Total e-bike ban after a fatality in Key Biscayne, FLA

[m@Robertson]

The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There isn't going to be an all or nothing ban that sticks. Ever.

I would boil down the musts to this:

1. People have to keep buying ebikes.

When there's one in every garage, you will gain very little traction trying to ban them or otherwise create a BS rule that has no basis in reality. Further, an elected official has much less upside to pissing off all of the registered voters who put them in office and can also vote them out.

In other words... play the long game and stop worrying.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There isn't going to be an all or nothing ban that sticks. Ever.

Please explain how that would work. Given that e-bikes are a tangible physical product that you can't hide and has a large supply chain that needs to be operating behind it to keep it working and in existence.

Banned e-bikes would be subject to confiscation. Most folks aren't going to risk letting something that they spent thousands of dollars on be taken away, or for that matter spend thousands of dollars on something that they lose if they operated it outside...

Banned e-bikes means they couldn't be sold in bike shops or even have spare parts distributed. So even if you have one it won't be running for very long...

Banned e-bikes mean your LBS couldn't and wouldn't work on it. So the large percentage of e-bikers who can't fix a flat won't be riding for very long...

Banned e-bikes means you couldn't operate a business renting e-bikes. 'nuff said.

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

 

[jabberwocky]

When there's one in every garage, you will gain very little traction trying to ban them or otherwise create a BS rule that has no basis in reality. Further, an elected official has much less upside to pissing off all of the registered voters who put them in office and can also vote them out.

In other words... play the long game and stop worrying.

Its a nice thought, but I'll eat my hat if even 25% of households own an ebike within my lifetime. Bicycles have been around for well over a century, and motorcycles just about as long, and while both have carved out a niche for themselves neither have ever built up ownership numbers that enables them to be regulation proof. I see ebikes as a nice in-between, but its hard to imagine them massively changing the transportation landscape, as nice as that sounds to those of us who like to ride them.

I wouldn't bank on ownership numbers or outright popularity to ever just hand us what we want.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

I would extend this thought further and suggest it may seem stupid to us, but could be perfectly logical for the government if the outcry from banning (or heavily regulating) is less of a concern that doing something to assuage citizens who have issues with them.

I don't personally think widespread outright bans are likely at the moment, but I definitely see the ebike community accumulating a very poor reputation with some jurisdications and other user groups. If we keep it up, those chickens will eventually come home to roost in some form.

 

[PDoz]

So the police are still investigating? But they have already been given the power to confiscate these motorbikes?

Would it be reasonable to assume that if the police believed this ban was justified, every one of these kids would be walking by now? Even one cop who believed in this would be enough.

Imagine if the 12 yo was trying to escape from danger

 

[m@Robertson]

Please explain how that would work. Given that e-bikes are a tangible physical product that you can't hide and has a large supply chain that needs to be operating behind it to keep it working and in existence.

Simple. There's too many of them to enforce a ban. Try enforcing a ban on bicycles. When ebikes are that common, the level of trouble needed to enforce some kind of ban is going to be far more trouble than its worth. Right now, in my community, I think ebike commuters and recreational riders, combined (i.e. all bike riders) probably outnumber bicycles. Maybe by rather a lot. I count as I go about my regular routes and - in a community with rather a lot of bikes on the paths and the roads, sometimes I see 75% ebikes.

My community enforced a 12 mph ebike-on-the-path speed limit a couple of years ago IIRC. Comments at the time were centered along the lines of "how will you enforce that?" The answer is they don't. But it also signaled the complete disappearance of city-council-based complaints. We did see a few bicycle cops on the path for awhile but they disappeared fairly quickly. Not a surprise that funding dried up in favor of better uses for the resources.

Banned e-bikes would be subject to confiscation. Most folks aren't going to risk letting something that they spent thousands of dollars on be taken away, or for that matter spend thousands of dollars on something that they lose if they operated it outside...

Easy to type that and thats it. Confiscating personal property lawfully acquired is, frankly, ridiculous to even contemplate. Think for a minute how utterly impossible it has been to try that with firearms. Move towards private property confiscation (again... where that property was lawful at the time of purchase and lawfully acquired) and that is a can of worms with zero chance of success.

The NYC confiscations were done on bikes that were never lawful in that jurisdiction, so they don't count.

Banned e-bikes means they couldn't be sold in bike shops or even have spare parts distributed. So even if you have one it won't be running for very long...

You can't even do that with gun parts. What are you going to do? Scan the mails from AliExpress? Do you realize what kind of infrastructure that would require? Again thats easy to type but an enormous amount of actual resources (legal and physical) to actually make happen somewhere besides an internet forum discussion.

Banned e-bikes mean your LBS couldn't and wouldn't work on it. So the large percentage of e-bikers who can't fix a flat won't be riding for very long...

NYC can't even shut down underground battery 'repair' shops. When there is a buck to be made, people will step into that vacuum. But again I don't see any chance of it getting this far outside of a forum post. For such a thing to happen a lot of other extremely unlikely things have to happen first.

Banned e-bikes means you couldn't operate a business renting e-bikes. 'nuff said.

Yeah thats true. But so what? That isn't going to do a thing to prevent ebikes from being in private hands. If anything it would mean more people buy them if they can't rent the things.

Here locally, a couple of shops rent Surrey bikes. Those things are an absolute menace and I can remember one day with two separate paramedic trucks at different places along the main community bike path where children had been smashed into by them. Everybody hates the things and for good reason. But they're still being rented. The businesses are local, they pay taxes and no local politician on general principles wants to shut down a longtime local business... or be seen doing that. This is another argument that gains far more traction on the internet than it does in real life.

Yes, you could argue that a ban would be stupid. But governments do stupid things all the time and usually get away with being stupid.

This isn't going to be one of those. Sure lesser things can and will happen. Stuff like UL certification.

A whole other angle to this that hasn't been contemplated: Ebikes are the only real bright spot in the profit/loss statements of many bicycle manufacturers, and that industry makes contributions and has lobbyists. Again to address the narrow question of the possibility of a ban: This is one more reason a ban is simply never going to come close to happening.

Still another angle: Ebikes are a key to a progressive clean air agenda at a policy level. The government WANTS more ebikes from a long term policy perspective (at least that is certainly true here in California). They aren't going to give up on that because of some Nervous Nellies trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer, which is what any talk of a total ban is ... and then some.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its a nice thought, but I'll eat my hat if even 25% of households own an ebike within my lifetime.

Of course I was speaking broadly for the sake of succinctness (which sounds hard to believe coming from me). I don't expect universal adoption. But what I do expect, over the course of years, is for the 'e' in ebike to become the norm and not the exception for the people who buy bicycle-shaped objects. It is clearly on the way there now, and we are seeing some not unexpected growing pains as a result. Not the least of which come from parents handing their kids ebikes and failing to actually be parents and teach them safety.

Given that, change the "electric bicycle ban" to "bicycle ban" and while the former may seem do-able in a forum argument, the latter is recognizably impossible on its face. Our society is moving in that direction. I see no sign of this changing, and no credible source claiming it will other than a general market downturn that has nothing to do with ebikes. The AMA report on ebike injuries late last year noted an enormous increase in ebike purchases in just the last couple of years.

 

[6zfshdb]

Here's another thought.

On the many trails I frequent, I've seen an explosion of e-bikes in the last 2 years. Now, every third bike I pass is an e-bike. Federal and state parks WANT people to use their facilities and their budgets depend on it. Sure, there will be e-bike regulations but never an outright ban.

 

[PatriciaK]

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes. The thing ridden by the 12 year old that killed the unfortunate woman is NOT, in my opinion, an ebike. The vehicles lined up outside the school in the picture are NOT ebikes. Those things ought to be able to be easily regulated. They should be illegal for anyone too young for a learners' permit to operate in any public space. They should require some sort of registration and licensing at the appropriate age (15), and at that time should be operated only on streets. All of the vehicles by the school should be impounded.

We really need to work to separate ebikes from any type of emotos, especially in the minds of those doing the regulating and banning.

 

[Robspace1]

Folks,
Do we ban all cars when someone is hit or dies because of one? We have 43,000 automotive related deaths per year in the U.S. My aunt Lucile with Parkinsons was hit by a regular road bike an died in New Hampshire. No fault found. These are called accidents for a reason. Think of the upside of fewer cars on the roads and of micro-mobility accessibility. Yes, accidents do happen. We have come to accept that fact. It is better with 40 pounds at 20 mph or 4,000 pounds at 55 mph. All the clunky inexpensive internet only eBikes have hand throttles or can be ghost pedaled, but it is what parents can afford. These kids are our future, and they are moving in the right direction, toward green micro-mobility.

"All the clunky inexpensive internet only eBikes have hand throttles or can be ghost pedaled, but it is what parents can afford." Wtf? I bought my ebike online 3 years ago. It has a throttle. I only use it on takeoffs. My bike is great, 1000 watts, and super safe. The problem is not the vehicle but it's rider. A 12 year old boy is simply not responsible enough to handle motorized bikes. Should be a 15 year age limit in place for any ebike, one wheel, or scooter put on the street.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

m@Robertson​

Let's just say I very much hope you are right, but I do not share your optimism.

On the comparisons with firearm bans, I think you know that is quite a bit different. Firearm owners are a very loud and noisy and politically powerful minority. And last I checked there is no XXXVIIth amendment given the people the right to keep and bear e-bikes. Though it would be a fun idea.

Also, we are a tiny minority. I'd reckon that on the order of 2 percent of adult Americans ride a bike more than once a week. And e-bikers are a percentage of that percentage. Also, the most highly visible part of that tiny minority is the most obnoxious and annoying and the thing that most civilians see and interact with. We aren't the only activity that gets bad PR from the most annoying participants (road bikers and snowboarders also have that problem) but we are the new kid on the block which is automatically a tick against us.

I think complacency isn't a likely path to success here. I'd argue that being a good citizen is. First and foremost that means not being a jerk and realizing that your behavior represents not just you, but all e-bikers. Second that means being an active and visible member of the community, which means putting in the work of going to public meetings that nobody else shows up at, and having a good story about what you want to advocate for.

Which gets to the next part -- I don't think advocating for some kind of libertarian "Wild West" fantasy with zero regulation plays very well. I think it is possible to advocate for appropriate e-bike usage, and also appropriate restrictions. I think very few folks here would think it makes any sense to use an e-bike on a trail like Whistler's A-Line, I think very few folks here argue that children should operate e-bikes without at least some restrictions, and I think most folks here realize there is a heck of a difference between an electric bicycle and an electric motorcycle. Also, most of us here live indoors and have a lively interest in making sure our homes are not burnt down by an e-bike battery.

 

[Gordon71]

"there is no XXXVIIth amendment given the people the right to keep and bear e-bikes." There probably wouldn't have been a 2nd Amendment either if the authors had a crystal ball that could see the future.

 

[PedalUma]

crystal ball that could see the future

They didn't say one peep about firearms. And even if they did, with originalist intent, it would have been a single shot flint lock that was six feet long, and weighed 20 pounds, and took minutes to reload, that they had in mind.

 

[m@Robertson]

m@Robertson​

Let's just say I very much hope you are right, but I do not share your optimism.

On the comparisons with firearm bans, I think you know that is quite a bit different.

Bear in mind, you were talking about a ban, and I made a point of restricting my comments to a refutation of that concept, partly thru arguments of approaching ubiquity, partly thru pointing out that confiscation of lawfully acquired property is considered anathema/intolerable to our society. I also allowed that there is regulation on the way.

I know there are many issues separating firearms (and simple gun parts since you mentioned a parts ban) from the present topic, but the comparison is apt nonetheless since the real takeaway from the comparisons is how utterly impossible such a thing was/is from the standpoint of practicality. As in just look at all the holes in the dyke you'd have to stick fingers into. As imperfect as it was I used it anyway as it was the only comparison I could come up with off the cuff at the time.

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes.

But if the goal is for a better society and a long view is taken, I think you have to broaden your definition and welcome them into the mix of transportation. Doesn't matter if they fit a pre-existing definition. Fact is, young urban riders are not as apt to run out and buy a car, which in this country is a 100% given, and why bicycles are almost universally considered to be transportation only for children, and recreational toys for a small fraction of adults.

We need to look at bikes as two-wheeled, more-efficient, clean transportation... and eliminate the stigma of requiring effort for locomotion (gasp!). Keep the attitude and you keep the cars that are spawned by old perceptions.

 

[PedalUma]

An organization called Cool Petaluma (anti-climate change) referred a 68-year-old woman to me. We test rode eBikes yesterday for four miles. Then I let her test on her own for the afternoon. She left her car with me. She went another 8 miles and spontaneously met two eBiking friends by a café. She loves that social aspect of not just rushing by neighbors trapped in cars, but with human contact and interactions, and sights and sounds. 12 miles is more than she would normally ride in one month. Now she is part of the growing eBike cool people ladies club. She purchased the bike. A step-through. Next she is getting a rack and panniers for errands and shopping at farmer's markets. It goes over 20 so it is a class 3. An eBike is a positive life-changer and great for the community in every way.

Edit:
A cyclist in Oregon was ridding along when a reckless driver in a van flipped it, and it rolled, killing the cyclist. So, they restricted bikes.
This arrived while I was having lunch:

Climate Column: The Power of Peer Pressure — Cool Petaluma

Are you old enough to remember when smoking was normal? Can you imagine a future where pulling up to your friend’s house in a gas car is as unacceptable as walking in the door and lighting up a cigarette?

www.coolpetaluma.org

 

[AvalancheRun]

But if the goal is for a better society and a long view is taken, I think you have to broaden your definition and welcome them into the mix of transportation. Doesn't matter if they fit a pre-existing definition. Fact is, young urban riders are not as apt to run out and buy a car, which in this country is a 100% given, and why bicycles are almost universally considered to be transportation only for children, and recreational toys for a small fraction of adults.

We need to look at bikes as two-wheeled, more-efficient, clean transportation... and eliminate the stigma of requiring effort for locomotion (gasp!). Keep the attitude and you keep the cars that are spawned by old perceptions.

I agree with the benefits, and the fact that people see e-motos as viable non-car transportation. I see half a dozen to a dozen every time I ride my bike. However, they shouldn't be in bike lanes, sidewalks, or trails mixing with bicycles and pedestrians. It's not legal for good reason. Those spaces are protected from higher powered vehicles like Surrons (50+ mph throttle only moto commonly called an e-bike).

When I had my Globe Haul (a US legal e-bike) before returning it I felt the same way. I didn't feel comfortable on crowded mixed-use trails and shortly after stopped riding them. The Haul weighs probably 100+ lbs with basic accessories installed and takes up a good bit of space. With some cargo or a passenger you could hit the 420 lb gross capacity fairly easily.

It's truly great to see that people are choosing alternatives to driving. We just need to have some nuance here. My friends with gas scooters don't ride them in those protected spaces because it would be inappropriate. Even ridden slowly they tend to kick up a ton of dust compared to other trail users.

Would treating them like gas scooters or motorcycles kill the uptake? Maybe we need new guidelines for e-scooters/motos specifically since they do have one major benefit which is zero noise/air pollution.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Edit:
A cyclist in Oregon was ridding along when a reckless driver in a van flipped it, and it rolled, killing the cyclist. So, they restricted bikes.
This arrived while I was having lunch:

Climate Column: The Power of Peer Pressure — Cool Petaluma

Are you old enough to remember when smoking was normal? Can you imagine a future where pulling up to your friend’s house in a gas car is as unacceptable as walking in the door and lighting up a cigarette?

www.coolpetaluma.org

Very sad news. I'm confused about the context though. Is the link supposed to be for the van/bike accident?

 

[PedalUma]

Very sad news. I'm confused about the context though. Is the link supposed to be for the van/bike accident?

That article by Natasha is just very local for carbon neutrality by 2030 in this one town.

'Trenton Burger, 15, was killed last June while riding an e-bike (just a bike) on a sidewalk along Highway 20 in northeast Bend, OR when a van turned right and struck and killed him.' A right hook, it happens all the time with cars. Instead of restricting vans, they retaliated on bikes and then shamelessly named the these restrictions after the victim of the deadly van assault. It is blaming the victim. Nutty drivers are the problem, not bikes. The kid did not threaten or harm anyone. Cars regularly try to speed to out run bikes to make a right. I punched one as it attacked me doing $1200 in damage to the assaultive offender because I wacked a fender seam in a defensive back handed reflex as it attacked. They are made of foil. It felt good. You should try it yourself! Crunch, its like stepping on a used Doller Tree foil turkey pan.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Food for thought. Maybe we need to be better citizens.

 

[Robspace1]

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes. The thing ridden by the 12 year old that killed the unfortunate woman is NOT, in my opinion, an ebike. The vehicles lined up outside the school in the picture are NOT ebikes. Those things ought to be able to be easily regulated. They should be illegal for anyone too young for a learners' permit to operate in any public space. They should require some sort of registration and licensing at the appropriate age (15), and at that time should be operated only on streets. All of the vehicles by the school should be impounded.

We really need to work to separate ebikes from any type of emotos, especially in the minds of those doing the regulating and banning.

A 12 year old dosen't even need to be riding anything with a motor on the roads. They need to build up muscle by peddling. To ride quads off road in the dirt is ok with an adult but not alone, and never on the streets. Yea, more laws are coming.