Help finding a mid-drive, torque ebike with a throttle and natural pedal assist?

[Jeremy McCreary]

Only your e-bike is not designed to fly (hopefully) and the pilot does not pedal his F22...


I think you throttle your e-bike down to be able to ride slowly, too. The reason being, hub-drive motors run at a constant speed depending on the amount of electrons they are fed with but they ignore how the rider is actually pedalling. If you had no throttle and were in a specific PAS level, your e-bike would always try to be running at a constant speed, and it is you to pedal as lightly or as strongly to get into the equilibrium with the motor. I know it as I own a hub-drive motor e-bike without a throttle and with PAS 1..5; this e-bike always gets on the maximum speed per level. (That made that e-bike hopeless to ride with my slow traditional cycling friend as I only could ride with him without any assistance whatsoever).

A mid-drive motor has variable speed controlled by the rider's legs (torque and cadence = input leg power). That's why the throttle is inappropriate on a mid-drive motor and it has nothing to do with any "natural ride feeling".

Give it up, Stefan. My torque-sensing hub-drive delivers power very differently than the way you describe.

You understand very little about this bike, or the way I ride, or the terrain and traffic I ride in. Just as you totally misunderstood its class designation several posts back and attacked anyway. Really?

Just to be clear, I plan to ride and enjoy this bike for the foreseeable future — no matter how inferior or downright evil you think it to be.

 

[mschwett]

Only not many hub-drives have the torque sensor, and the classical PAS sensor only reports "the e-bike is being pedalled or not".

Could you confirm the hub-drive motor and controller you are talking about make use of all these sensors:

1. Torque sensor
2. E-bike speed sensor
3. Motor speed sensor
4. Pedalling cadence sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. (Optionally) Inclination sensor?

Because I think they do not but the sensors 1-5 and controller making use of all these parameters are present in any mid-motor, and Giant has added the sensor #6.

even without a torque sensor, a hub drive can use the pedal cadence and bicycle speed (plus the level/mode setting) to determine power. it doesn’t have to be black or white. of course more power could be supplied if the rider was pedaling at 100rpm and the bike going 40kph vs 60rpm and 20kph.

i have a hub drive commuter, it feels pretty natural except 1) it cuts off pretty abruptly at 32kph, 2) you can ghost pedal in the right circumstances and 3) there’s a button which simply maxes out the motor power as long as you’re pedaling. not a throttle - you have to be pedaling - but an override that tosses out all the other inputs. not all that different from a rider who is outputting more than 150w of leg power switching to turbo on an SL e-bike. motor draw is pegged at 300w regardless of speed and gear, assuming a reasonable cadence.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i have a hub drive commuter

Me too. It is hard to call a ride at 30 km/h when you need to match your pedalling to the motor speed anything "natural". At any lower speed, you are ghost pedalling. That e-bike can be derestricted on demand (Chinese-ware). If you do so, the e-bike would not ride any faster than 32 km/h because the maximum hub-motor speed has been achieved. Yes, you could ride it up to 35 km/h if you were propelled by a strong tailwind.

 

[scrambler]

Only not many hub-drives have the torque sensor, and the classical PAS sensor only reports "the e-bike is being pedalled or not".

Could you confirm the hub-drive motor and controller you are talking about make use of all these sensors:

1. Torque sensor
2. E-bike speed sensor
3. Motor speed sensor
4. Pedalling cadence sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. (Optionally) Inclination sensor?

Because I think they do not but the sensors 1-5 and controller making use of all these parameters are present in any mid-motor, and Giant has added the sensor #6.

If you are genuinely interested, I am sure you can look them up.

As one example, Stromer bikes come to mind, but there are many others.

Hub drives were the first to come out a long time ago. At that time Controllers were primitives and PAS were crude or inexistant.
But they have evolved with the rest of the industry, their controllers are as sophisticated as any others, and they are taking advantage of the same sensor technology. SOme integrate the torque sensing in the motor, other use external torque and cadence sensors on the Bottom bracket or the rear triangle.
Are there Hub drive bike that still have crude PAS sure, but that does not make Hub drives as a Technolgy any less capable of natural feeling pedal assist.

The main drawback of hub drives (with no gearing) over Mid drives is the fact that they are not as efficient at low speed.
Electric motors are most efficient at high rpm. A hub direct drive with no gearing will only rotate as fast as the wheel, and that can cause them to overheat in slow ascent that require high torque at very low rpm.

 

[Nite-Rider]

Hello tricycle! Not sure if you've made your purchase yet but it seems that the forums somehow manage to veer off topic. You can most certainly have mid-drive, throttle, pedal assist and get the natural feeling as you wish.
Answering to your question that I too was searching for a couple of years, it comes down to:
a) Your budget, can you go with $4,000? Or has to be much less, maybe $2,000 or less? There are options for all budgets but you'll have to sacrifice some components on the lower end.
b) Do you need shifting ability?

I love the Priority Current, feel it's a fabulous e-Bike, great quality, has Gates carbon belt drive and if you purchase at Costconext.com, it's backed by Costco with a steep discount. However, it does not have and cannot get the throttle installed. I confirmed this with Priority support team as well. Bummer, no throttle.

IMO, I strongly suggest you check out Evelo! They have great products backed by super warranties and have been around one of the longest e-Bikes companies in the USA.
My choice was the EVELO Atlas because it has my 3 most important features:
1. Throttle, although it is as and add-on, took 20 min to install
2. Gates carbon belt drive
3. Enviolo IGH Internal Geared Hub

Evelo had other models with throttle, suspension, hardtail, automatic shifting, etc. Their models also fit many budgets. Here's a great looking step-through Galaxy Lux, Best of luck, let us know what final choice is.

 

[Doggyman1202]

Hello tricycle! Not sure if you've made your purchase yet but it seems that the forums somehow manage to veer off topic. You can most certainly have mid-drive, throttle, pedal assist and get the natural feeling as you wish.
Answering to your question that I too was searching for a couple of years, it comes down to:
a) Your budget, can you go with $4,000? Or has to be much less, maybe $2,000 or less? There are options for all budgets but you'll have to sacrifice some components on the lower end.
b) Do you need shifting ability?

I love the Priority Current, feel it's a fabulous e-Bike, great quality, has Gates carbon belt drive and if you purchase at Costconext.com, it's backed by Costco with a steep discount. However, it does not have and cannot get the throttle installed. I confirmed this with Priority support team as well. Bummer, no throttle.

IMO, I strongly suggest you check out Evelo! They have great products backed by super warranties and have been around one of the longest e-Bikes companies in the USA.
My choice was the EVELO Atlas because it has my 3 most important features:
1. Throttle, although it is as and add-on, took 20 min to install
2. Gates carbon belt drive
3. Enviolo IGH Internal Geared Hub

Evelo had other models with throttle, suspension, hardtail, automatic shifting, etc. Their models also fit many budgets. Here's a great looking step-through Galaxy Lux, Best of luck, let us know what final choice is.

I love my Priority Current and Evelo Omega, and agree with you on all points except the throttle. I never missed it on the Current with its natural and smooth acceleration. The Omega has a mild cadence sensor pedal delay or "jolt" which can probably be mitigated with the throttle, but it has never bothered me enough to try it. I was actually contemplating disconnecting the throttle altogether. (I have no interest in starting another useless throttle debate though. To each his/her own).

 

[PedalUma]

@Doggyman1202,
What has ended much of the 'throttle debate' is that it has been agreed that those who have never had a throttle bike do not have qualified opinions on the matter. I hit ignore on one, and that is wonderful. It just took two-seconds. Easy. I highly recommend it for everyone for a free two-day trial.

 

[Nite-Rider]

@Doggyman1202,
What has ended much of the 'throttle debate' is that it has been agreed that those who have never had a throttle bike do not have qualified opinions on the matter. I hit ignore on one, and that is wonderful. It just took two-seconds. Easy. I highly recommend it for everyone for a free two-day trial.

Well thank you so much for that! I too followed your lead and BAM! ignore just did the trick. It would be great if folks could stay on topic, right?

 

[PedalUma]

It is better than this. Just try it.

 

[Doggyman1202]

So is this:

 

[PedalUma]

When you are chewing on your burger at that place you can see where the free-range grass-fed cattle that you are eating roam. It is American food but oh, so fresh and local. That big horizontal blue thing is the Pacific. I will be making a mid-drive torque sensor mountain bike this weekend. It arrived from Hollywood today. It is a spanking new Marin Team 1 twelve-speed. It will prowl the Hollywood nights with a passion that chills, in those high rolling hills.