Total e-bike ban after a fatality in Key Biscayne, FLA

[Mr. Coffee]

How's that?
People die everyday from avoidable accidents.
Yet we still have guns, opioids and even cars and go swimming... etc...

Yes, and e-bike manufacturers and operators have just as much political clout as gun operators or giant pharmaceutical companies. Right.

I've been saying for years that we have a choice between working for some kind of reasonable regulations on e-bikes that do the most good and the least harm, or we will be facing a total ban. The consensus on this board seems to be that any kind of regulations are too hard and unfair. So likely we are going to see total bans on e-bikes, which have the virtue of simplicity, will be easier to enforce, and will require fewer resources than more complex regulations.

The smart thing would be to works towards, as I said, reasonable regulations that minimize risk to innocent bystanders at the lowest cost. But it is abundantly clear that we won't do the smart thing. If you think that more bans aren't coming you are badly out of touch and ridiculously complacent.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Yes, and e-bike manufacturers and operators have just as much political clout as gun operators or giant pharmaceutical companies. Right.

I've been saying for years that we have a choice between working for some kind of reasonable regulations on e-bikes that do the most good and the least harm, or we will be facing a total ban. The consensus on this board seems to be that any kind of regulations are too hard and unfair. So likely we are going to see total bans on e-bikes, which have the virtue of simplicity, will be easier to enforce, and will require fewer resources than more complex regulations.

The smart thing would be to works towards, as I said, reasonable regulations that minimize risk to innocent bystanders at the lowest cost. But it is abundantly clear that we won't do the smart thing. If you think that more bans aren't coming you are badly out of touch and ridiculously complacent.

Maybe switch to Decaffeinated
It's tomorrow.... and the sun came out.

Is there a compromise over Key Biscayne's E-bike & scooter law?

Proposals intensify in wake of fatal Key Biscayne crash that killed a beloved Key Biscayne tutor.

www.wlrn.org

Village’s temporary ban of e-bikes driven by tragedy, but likelihood of a permanent bans is low

Key Biscayne's decision Friday morning to completely ban electric bikes, motorized scooters and similar devices for at least 60 days is not a precedent. However, according to Islander News research,

www.islandernews.com

 

[kevinmccune]

Yes, and e-bike manufacturers and operators have just as much political clout as gun operators or giant pharmaceutical companies. Right.

I've been saying for years that we have a choice between working for some kind of reasonable regulations on e-bikes that do the most good and the least harm, or we will be facing a total ban. The consensus on this board seems to be that any kind of regulations are too hard and unfair. So likely we are going to see total bans on e-bikes, which have the virtue of simplicity, will be easier to enforce, and will require fewer resources than more complex regulations.

The smart thing would be to works towards, as I said, reasonable regulations that minimize risk to innocent bystanders at the lowest cost. But it is abundantly clear that we won't do the smart thing. If you think that more bans aren't coming you are badly out of touch and ridiculously complacent.

my experience with 250 watt bikes has been favorable,the little 1/3 hp motor is a great help on the hills and usually you can put together a fairly light bike with reasonable battery and motor size,some of these monsters some people concoct give the reasonable ebike a bad name

 

[kevinmccune]

Maybe switch to Decaffeinated
It's tomorrow.... and the sun came out.

Is there a compromise over Key Biscayne's E-bike & scooter law?

Proposals intensify in wake of fatal Key Biscayne crash that killed a beloved Key Biscayne tutor.

www.wlrn.org

Village’s temporary ban of e-bikes driven by tragedy, but likelihood of a permanent bans is low

Key Biscayne's decision Friday morning to completely ban electric bikes, motorized scooters and similar devices for at least 60 days is not a precedent. However, according to Islander News research,

www.islandernews.com

the best decafe i ever drank was at an arbys in verona va.

 

[why?]

Always thought Class III (25-28mph) was just for adults (18 and up). A 12yr kid shouldn't be allowed to ride an ebike that's faster than his/her pedal power ... 15mph is fast enuf ...

Europe has the right idea with 250w Pedelec power when it comes to teenagers and adults.

Moments: Did you already know?

Look at the differences and similarities of pedelecs, e-bikes and s-pedelecs | Travel safely with Stromer | Drive the difference!

www.stromerbike.com

 

[Gionnirocket]

the best decafe i ever drank was at an arbys in verona va.

This stuff is pretty good.
Whole bean and Swiss Water Process makes all the difference.

I drink the same dark roast high octane for my first cup and mix the decaf/dark roast 60/40 for any subsequent.
Makes a decent latte, espresso and macchiato

 

[why?]

This stuff is pretty good.
Whole bean and Swiss Water Process makes all the difference.


View attachment 171709
I drink the same dark roast high octane for my first cup and mix the decaf/dark roast 60/40 for any subsequent.
Makes a decent latte, espresso and macchiato

Maybe the 66yr old woman had been drinking "dark roast high octane" ... surely not the 12yr young kid.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Maybe the 66yr old woman had been drinking dark roast high octane ... surely not the 12yr young kid.

I repeat... There's been no details on how the accident occurred. Estimated speed of each bike? Circumstances? Was the kid alone or in a pack? Injuries sustained?
What if the kid came around a blind corner not expecting her and was only going 12mph... then panicked crashing into her and knocking her off and into the curb where she hit her head?
Something similar actually happened to me at about that age on my bicycle and I ended up on the hood of a car kissing the windshield. Blind tight corner and I was more concerned about how fast I could go around the block. The driver wanted to kill me as I almost gave him a heart attack. I escaped with a few scrapes, shaken... AND educated. But sometimes life isn't so generous.

Still a tragedy.. but it may have been an accident as the police have deemed it. Or is he and ebikes automatically guilty because of past behavior of others?
I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.
Set reasonable rules and then make the punishment sting. Impound a few bikes with heavy fines and watch how things get better.

Middle of the road people.

 

[why?]

I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.

Apparently there were no witnesses to come forward. The boy's parents probably told him not to say anything.

Somekind of a ban would be a good start. Kids under 15 can only ride Class 1, not Class 2. Class 3 (25-28mph) not until they are 18 (adult).

 

[Djangodog]

I repeat... There's been no details on how the accident occurred. Estimated speed of each bike? Circumstances? Was the kid alone or in a pack? Injuries sustained?
What if the kid came around a blind corner not expecting her and was only going 12mph... then panicked crashing into her and knocking her off and into the curb where she hit her head?
Something similar actually happened to me at about that age on my bicycle and I ended up on the hood of a car kissing the windshield. Blind tight corner and I was more concerned about how fast I could go around the block. The driver wanted to kill me as I almost gave him a heart attack. I escaped with a few scrapes, shaken... AND educated. But sometimes life isn't so generous.

Still a tragedy.. but it may have been an accident as the police have deemed it. Or is he and ebikes automatically guilty because of past behavior of others?
I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.
Set reasonable rules and then make the punishment sting. Impound a few bikes with heavy fines and watch how things get better.

Middle of the road people.

If they figure out that his “ebike” is really an illegal electric motorbike the kid and the family may have some bigger problems than just banned e-bikes. Liability wise, if you are breaking the law the consequences can be extreme.

 

[Brian-s]

How's that?
People die everyday from avoidable accidents.
Yet we still have guns, opioids and even cars and go swimming... etc...

it might be true that people die every day from avoidable accidents. but to go back to an old movie, the joker rightly pointed out that expected deaths we just ignore. but when something unique and extraordinary happens we all freak out. as a result the normal kid gets hit by a normal bike ...normal business. Because e-bikes are still new and novel, we freak out with an ebike accident happens

 

[BlackHand]

Somekind of a ban would be a good start. Kids under 15 can only ride Class 1, not Class 2. Class 3 (25-28mph) not until they are 18 (adult).

Unfortunately, the FL state legislature chose to not include any age restrictions when they adopted the 3 class e-bike structure. I think pretty much every other state using the 3 class definition has age restrictions on class 3 at least.

 

[Rexlion]

This stuff is pretty good.
Whole bean and Swiss Water Process makes all the difference.


View attachment 171709
I drink the same dark roast high octane for my first cup and mix the decaf/dark roast 60/40 for any subsequent.
Makes a decent latte, espresso and macchiato

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

I need a dark roast as my morning coffee is a latte made with 50% milk. Light roast doesn't have enough flavor to be noticed. I don't mind a medium roast for an espresso though. The Lavazza decaf that has an excellent rating didn't even taste like coffee to me... Was more like toasted cardboard.
Florida is flat... But the heat and humidity could make an ebike attractive.

If they figure out that his “ebike” is really an illegal electric motorbike the kid and the family may have some bigger problems than just banned e-bikes. Liability wise, if you are breaking the law the consequences can be extreme.

I agree, especially if he was being reckless as well.
But there's just something odd about the silence on the details. No mention of bike class or even who was on the wrong side of the road. Everything I've read makes you think there is no further investigation or on going. Accident.
Perhaps because of the kid's age. . .

 

[kevinmccune]

I repeat... There's been no details on how the accident occurred. Estimated speed of each bike? Circumstances? Was the kid alone or in a pack? Injuries sustained?
What if the kid came around a blind corner not expecting her and was only going 12mph... then panicked crashing into her and knocking her off and into the curb where she hit her head?
Something similar actually happened to me at about that age on my bicycle and I ended up on the hood of a car kissing the windshield. Blind tight corner and I was more concerned about how fast I could go around the block. The driver wanted to kill me as I almost gave him a heart attack. I escaped with a few scrapes, shaken... AND educated. But sometimes life isn't so generous.

Still a tragedy.. but it may have been an accident as the police have deemed it. Or is he and ebikes automatically guilty because of past behavior of others?
I just don't like situations where so little information on what actually happened is provided.
A ban is not the answer.
Set reasonable rules and then make the punishment sting. Impound a few bikes with heavy fines and watch how things get better.

Middle of the road people.

gated communities are"no country for young men".

 

[kevinmccune]

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

250 watts there would be a plenty,middrive for the cargo bikes, a 250 watt bafang front wheel system weighs very little.

 

[FiremarshallDave]

Many of us in my area had gas powered mini bikes at that age. They were (are) illegal. But we quickly learned if we didn't piss people off and rode when and where it didn't affect others, the cops turned a blind eye.
Dumb parents and entitled kids ruin it for the rest of us sensible outlaws.

Give me an AMEN!

 

[FiremarshallDave]

At this point in time, I think the people arguing for a total e-bike ban have the better argument.

Civil action against irresponsible people (who might be unable to pay damages anyhow) is a poor substitute for preventing a wrongful death.

I'm all for it.... and we should also ban all motor cycles, and all cars and busses. Yes kids are killed by school busses ...and ban sugar and alcohol and guns and... you get my drift. You need to set speed limits and enforce them. no kid should be able to pull the blue wire that lets the controller have full power access. With the low power circuit in place speed would comply with U.S. law. First offense for under 16 is impoundment of the vehicle just like the mini bike of old. Should we as adults have access to more speed? Pass a motorcycle test. Demonstrate understanding of push away steering like a motorcycle and demonstrate braking proficiency. Carry personal liability insurance as well.

 

[FiremarshallDave]

Mayorga will send samples. I tried that dark Cubano decaf. Definitely didn't care for it (I've since found that I prefer light roasts), but I have to say the flavor is really distinctive. Sort of like char on a grilled steak. The other one I tried was the Honduras Capucas decaf and it seemed pretty good but unexceptional.

The Keys are flat as pancakes. If I lived in the Keys I probably would not use an ebike there; it's too easy to ride a regular bike on the flats. If I lived in the Keys and had a 12 year old kid, I'd tell my kid to be satisfied with a regular bike, too. Develop those leg muscles. They spend too much time sitting around playing with their devices anyway.

At age 13 I rode my first 64mile bike rally. I could easily ride 25 mph on my 10 speed and did. Yes, if someone pulled in front of me and I t boned them it would not be pretty. People often overlook bikes and pull in front of me. I ride very defensively as I value my life and have 50 years of riding experience. I know when to use speed and when to exercise caution. Cars doors scare me! Pedal bikes can be every bit as dangerous. How do we say you can pedal at 20-25 but can't use an ebike at the same speed? Some kids are responsible and some are not. Know your kid. I did work in a bike shop and had a 56 tooth front ring on a high end road bike. There were times I was over the speed limit but no officer ever pulled over a kid on a bike for speeding. I'm sure it's coming. Set up radar if the kids are out of hand and impound a few bikes then chat with parents when they come to the station. Don't let the karen's ruin life for everybody. Perhaps next year we will see a speed limit on the Tour De France of 17MPH. It would make for an interesting race. Perhaps settled by kicking and punching and lawyers to see who wears the yellow jersey.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm all for it.... and we should also ban all motor cycles, and all cars and busses. Yes kids are killed by school busses ...and ban sugar and alcohol and guns and... you get my drift. You need to set speed limits and enforce them. no kid should be able to pull the blue wire that lets the controller have full power access. With the low power circuit in place speed would comply with U.S. law. First offense for under 16 is impoundment of the vehicle just like the mini bike of old. Should we as adults have access to more speed? Pass a motorcycle test. Demonstrate understanding of push away steering like a motorcycle and demonstrate braking proficiency. Carry personal liability insurance as well.

You are making the assumption that such decisions are based on cold hard statistics rather than on perceptions.

E-bikes have a very negative perception with the general public, the news media, and with elected officials. That negative perception is going to drive more bans on e-bikes. Whataboutism isn't going to fix that.

There is an undeniable safety issue with e-bike battery fires. While one can argue about the exact reasons why, I don't think anyone can seriously argue that higher safety standards are not required for e-bike batteries and chargers. To a large extent that is the easiest problem to solve, because it is largely a technological and engineering problem.

There is an undeniable safety issue with children operating e-bikes. In particular when unsupervised and untrained children operate e-bikes that were never intended for operation by children.

Moreover, there is a substantial safety issue in the fact that an e-bike permits a less skilled and less fit cyclist to ride a much less maneuverable bike at higher speeds. Many have argued that "well, some roadies go 20+mph so why can't we?" Well, the simpler answer is a that a roadie who can hit 20+mph is way more skilled and experienced at the safe operation of his bike than the average e-biker could ever hope to be, and nearly any fast road bicycle is much more nimble than even the most maneuverable e-bikes. I've observed inexperienced cyclists on rental e-bikes in a number of locations and yeah, those people had no business being on an e-bike and were a danger to themselves and others.

What its going to take to keep e-bikes on the roads and trails:

1. E-bikers have to be active in community meetings and discussions about access for bicycles in general and e-bikes in particular.
2. E-bikers have to be perceived as positive contributors to the community and not as a nuisance.
3. E-bikers have to be willing to make some compromises. Some of those compromises we might not like but the choice is going to be that or nothing at all.