grip better, brake better, go over sand better than stock? What would make them faster and smoother running: nixing the V-guard and Snakeskin and Tubeless Easy features and option instead a version of the tire that uses Schwalbe 127 tpi fabric, not at all puncture resistant. But I am going to make it tubeless with sealant and don't have much on the roads here to gash a delicate sidewall. However, unfortunately, the 2 inch wide G-One stire is available in the relatively armored and thus a bit less supple, specification.

Should be a treat, nontheless. Ordering soon from Germany...