Total e-bike ban after a fatality in Key Biscayne, FLA

[Mr. Coffee]

m@Robertson​

Let's just say I very much hope you are right, but I do not share your optimism.

On the comparisons with firearm bans, I think you know that is quite a bit different. Firearm owners are a very loud and noisy and politically powerful minority. And last I checked there is no XXXVIIth amendment given the people the right to keep and bear e-bikes. Though it would be a fun idea.

Also, we are a tiny minority. I'd reckon that on the order of 2 percent of adult Americans ride a bike more than once a week. And e-bikers are a percentage of that percentage. Also, the most highly visible part of that tiny minority is the most obnoxious and annoying and the thing that most civilians see and interact with. We aren't the only activity that gets bad PR from the most annoying participants (road bikers and snowboarders also have that problem) but we are the new kid on the block which is automatically a tick against us.

I think complacency isn't a likely path to success here. I'd argue that being a good citizen is. First and foremost that means not being a jerk and realizing that your behavior represents not just you, but all e-bikers. Second that means being an active and visible member of the community, which means putting in the work of going to public meetings that nobody else shows up at, and having a good story about what you want to advocate for.

Which gets to the next part -- I don't think advocating for some kind of libertarian "Wild West" fantasy with zero regulation plays very well. I think it is possible to advocate for appropriate e-bike usage, and also appropriate restrictions. I think very few folks here would think it makes any sense to use an e-bike on a trail like Whistler's A-Line, I think very few folks here argue that children should operate e-bikes without at least some restrictions, and I think most folks here realize there is a heck of a difference between an electric bicycle and an electric motorcycle. Also, most of us here live indoors and have a lively interest in making sure our homes are not burnt down by an e-bike battery.

 

[Gordon71]

"there is no XXXVIIth amendment given the people the right to keep and bear e-bikes." There probably wouldn't have been a 2nd Amendment either if the authors had a crystal ball that could see the future.

 

[PedalUma]

crystal ball that could see the future

They didn't say one peep about firearms. And even if they did, with originalist intent, it would have been a single shot flint lock that was six feet long, and weighed 20 pounds, and took minutes to reload, that they had in mind.

 

[m@Robertson]

m@Robertson​

Let's just say I very much hope you are right, but I do not share your optimism.

On the comparisons with firearm bans, I think you know that is quite a bit different.

Bear in mind, you were talking about a ban, and I made a point of restricting my comments to a refutation of that concept, partly thru arguments of approaching ubiquity, partly thru pointing out that confiscation of lawfully acquired property is considered anathema/intolerable to our society. I also allowed that there is regulation on the way.

I know there are many issues separating firearms (and simple gun parts since you mentioned a parts ban) from the present topic, but the comparison is apt nonetheless since the real takeaway from the comparisons is how utterly impossible such a thing was/is from the standpoint of practicality. As in just look at all the holes in the dyke you'd have to stick fingers into. As imperfect as it was I used it anyway as it was the only comparison I could come up with off the cuff at the time.

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes.

But if the goal is for a better society and a long view is taken, I think you have to broaden your definition and welcome them into the mix of transportation. Doesn't matter if they fit a pre-existing definition. Fact is, young urban riders are not as apt to run out and buy a car, which in this country is a 100% given, and why bicycles are almost universally considered to be transportation only for children, and recreational toys for a small fraction of adults.

We need to look at bikes as two-wheeled, more-efficient, clean transportation... and eliminate the stigma of requiring effort for locomotion (gasp!). Keep the attitude and you keep the cars that are spawned by old perceptions.

 

[PedalUma]

An organization called Cool Petaluma (anti-climate change) referred a 68-year-old woman to me. We test rode eBikes yesterday for four miles. Then I let her test on her own for the afternoon. She left her car with me. She went another 8 miles and spontaneously met two eBiking friends by a café. She loves that social aspect of not just rushing by neighbors trapped in cars, but with human contact and interactions, and sights and sounds. 12 miles is more than she would normally ride in one month. Now she is part of the growing eBike cool people ladies club. She purchased the bike. A step-through. Next she is getting a rack and panniers for errands and shopping at farmer's markets. It goes over 20 so it is a class 3. An eBike is a positive life-changer and great for the community in every way.

Edit:
A cyclist in Oregon was ridding along when a reckless driver in a van flipped it, and it rolled, killing the cyclist. So, they restricted bikes.
This arrived while I was having lunch:

Climate Column: The Power of Peer Pressure — Cool Petaluma

Are you old enough to remember when smoking was normal? Can you imagine a future where pulling up to your friend’s house in a gas car is as unacceptable as walking in the door and lighting up a cigarette?

www.coolpetaluma.org

 

[AvalancheRun]

But if the goal is for a better society and a long view is taken, I think you have to broaden your definition and welcome them into the mix of transportation. Doesn't matter if they fit a pre-existing definition. Fact is, young urban riders are not as apt to run out and buy a car, which in this country is a 100% given, and why bicycles are almost universally considered to be transportation only for children, and recreational toys for a small fraction of adults.

We need to look at bikes as two-wheeled, more-efficient, clean transportation... and eliminate the stigma of requiring effort for locomotion (gasp!). Keep the attitude and you keep the cars that are spawned by old perceptions.

I agree with the benefits, and the fact that people see e-motos as viable non-car transportation. I see half a dozen to a dozen every time I ride my bike. However, they shouldn't be in bike lanes, sidewalks, or trails mixing with bicycles and pedestrians. It's not legal for good reason. Those spaces are protected from higher powered vehicles like Surrons (50+ mph throttle only moto commonly called an e-bike).

When I had my Globe Haul (a US legal e-bike) before returning it I felt the same way. I didn't feel comfortable on crowded mixed-use trails and shortly after stopped riding them. The Haul weighs probably 100+ lbs with basic accessories installed and takes up a good bit of space. With some cargo or a passenger you could hit the 420 lb gross capacity fairly easily.

It's truly great to see that people are choosing alternatives to driving. We just need to have some nuance here. My friends with gas scooters don't ride them in those protected spaces because it would be inappropriate. Even ridden slowly they tend to kick up a ton of dust compared to other trail users.

Would treating them like gas scooters or motorcycles kill the uptake? Maybe we need new guidelines for e-scooters/motos specifically since they do have one major benefit which is zero noise/air pollution.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Edit:
A cyclist in Oregon was ridding along when a reckless driver in a van flipped it, and it rolled, killing the cyclist. So, they restricted bikes.
This arrived while I was having lunch:

Climate Column: The Power of Peer Pressure — Cool Petaluma

Are you old enough to remember when smoking was normal? Can you imagine a future where pulling up to your friend’s house in a gas car is as unacceptable as walking in the door and lighting up a cigarette?

www.coolpetaluma.org

Very sad news. I'm confused about the context though. Is the link supposed to be for the van/bike accident?

 

[PedalUma]

Very sad news. I'm confused about the context though. Is the link supposed to be for the van/bike accident?

That article by Natasha is just very local for carbon neutrality by 2030 in this one town.

'Trenton Burger, 15, was killed last June while riding an e-bike (just a bike) on a sidewalk along Highway 20 in northeast Bend, OR when a van turned right and struck and killed him.' A right hook, it happens all the time with cars. Instead of restricting vans, they retaliated on bikes and then shamelessly named the these restrictions after the victim of the deadly van assault. It is blaming the victim. Nutty drivers are the problem, not bikes. The kid did not threaten or harm anyone. Cars regularly try to speed to out run bikes to make a right. I punched one as it attacked me doing $1200 in damage to the assaultive offender because I wacked a fender seam in a defensive back handed reflex as it attacked. They are made of foil. It felt good. You should try it yourself! Crunch, its like stepping on a used Doller Tree foil turkey pan.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Food for thought. Maybe we need to be better citizens.

 

[Robspace1]

The issue for me is, emotorcycles and emini-motorcycles are NOT ebikes. The thing ridden by the 12 year old that killed the unfortunate woman is NOT, in my opinion, an ebike. The vehicles lined up outside the school in the picture are NOT ebikes. Those things ought to be able to be easily regulated. They should be illegal for anyone too young for a learners' permit to operate in any public space. They should require some sort of registration and licensing at the appropriate age (15), and at that time should be operated only on streets. All of the vehicles by the school should be impounded.

We really need to work to separate ebikes from any type of emotos, especially in the minds of those doing the regulating and banning.

A 12 year old dosen't even need to be riding anything with a motor on the roads. They need to build up muscle by peddling. To ride quads off road in the dirt is ok with an adult but not alone, and never on the streets. Yea, more laws are coming.

 

[CodyDog]

A 12 year old dosen't even need to be riding anything with a motor on the roads. They need to build up muscle by peddling. To ride quads off road in the dirt is ok with an adult but not alone, and never on the streets. Yea, more laws are coming.

There is an overwhelming amount of irresponsible parenting in the world. That trend is on the rise. I recently came across a post about a father requesting advise in regard to which ebike to purchase for his son to address his son's desire for exercise. Later in the thread, the father stated that he ended up choosing a class 3 with a throttle that would do 31 MPH for his son. What a dad!

 

[AvalancheRun]

A 12 year old dosen't even need to be riding anything with a motor on the roads. They need to build up muscle by peddling. To ride quads off road in the dirt is ok with an adult but not alone, and never on the streets. Yea, more laws are coming.

They don’t. But in my town all the kids want surrons and many 12-14 year olds have them. It’s really nuts.

 

[jabberwocky]

Food for thought. Maybe we need to be better citizens.

I don't fully agree with everything he says, but I think the video illustrates the problems we are facing in the fight for wider access, and even just keeping the access we have. A large subset of people purchasing "ebikes" don't actually want an assisted bicycle, they want an unregulated motorcycle that they can get away with riding on paths and trails.

 

[PedalUma]

High school parking lots are packed. An electric Hyundai can go 0-60 in 3.4 seconds. We need more young people to use micro-mobility options away from cars. Safer streets is are a real key. That means slower speeds for cars and less parking with more protected bike and scooter lanes.

 

[Robspace1]

I don't fully agree with everything he says, but I think the video illustrates the problems we are facing in the fight for wider access, and even just keeping the access we have. A large subset of people purchasing "ebikes" don't actually want an assisted bicycle, they want an unregulated motorcycle that they can get away with riding on paths and trails.

And new laws are coming on that. To see kids blasting along on escooters or one wheels that can do 50 mph is nuts. Because parents allow them to have them, the government will be forced to regulate them. Why is it ok for a 12 year old to be on an electric powered scooter or ebike but he needs a license and insurance for a gas scooter? Makes no sense. The speeds and danger are the same for both.

 

[Kayakguy]

"Biscayne Bay
Where the Cuban gentlemen sleep all day
I went searching for the song you used to sing to me"

I knew that name was sticking in my mind. Biscayne was also the base Chevy sedan in the late 60's, but you could have had one fitted with the 409, and later the 427, But let's stay mellow with the good doctor.

My dad had a Chevy Biscayne in the 60s. Later on he said it was a piece of crap. But as far as I can remember, most cars of that era were crap.

 

[Kayakguy]

PedalUma - that's a very pretty staged photo. Very interesting , too, since a pair put to a wagonette isn't supposed to be coachman driven as this photo implies. It's a sporting vehicle that is supposed to be owner driven. The leather top (used for bad weather) behind the driver's seat is a dead giveaway that this vehicle is only driven by the owner, not staff.

The car is very elegant as well. Any idea the make and model and year, especially as the steering wheel is on the right hand side? Had to be prior to 1915 if this is a US photo.

Clearly, the lady is trying to keep the horse from eating her very tasty looking hat.

 

[why?]

CodyDog said:
There is an overwhelming amount of irresponsible parenting in the world. That trend is on the rise. I recently came across a post about a father requesting advise in regard to which ebike to purchase for his son to address his son's desire for exercise. Later in the thread, the father stated that he ended up choosing a class 3 with a throttle that would do 31 MPH for his son. What a dad!

you can bet that little "juvey" will do a lot of pedaling, no pedaling has been promoted for a long time starting in a big way with the lectrics.

Kid possibly 12 going on 13.
?Surely? - "his son's desire for excercise." ... Realistically how much pedaling excercise did dad really expect with a tempting 31mph handy throttle

Evidence of irresponsible parenting ... by knowignly giving into their son's manipulation, even while knowing better. A responsible loving dad could have began by saying ...

"With your desire for pedalling exercise you don't need a motorized ebike; especially one that goes so fast you could seriously hurt yourself. Let's check out a good bike with a watt meter so you can track your pedal power exercise."

 

[chunk]

How about this, to ride a motorized bicycle period, you must have a driver's license and a helmet. Children turned loose on e-bike is asking for trouble. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Taylor57]

Its those chicken s*it mini bike fake ebikes. I must admit, I love my throttle once in awhile if I need an assist at a stop light or just to get going, but I promise you, I would agree to a throttle ban to get the scooter/mini bike idiots under control. My rant is over...