Test ride on a Bikonit MD1000 (Mid-Drive) and HD 750 (Hub-Drive)
- Thread starter RMK!
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RMK!
Well-Known Member
And that's different from virtually all US Ebike sellers how?
Please don't respond, it was a rhetorical question.
After seeing and feeling the quality along with use of high quality name brand components where it is made is not a concern. These are top quality bikes that are pushing performance across all manufactures. This is an excellent option for those who the function fits (hunting bike for me) and who do not want to pay $8000 for European name recognition. The MD1000 really does ROCK...….
byunbee
Well-Known Member
Besides the IGH issue, my primary point is that you can buy the bike from the same manufacture directly on Alibaba for $2300 + shipping, where as this guy is selling the same bike for $5499 on sale for $4999 to unsuspecting new comers. He adds zero value to the bike and is pocketing $2000-$2500. I call that a rip off more than anything.
Go check out the link if you want proof.
Go check out the link if you want proof.
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TomD
Well-Known Member
Bolton marking these bikes up by a grand or two is nothing new. They do the same thing with the Frey AM 1000. I guess you have to decide whether having support from a US company is worth the extra cost. In the case of Frey I'm not sure that's worth it given they are fairly reputable. Might be a different story with the MD1000.
The MD750 actually looks like a fairly decent bike for the money If you want a rear hub drive. If I wanted a relatively inexpensive mid drive I would pre-order one of the Sondors Ultras over the MD1000.
The MD750 actually looks like a fairly decent bike for the money If you want a rear hub drive. If I wanted a relatively inexpensive mid drive I would pre-order one of the Sondors Ultras over the MD1000.
You need to factor in shipping, which is definitely not cheap. Any of the Alibaba suppliers charge $600 minimum for shipping. Now, the price of the bike IS lower but unless you can negotiate a way to choose your own shipper that brings the price up to $1900 for the HD750 and $2900 for the MD1000 AND if there is damage in shipping or a part is defective, you're return/replacement options are likely quite limited.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
I find these discussions about "American" ebike companies interesting. Virtually all ebikes are made elsewhere just like many products of this ilk. Most ebike companies are essentially branding and marketing groups. The best of them may supply sales and support but the bikes and all the parts are imported. Most of them come from factories in China and the similarities between brands isn't a coincidence.
So when I read about one company doing stress testing on a product component and then look up that company and D&B lists them as 1 location with 2 employees, it all becomes a joke. Essentially it's 2 guys in a wearhouse who may or may not even have an engineering background playing with motors and gear assemblies. That "stress test" is quoted here as very compelling data from an established ebike company ...really? Here is the Founder of Watt Wagons who is a self described "finance guy" describing his background and how this 2 this person company was started.
I'm happy to see Watt Wagons doing some interesting things with ebikes and hope they succeed but they are a marketing group who is a pure start up with very little if any internally generated innovation (save perhaps the leather saddle that conforms to your anatomy over time ;-).
You think an old established engineering manufacturing company like Sturmey Archer does't test their products and provide specifications to the companies who use these components? Again, a rhetorical question ...
So when I read about one company doing stress testing on a product component and then look up that company and D&B lists them as 1 location with 2 employees, it all becomes a joke. Essentially it's 2 guys in a wearhouse who may or may not even have an engineering background playing with motors and gear assemblies. That "stress test" is quoted here as very compelling data from an established ebike company ...really? Here is the Founder of Watt Wagons who is a self described "finance guy" describing his background and how this 2 this person company was started.
I'm happy to see Watt Wagons doing some interesting things with ebikes and hope they succeed but they are a marketing group who is a pure start up with very little if any internally generated innovation (save perhaps the leather saddle that conforms to your anatomy over time ;-).
You think an old established engineering manufacturing company like Sturmey Archer does't test their products and provide specifications to the companies who use these components? Again, a rhetorical question ...
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It's a bit weird saying how bad a bike is that actually exists while saying one that doesn't exist yet is better.
Don't watt wagon make 3kw bikes? Not surprised they broke a IGH. Isn't 'their' special controller just some else's product rebadged?
TomD
Well-Known Member
They do offer a 3000w peak (2300w nominal) upgrade for the Ultra. They broke the sturmey archer on their stock bafang M600 prototype (500w nominal motor). Excess is also using innotrace's controller. I believe Watt Wagons is partnering with both innotrace and Exess to develop the controller and take it to another level including app development among other things. But that's not really related to the stock M600 motor they were testing that broke the Sturmey Archer. The point is they actually stress tested the hub, and when it broke they decided not offer it. That's what reputable companies do.
The bike I was saying looked fairly decent is the rear hub version of the warthog. I guess it's actually called the HD750, not the MD750.
The bike I was saying looked fairly decent is the rear hub version of the warthog. I guess it's actually called the HD750, not the MD750.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Of course. I own a few mid drives, including a 250W nominal euro spec, 500W nominal M600, and 1000W nominal Ultra. The Ultra is a beast and suspect I'll be replacing the chain and cassette sooner than on my lower powered mid drives.
So, would you pair the Ultra with Sturmey Archer IGH? Or would you say there are better options if investing $4500 in an ebike?
So, would you pair the Ultra with Sturmey Archer IGH? Or would you say there are better options if investing $4500 in an ebike?
You'll be changing chains and cassettes more often than you'll be changing an SA hub. I don't see the problem. It's not an expensive hub. You seem to accept a non bullet proof drive line if it's chain and cassette, but an IGH is supposed to last forever? Even if it's cheap.
And no, for something with that sized battery and a belt drive there's not much else to 'invedt' in.
And no, for something with that sized battery and a belt drive there's not much else to 'invedt' in.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Well, that's true, you could replace the hub. I think most people opting for IGH and belt do so for lower maintenance and fewer headaches. If I was investing $4500 I'd just do it right and pony up for Roholoff or Kindernay both of which are rated for the torque of the Ultra (with limitations), but I guess you could cheap out and throw a $125 IGH on a $4500 bike and cross your fingers.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
tomdav, your researching skills need some work. First, there is in fact an MD750 that uses the Sturmey-Archer IGH as well as a hub drive version (HD750) with chain/cassette. Second, an even casual read of this short thread would provide price information that nearly halves your quoted price. Third, Bikonit is not the manufacturer, they are a brander of an interesting Chinese developed ebike. Finally, Bolton has been upfront about his not having anything to do with the development of the ebikes he calls, the Warthog. He is simply importing and will support his customers who purchase from him. The value add aspect of that is either significant or not depending upon your own perspective. Calling out someone for wanting to buy a rebranded product is absurd in this US ebike market.
Your vociferous defense of the Watt Wagon brand does not consider that they are a re-brander themselves. They claim to source their frames from a US company so Made in the USA is one of their marketing ploys more than a accurate description of watt they are. The World Record Holder nonsense was nothing but a marketing stunt.
You seem to be on a first name basis with the "founder" of Watt Wagons and quite the fan. To call out Bolton or even Bikonit as if they are trying to pull one over on people is the height of hypocrisy considering your cozy relationship with Watt Wagon. It makes your presence and comments here seem very Troll like. I'm not sure who makes the MD1000 but I have spoken to my source directly and have had good candid conversations about the MD1000 and other models.
Your vociferous defense of the Watt Wagon brand does not consider that they are a re-brander themselves. They claim to source their frames from a US company so Made in the USA is one of their marketing ploys more than a accurate description of watt they are. The World Record Holder nonsense was nothing but a marketing stunt.
You seem to be on a first name basis with the "founder" of Watt Wagons and quite the fan. To call out Bolton or even Bikonit as if they are trying to pull one over on people is the height of hypocrisy considering your cozy relationship with Watt Wagon. It makes your presence and comments here seem very Troll like. I'm not sure who makes the MD1000 but I have spoken to my source directly and have had good candid conversations about the MD1000 and other models.
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I am going with the MD1000 with chain and cassette. It will be similar to the Bakcou Mule but with the big Bikonit frame. I am anticipating the maximum stress to occur when doing steep hill climbs while hauling near 300lbs total rider + gear. On the test drive, I liked how the HD750 shifted under load and it stalled on the steepest pedal assist climb and did not come close to breaking loose the rear wheel from a traction stand point. As to failing the chain and cassette it seemed strong and did not hint at being over stressed. I assume it will be wear + max stress that will yield the chain so if I ever do get high miles on it I anticipate regular maintenance and keeping an eye on the chain for wear. Hoping this will be a durable set up for the maybe 500 miles a year anticipated. Since the Bakcou Mule has proven capable and thoroughly tested there is some confidence that the Sram x-5 9 speed will do the job.
TomD
Well-Known Member
As far as fanboy, well, that tends to be a term to describe people who will defend a brand simply because they have invested in or own a product of the brand. Definitely not me. For example, I was lukewarm on the Watt Wagons M600 offering. I was concerned about the motor noise and raised similar concerns about the IGH (dumb luck that I had researched, you know, I have poor research skills) before they decided to test it and subsequently broke it.
I would be very interested to hear if Bolton has stress tested the MD1000. They don't seem to participate here like Watt Wagons and a few other companies. I only know Pushkar via this forum, and was very impressed like many others seeing how he does business. Based on that I invested in the superbike and also just ordered the new controller for my Frey CC. Not just me, seems a lot of folks here come to similar conclusions.
The MD1000 is made by Leili Bike. I actually saw it on Alibaba 6 months ago. I was joking with Puskar that he was going to use that ugly frame for the Superbike. Lucky I guess, I hear my research skills are pretty bad.
I would be very interested to hear if Bolton has stress tested the MD1000. They don't seem to participate here like Watt Wagons and a few other companies. I only know Pushkar via this forum, and was very impressed like many others seeing how he does business. Based on that I invested in the superbike and also just ordered the new controller for my Frey CC. Not just me, seems a lot of folks here come to similar conclusions.
The MD1000 is made by Leili Bike. I actually saw it on Alibaba 6 months ago. I was joking with Puskar that he was going to use that ugly frame for the Superbike. Lucky I guess, I hear my research skills are pretty bad.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
You "invested in the superbike" did you? That sounds like ownership to me. Many forum posts and owning several ebikes does not an expert make. If that were true, I'd be at least an expert in training which I clearly am not.
Please take your deep knowledge and considerable expertise elsewhere where it will be properly acknowledged and appreciated.
Please take your deep knowledge and considerable expertise elsewhere where it will be properly acknowledged and appreciated.
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