Help finding a mid-drive, torque ebike with a throttle and natural pedal assist?

[Jeremy McCreary]

Only your e-bike is not designed to fly (hopefully) and the pilot does not pedal his F22...


I think you throttle your e-bike down to be able to ride slowly, too. The reason being, hub-drive motors run at a constant speed depending on the amount of electrons they are fed with but they ignore how the rider is actually pedalling. If you had no throttle and were in a specific PAS level, your e-bike would always try to be running at a constant speed, and it is you to pedal as lightly or as strongly to get into the equilibrium with the motor. I know it as I own a hub-drive motor e-bike without a throttle and with PAS 1..5; this e-bike always gets on the maximum speed per level. (That made that e-bike hopeless to ride with my slow traditional cycling friend as I only could ride with him without any assistance whatsoever).

A mid-drive motor has variable speed controlled by the rider's legs (torque and cadence = input leg power). That's why the throttle is inappropriate on a mid-drive motor and it has nothing to do with any "natural ride feeling".

Give it up, Stefan. My torque-sensing hub-drive delivers power very differently than the way you describe.

You understand very little about this bike, or the way I ride, or the terrain and traffic I ride in. Just as you totally misunderstood its class designation several posts back and attacked anyway. Really?

Just to be clear, I plan to ride and enjoy this bike for the foreseeable future — no matter how inferior or downright evil you think it to be.

 

[mschwett]

Only not many hub-drives have the torque sensor, and the classical PAS sensor only reports "the e-bike is being pedalled or not".

Could you confirm the hub-drive motor and controller you are talking about make use of all these sensors:

1. Torque sensor
2. E-bike speed sensor
3. Motor speed sensor
4. Pedalling cadence sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. (Optionally) Inclination sensor?

Because I think they do not but the sensors 1-5 and controller making use of all these parameters are present in any mid-motor, and Giant has added the sensor #6.

even without a torque sensor, a hub drive can use the pedal cadence and bicycle speed (plus the level/mode setting) to determine power. it doesn’t have to be black or white. of course more power could be supplied if the rider was pedaling at 100rpm and the bike going 40kph vs 60rpm and 20kph.

i have a hub drive commuter, it feels pretty natural except 1) it cuts off pretty abruptly at 32kph, 2) you can ghost pedal in the right circumstances and 3) there’s a button which simply maxes out the motor power as long as you’re pedaling. not a throttle - you have to be pedaling - but an override that tosses out all the other inputs. not all that different from a rider who is outputting more than 150w of leg power switching to turbo on an SL e-bike. motor draw is pegged at 300w regardless of speed and gear, assuming a reasonable cadence.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i have a hub drive commuter

Me too. It is hard to call a ride at 30 km/h when you need to match your pedalling to the motor speed anything "natural". At any lower speed, you are ghost pedalling. That e-bike can be derestricted on demand (Chinese-ware). If you do so, the e-bike would not ride any faster than 32 km/h because the maximum hub-motor speed has been achieved. Yes, you could ride it up to 35 km/h if you were propelled by a strong tailwind.

 

[scrambler]

Only not many hub-drives have the torque sensor, and the classical PAS sensor only reports "the e-bike is being pedalled or not".

Could you confirm the hub-drive motor and controller you are talking about make use of all these sensors:

1. Torque sensor
2. E-bike speed sensor
3. Motor speed sensor
4. Pedalling cadence sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. (Optionally) Inclination sensor?

Because I think they do not but the sensors 1-5 and controller making use of all these parameters are present in any mid-motor, and Giant has added the sensor #6.

If you are genuinely interested, I am sure you can look them up.

As one example, Stromer bikes come to mind, but there are many others.

Hub drives were the first to come out a long time ago. At that time Controllers were primitives and PAS were crude or inexistant.
But they have evolved with the rest of the industry, their controllers are as sophisticated as any others, and they are taking advantage of the same sensor technology. SOme integrate the torque sensing in the motor, other use external torque and cadence sensors on the Bottom bracket or the rear triangle.
Are there Hub drive bike that still have crude PAS sure, but that does not make Hub drives as a Technolgy any less capable of natural feeling pedal assist.

The main drawback of hub drives (with no gearing) over Mid drives is the fact that they are not as efficient at low speed.
Electric motors are most efficient at high rpm. A hub direct drive with no gearing will only rotate as fast as the wheel, and that can cause them to overheat in slow ascent that require high torque at very low rpm.

 

[Nite-Rider]

Hello tricycle! Not sure if you've made your purchase yet but it seems that the forums somehow manage to veer off topic. You can most certainly have mid-drive, throttle, pedal assist and get the natural feeling as you wish.
Answering to your question that I too was searching for a couple of years, it comes down to:
a) Your budget, can you go with $4,000? Or has to be much less, maybe $2,000 or less? There are options for all budgets but you'll have to sacrifice some components on the lower end.
b) Do you need shifting ability?

I love the Priority Current, feel it's a fabulous e-Bike, great quality, has Gates carbon belt drive and if you purchase at Costconext.com, it's backed by Costco with a steep discount. However, it does not have and cannot get the throttle installed. I confirmed this with Priority support team as well. Bummer, no throttle.

IMO, I strongly suggest you check out Evelo! They have great products backed by super warranties and have been around one of the longest e-Bikes companies in the USA.
My choice was the EVELO Atlas because it has my 3 most important features:
1. Throttle, although it is as and add-on, took 20 min to install
2. Gates carbon belt drive
3. Enviolo IGH Internal Geared Hub

Evelo had other models with throttle, suspension, hardtail, automatic shifting, etc. Their models also fit many budgets. Here's a great looking step-through Galaxy Lux, Best of luck, let us know what final choice is.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Hello tricycle! Not sure if you've made your purchase yet but it seems that the forums somehow manage to veer off topic. You can most certainly have mid-drive, throttle, pedal assist and get the natural feeling as you wish.
Answering to your question that I too was searching for a couple of years, it comes down to:
a) Your budget, can you go with $4,000? Or has to be much less, maybe $2,000 or less? There are options for all budgets but you'll have to sacrifice some components on the lower end.
b) Do you need shifting ability?

I love the Priority Current, feel it's a fabulous e-Bike, great quality, has Gates carbon belt drive and if you purchase at Costconext.com, it's backed by Costco with a steep discount. However, it does not have and cannot get the throttle installed. I confirmed this with Priority support team as well. Bummer, no throttle.

IMO, I strongly suggest you check out Evelo! They have great products backed by super warranties and have been around one of the longest e-Bikes companies in the USA.
My choice was the EVELO Atlas because it has my 3 most important features:
1. Throttle, although it is as and add-on, took 20 min to install
2. Gates carbon belt drive
3. Enviolo IGH Internal Geared Hub

Evelo had other models with throttle, suspension, hardtail, automatic shifting, etc. Their models also fit many budgets. Here's a great looking step-through Galaxy Lux, Best of luck, let us know what final choice is.

I love my Priority Current and Evelo Omega, and agree with you on all points except the throttle. I never missed it on the Current with its natural and smooth acceleration. The Omega has a mild cadence sensor pedal delay or "jolt" which can probably be mitigated with the throttle, but it has never bothered me enough to try it. I was actually contemplating disconnecting the throttle altogether. (I have no interest in starting another useless throttle debate though. To each his/her own).

 

[PedalUma]

@Doggyman1202,
What has ended much of the 'throttle debate' is that it has been agreed that those who have never had a throttle bike do not have qualified opinions on the matter. I hit ignore on one, and that is wonderful. It just took two-seconds. Easy. I highly recommend it for everyone for a free two-day trial.

 

[Nite-Rider]

@Doggyman1202,
What has ended much of the 'throttle debate' is that it has been agreed that those who have never had a throttle bike do not have qualified opinions on the matter. I hit ignore on one, and that is wonderful. It just took two-seconds. Easy. I highly recommend it for everyone for a free two-day trial.

Well thank you so much for that! I too followed your lead and BAM! ignore just did the trick. It would be great if folks could stay on topic, right?

 

[PedalUma]

It is better than this. Just try it.

 

[Doggyman1202]

So is this:

 

[PedalUma]

When you are chewing on your burger at that place you can see where the free-range grass-fed cattle that you are eating roam. It is American food but oh, so fresh and local. That big horizontal blue thing is the Pacific. I will be making a mid-drive torque sensor mountain bike this weekend. It arrived from Hollywood today. It is a spanking new Marin Team 1 twelve-speed. It will prowl the Hollywood nights with a passion that chills, in those high rolling hills.

 

[tgianco]

Besides, is it not the fact only the Class 2 e-bikes may have a throttle in the Unites States? And the motor power shall be limited to 750 W?
Many of you people just ignore the law because nobody can enforce the law.

I'm so glad to have met so many fine people here who can do without the throttle despite their age.
My 75 yo friend has just made 4,000 km this year, unpowered. Yet, the throttle is a must for so many North Americans... No wonder. A 90 lb fat tire monster requires the throttle.

I CAN do without the throttle (I'm 53 & regularly do 25-35 mile rides that incorporate pave bike trails along w/ some single-track/ technical), but, because I have wiped out a few times, whether on single track or hitting a patch of loose gravel on the road where the bike slid out, and not being able to physically pedal due to injuries incurred, it's almost imperative to me to have a throttle-only option if need be. Until I'm ready to not take any chances (then again, we ALL take chances because we can't be prepared for every contingency), I'd like that throttle option as a just in case, which i have needed a couple of times.

 

[tgianco]

Actually, I agree with everything you are saying. I rented a cadence sensor bike over the winter, and could not balance quickly enough without a quick throttle push, so I get it. I also don't think there's a meaningful safety difference between pedaling 19 miles and hour or throttling at that speed (inasmuch as there is little effort benefit).

"certain other self-appointed purists think that ebikes aren't proper cycling." That's why I bristle at the suggestion that e-bikes aren't exercise. Following that line of reasoning, neither are exercise bikes with pedal resistance adjusters.

I want/ need the throttle option for emergency use only. If I wipe out & can't pedal (happened a couple of times due to aggressive riding), it's nice to be able to use that throttle to get help or get home. It's my "break glass in case of fire" option.

 

[tgianco]

I love my Priority Current and Evelo Omega, and agree with you on all points except the throttle. I never missed it on the Current with its natural and smooth acceleration. The Omega has a mild cadence sensor pedal delay or "jolt" which can probably be mitigated with the throttle, but it has never bothered me enough to try it. I was actually contemplating disconnecting the throttle altogether. (I have no interest in starting another useless throttle debate though. To each his/her own).

I like both of those A LOT, but the complete lack of suspension looks to be a deal-killer for me.

 

[teskow]

I feel like you need to own a throttle equipped bike to really understand the benefits.
Having a well calibrated throttle combined with a well tuned torque sensor is a very useful combination. Im thinking of the last few times i touched my throttle and none of them had anything to do with my inability to pedal, ill tap it when climbing on dirt and rock at low speed, it really comes in handy when im shifting my weight and want to keep the pedals fixed for a second, also all of my bikes have low clearance so i will end up hitting the throttle when riding over sticks or rocks that could cause pedal strikes, with the throttle i can keep the pedals at 3&9 until im over the obstacle, not to mention the times i needed to get out of the danger zone when commuting.
A throttle can very handy as long as it is tuned properly, i stress properly tuned.
Maybe they are not something you use every ride but its nice to have when you need it.

"I feel like you need to own a throttle equipped bike to really understand the benefits."
I have had two bikes with throttles. The bike I now have has a Brose motor so no throttle. Do I miss the throttle, YES, there are times I do.
You may not use it much but it is sort of like a car without a spare tire. You may never use it much but certainly nice to have when needed. Nuf said.

 

[tgianco]

Back to the OP's question, I found one that might meet his/ her requirements. The Himiway A5 Rambler Premium ($2,199) has a Bafang M600 mid-drive (500 watts with 120nm torque, 48v/15ah battery, torque sensor, hydraulic brakes, Shimano 9-speed gear shift and thumb throttle. They have a new one, too, the A7 Pro, which was at CES in January, and sounds killer (mid-drive again w/ a lot of the same features, but bigger battery and FULL suspension.

 

[PedalUma]

Himiway A5 Rambler Premium

I have dealt with those bikes. They are so heavy! The lion sleeps tonight.
We-e-e-e we don't undulate
We-e-e-e we don't undulate
A Himiway, a Himiway, a Himiway
a Himiway, a Himiway, a Himiway
a Himiway a Himiway a Himiway

 

[Stefan Mikes]

steak

Tartar Steak. Raw meat and raw egg
Two glasses of vodka are mandarory for disinfection.

 

[tgianco]

I have dealt with those bikes. They are so heavy! The lion sleeps tonight.
We-e-e-e we don't undulate
We-e-e-e we don't undulate
A Himiway, a Himiway, a Himiway
a Himiway, a Himiway, a Himiway
a Himiway a Himiway a Himiway

Agreed, they are heavy, but I've beat the hell out of my original Cruiser and it keeps on tickin'. Wiped out on a single-track trail on it last Friday. My wife did not find me being all bloody amusing. I did.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

My wife did not find me being all bloody amusing.

Probably a good thing.