Throttle questions...

[Jaeje]

Was demoing a Surface 604 and an Elby recently and the LBS tech said that the throttle shouldn't be used under heavy load (as in going up hill). Was made to assist on flatter ground. He said it is too hard on the motor and will damage it.

I am new to biking and not in the greatest shape (yet). I was using the throttle while pedaling with pedal assist when I got tired going up a long hill. Is this incorrect. If range/ power supply were not a concern can you not use just throttle if say your knees need a rest?

Thoughts or recommendations appreciated...

 

[pnop]

My thought is that if they are selling something that is only good for light use, it's not worth buying. Of course something isn't likely to last as long with hard use. While I am actually pretty new with actual riding I read quite a bit before getting my own. Seems to me there are many riding their pretty hard and getting many miles out of them.

 

[larry-new]

Your knees do get a rest with pedal assist...if the hill is long, increasing pedal assist would be my first choice, with throttle used for the short nasty bits.

 

[rich c]

RadPower bikes also says in it's owner manual to not uses maximum assist when going up hills. No idea what motors are in a Surface 604 or Elby. A hill and heavy load are quite subjective descriptions. Max watts vs time would define it so much better. Using the throttle and pedal assist at the same time is an odd arrangement. You get a better control by increasing pedal assist levels, or use throttle. Both will not give you more power, the controller limits it no matter how much you ask for.

 

[Jaeje]

Thanks all for your replies. I am a newbie and need to get better with the gears and assist levels no doubt. It was that I could pedal softer(slower?) with the help of throttle at times. Sorry not sure of terminology. A little break really helped the knees on a long hill. Maybe I need to stop for a break but the thought of starting up again on a hill scared the heck out of me.

 

[ebikemom]

I need max assist on some of the steep grades around me, though I pedal as hard as I can! If I drop to 8mph, I’ll get off and walk.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Was demoing a Surface 604 and an Elby recently and the LBS tech said that the throttle shouldn't be used under heavy load (as in going up hill). Was made to assist on flatter ground. He said it is too hard on the motor and will damage it.

Put that way, it's BS.

Every motor has its limitations and strengths. Some are optimized for higher speed, some for low-end torque. If this guy is saying that the motors on the Surface 604 and the Elby are optimized for speed, then OK -- but that doesn't mean you can't use assist on a hill.

It does mean a couple of things. The more you depend on the pedals and the less on the motor, then you reduce any strain on the motor considerably. Or, if you get your speed up before you hit the hill, then you're in "optimized for speed" territory.

The motor doesn't know what the angle of incline is. It is affected by the load. Going up a hill is no different from packing a couple hundred extra pounds onto the bike and riding how you always ride. Either way, you've increased the load.

If you've got a good ebike with a motor that's operating within spec, you don't need to baby it. Don't beat on it, but don't baby it.

Comments like that tech gave you remind me of when I was looking for my first computer. Apple II was king, the IBM PC had not hit the market yet. I went into a shop that sold electronics -- mostly audio -- but had some computers for sale too. The salesman, trying to act like he knew what he was talking about, said "It's got ROM -- and RAM too!" Had no idea what RAM or ROM was, but he'd read it on the box and thought it was a great selling point. "Uh, gee, I couldn't afford that, have you got one that doesn't have RAM?" LOL.

Who doesn't want their ebike to help with the hills, fer cryin' out loud?

 

[AHicks]

Something I noticed on my bikes, is the fact that while peddling in the various peddle assist modes, the throttle (if used while pedaling) acts kind of like an on and off switch. There's very little modulation available. However, if you stop pedaling before using the throttle, the throttle will work normally, providing plenty of modulation.

Point being, if pedaling up a hill, and you attempt to get a boost with the throttle, you get nearly all available power right away. On a long climb, this may produce more of a strain on the system (battery drain and heat build up) than say increasing the assist mode level, and dropping down a gear or 2. Both will get you to the top of the hill, but increasing the pedal assist mode and dropping a gear or 2 will do it more efficiently.

The bike shop employee may have been thinking along these lines, but didn't get the point across very well.

 

[rich c]

Something I noticed on my bikes, is the fact that while peddling in the various peddle assist modes, the throttle (if used while pedaling) acts kind of like an on and off switch. There's very little modulation available. However, if you stop pedaling before using the throttle, the throttle will work normally, providing plenty of modulation.

Point being, if pedaling up a hill, and you attempt to get a boost with the throttle, you get nearly all available power right away. On a long climb, this may produce more of a strain on the system (battery drain and heat build up) than say increasing the assist mode level, and dropping down a gear or 2. Both will get you to the top of the hill, but increasing the pedal assist mode and dropping a gear or 2 will do it more efficiently.

The bike shop employee may have been thinking along these lines, but didn't get the point across very well.

Pedal assist and throttle both work with the controller to send a programmed amount of current to the motor. Use one or both, the controller will not exceed program parameters. Simple pas systems are like an on and off switch, the throttle is a rheostat. If the throttle feels like a switch, you are just up against the parameters. Where some of the issues come up is when the customer finds out how to reprogram the controller. They you get too much heat in the controller. Motors are usually very conservatively rated. Lots of hot rodders pull 800+ Watts from a 350 watt motor.

 

[CodyDog]

Rad Rower bikes suggest that you do not use level assist 5 for hills above 15% grade. With that being said, full throttle on the Rover is the same as using Level assist 5. As Bruce mentioned it is all about load. Full throttle with extreme load over a period of time generates high level of heat in the motor windings which degrades the motor winding thus causing permanent damage.

Now if your using the throttle at an output under 500 watts you should be okay.

 

[AHicks]

Pedal assist and throttle both work with the controller to send a programmed amount of current to the motor. Use one or both, the controller will not exceed program parameters. Simple pas systems are like an on and off switch, the throttle is a rheostat. If the throttle feels like a switch, you are just up against the parameters. Where some of the issues come up is when the customer finds out how to reprogram the controller. They you get too much heat in the controller. Motors are usually very conservatively rated. Lots of hot rodders pull 800+ Watts from a 350 watt motor.

Understood, you can't exceed program parameters (with PAS or throttle). My main point was you may be able to use less of the available power if you are pedaling in a lower gear, and have the time/patience to slow down a bit on the more challenging hills.

PAS systems I'm familiar with have 5 levels, are a far cry from on and off switches. However, the PAS mode (whatever level has been selected) will turn on or off depending on if you are pedaling or not.
Further, in my experience (w/LCD3/KT controller combos, as well as the standard Rad system) if PAS is in use (you are peddling), there's very little "rheostat" effect/modulation available from the hand throttle. If you move it much, it's going to be all in..... Your experience (with different equipment?) may differ.....

Last, and you likely know this, but it may be worth repeating. When it comes to damage caused by long steep hills, even if the motor can handle the load, there are 2 other places that can be damaged when it comes to abuse. The battery, and the controller. A good system is a carefully chosen/balanced combo of motor, controller, and battery.

 

[ebikemom]

Something I noticed on my bikes, is the fact that while peddling in the various peddle assist modes, the throttle (if used while pedaling) acts kind of like an on and off switch. There's very little modulation available.

I think this may depend on the make or type of bike? On our bikes the throttle has the same level of modulating capacity whether used on its own or while pedal assist is active. So it sounds like throttle behavior may differ across brands and or models of bikes?

 

[AHicks]

Sounds like it.
It does seem counter intuitive. I really wish that were not the case. You'll have to trust the fact I've spent some time trying to figure out a way around it using the KT based system.

Maybe others would like to comment?

 

[larry-new]

The long and the steep grade are not the problem, overusing the electric assist is. The time spent drawing maximum wattage has to be kept to a minimum...no designer could allow for that without huge heavy cables hanging all over the bike, and increasing everything else to handle the heat produced by maximum electrical output.

Since the throttle is the shortest route to maximum wattage, it makes sense to use it sparingly: first (starting) and last (nasty bits on hills) without dependence on it as an everywhere solution. If a throttle were so great, bike designers would not have spent enormous time on the various assist levels.

 

[Jaeje]

Put that way, it's BS.

Every motor has its limitations and strengths. Some are optimized for higher speed, some for low-end torque. If this guy is saying that the motors on the Surface 604 and the Elby are optimized for speed, then OK -- but that doesn't mean you can't use assist on a hill.

It does mean a couple of things. The more you depend on the pedals and the less on the motor, then you reduce any strain on the motor considerably. Or, if you get your speed up before you hit the hill, then you're in "optimized for speed" territory.

The motor doesn't know what the angle of incline is. It is affected by the load. Going up a hill is no different from packing a couple hundred extra pounds onto the bike and riding how you always ride. Either way, you've increased the load.

If you've got a good ebike with a motor that's operating within spec, you don't need to baby it. Don't beat on it, but don't baby it.

Comments like that tech gave you remind me of when I was looking for my first computer. Apple II was king, the IBM PC had not hit the market yet. I went into a shop that sold electronics -- mostly audio -- but had some computers for sale too. The salesman, trying to act like he knew what he was talking about, said "It's got ROM -- and RAM too!" Had no idea what RAM or ROM was, but he'd read it on the box and thought it was a great selling point. "Uh, gee, I couldn't afford that, have you got one that doesn't have RAM?" LOL.

Who doesn't want their ebike to help with the hills, fer cryin' out loud?

Thanks. Makes sense. Love tha analogy. Lol

 

[Jaeje]

I need max assist on some of the steep grades around me, though I pedal as hard as I can! If I drop to 8mph, I’ll get off and walk.

Thanks. Yes. And as I improve on being in correct gear and timing, I’m hoping I’m thinking I will better manage without throttle. But for now it’s my comfort level.

 

[Jaeje]

The long and the steep grade are not the problem, overusing the electric assist is. The time spent drawing maximum wattage has to be kept to a minimum...no designer could allow for that without huge heavy cables hanging all over the bike, and increasing everything else to handle the heat produced by maximum electrical output.

Since the throttle is the shortest route to maximum wattage, it makes sense to use it sparingly: first (starting) and last (nasty bits on hills) without dependence on it as an everywhere solution. If a throttle were so great, bike designers would not have spent enormous time on the various assist levels.

Makes sense. Thx

 

[rich c]

I think this may depend on the make or type of bike? On our bikes the throttle has the same level of modulating capacity whether used on its own or while pedal assist is active. So it sounds like throttle behavior may differ across brands and or models of bikes?

On my Sondors, the throttle has the max power setting no matter what PAS setting you are on. On my Fat-Tad recumbent trike, the throttle is limited to the PAS level. So yes it depends on the brand and the controller programs.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

if you are in the maximum level of pedal assist and climbing a steep hill chances are the motor is already at full power and using or not using the throttle won't make much difference.

I'm actually kind of shocked by this thread. Given how inexpensive temperature sensors are it seems reasonable that the controller would know to reduce power to the motor when it is overloaded. There isn't really any excuse for this silliness on a product that costs more than $1000.

 

[larry-new]

There are overload thermal cutoffs, I'm given to understand. Hope they reset, and further hope I never experience it.

Pedal assist assumes assisting the rider's effort, not replacing it.