Hi Tom, Would you consider a Gates belt drive with the Ultra??
Test ride on a Bikonit MD1000 (Mid-Drive) and HD 750 (Hub-Drive)
- Thread starter RMK!
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RMK!
Well-Known Member
1. The MD1000 has a throttle , you don't have to pedal. The Belt is far more durable (reliable) than a chain drive.
2. See #1
3. You might be correct but having used both, I much prefer the trigger throttle. If the terrain it that steep, the extra torque of the MD1000 is the ticket.
4, The controller can be set to produce the desired level of output. See Bolton Ebikes for appropriate stickers.
Who is BM? If you are referring to Bolton, it's a small business and Kyle is the person you want to talk to so whatever that means ... I am fortunate as I live nearby but accessibility is definitely a factor when considering buying from a B&M shop.
IMO, you are a perfect candidate for the MD1000. The Sturmey Archer 5 speed with Gates Belt will be more durable/reliable and the same might be said for the Mid Drive motor.
Thanks, it sounds like you have some experience with the Sturmey Archer 5 speed. A great thing about these bikes are the use of off the shelf components so a person can do many repairs themselves.
Durability has not been an issue in the past with my standard mountain bike but these ebikes look so fun I can see racking up many miles exploring, going longer distances and using it for getting around town.
I am just south of Redding in Anderson so plenty of trails and wide open spaces to ride.
Did you notice if it had an extra low gear and did it have the 2.5MPH walk along feature? Did not see that in Kyle's (Bolton) videos. The stated 500 lb towing capacity is very impressive.
Did the seat go high enough when you rode it? My current mountain bike seat is at 44" and the max seat height stated for the MD1000 is 39". If an issue, putting in a longer stem would be easy.
So glad to find this forum and thanks for all of the input. Next is to crack the ordering puzzle to find the right supplier/manufacturer since there a number to pick from.
Durability has not been an issue in the past with my standard mountain bike but these ebikes look so fun I can see racking up many miles exploring, going longer distances and using it for getting around town.
I am just south of Redding in Anderson so plenty of trails and wide open spaces to ride.
Did you notice if it had an extra low gear and did it have the 2.5MPH walk along feature? Did not see that in Kyle's (Bolton) videos. The stated 500 lb towing capacity is very impressive.
Did the seat go high enough when you rode it? My current mountain bike seat is at 44" and the max seat height stated for the MD1000 is 39". If an issue, putting in a longer stem would be easy.
So glad to find this forum and thanks for all of the input. Next is to crack the ordering puzzle to find the right supplier/manufacturer since there a number to pick from.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
Your in ideal location for this type of ebike.
Unfortunately, Kyle was crazy busy and the MD1000 shifter needed adjustment so I didn't do much shifting on my test ride. I think the 5 speed will be fine for my use. I currently have an 8 speed fat tire folder (1400+ plus miles in 4 months) and really don't need that many gears. As long as low and high gear give me what I need, the 3 in the middle will be plenty. I believe it does have a walk feature but didn't test that.
As for the seat height, I'm 6'5" with a 37 inseam so i'm used to not fitting on things. I think the 39" is seat top to pedal. It is a big and heavy machine and I was very comfortable with the standard seat/post. Two hours in the saddle might tell a different story and my fix would be a thudbuster which would allow another couple of inches is seat height plus add some relief for my cracker ass... ;-)
Unfortunately, Kyle was crazy busy and the MD1000 shifter needed adjustment so I didn't do much shifting on my test ride. I think the 5 speed will be fine for my use. I currently have an 8 speed fat tire folder (1400+ plus miles in 4 months) and really don't need that many gears. As long as low and high gear give me what I need, the 3 in the middle will be plenty. I believe it does have a walk feature but didn't test that.
As for the seat height, I'm 6'5" with a 37 inseam so i'm used to not fitting on things. I think the 39" is seat top to pedal. It is a big and heavy machine and I was very comfortable with the standard seat/post. Two hours in the saddle might tell a different story and my fix would be a thudbuster which would allow another couple of inches is seat height plus add some relief for my cracker ass... ;-)
TomD
Well-Known Member
Yes, but not with the Sturmey Archer IGH. Watt Wagons broke this IGH on their first stress test with M600 motor which has half the power of the Ultra. Luna will only offer this IGH with standard M600 controller on their BABE.
~50 lbs, full featured Watt Wagons City Commuter! Class 3 with throttle, $3199, optional electronic shifting, shipping July !
I guess that's my point. Some people ride irresponsibly and they would be dangerous to others. No different than someone driving a high end sports car in an irresponsible manner.
electricbikereview.com
TomD
Well-Known Member
I don't think it matters whether it has a shift sensor. Read this article which should eliminate any doubt about how fast you should run from the MD1000.
Mid Drive Kits, Dump the Derailleur and get an IGH?
The popular Bafang BBS02 and BBSHD mid drives are introducing an entirely new generation to electric bikes. Many of these new ebikers are asking about the option of using an Internally Geared Hub (…
www.electricbike.com
The author doesn't talk about the SA 5 speed. He talks about the 3 speed. Anyway, I guess I will stay away from the IGH with the Ultra.I don't think it matters whether it has a shift sensor. Read this article which should eliminate any doubt about how fast you should run from the MD1000.
Mid Drive Kits, Dump the Derailleur and get an IGH?
The popular Bafang BBS02 and BBSHD mid drives are introducing an entirely new generation to electric bikes. Many of these new ebikers are asking about the option of using an Internally Geared Hub (…www.electricbike.com
Thanks for the info...… a lot to consider. Looks like the Warthog HD750 may be the durable option for heavy weight on steep terrain assuming limited power up steep terrain. The question then becomes how much torque is needed to get up steep off road hills. HD750 torque is 80NM where as the MD1000 is 160NM. It also brings back consideration of two 350W or 500W hub motors but I have not found a tall bike with two hub motors......…...… analysis paralysis…...
RMK!
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the opinions re the Sturmey Archer sealed drive. Having ridden this ebike I am willing to take the risk. I will be doing relatively easy going cruising and combined with minimal shifting on mostly flat stuff, I may mitigate much of the concerns expressed in the article. If I have to replace the sealed shifter every few years so be it ... The Gates belt will probably outlast the bike and being as I hate chains and finicky derailleurs, I'm ready for this experiment ... ;-)
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I don't see much relevance in that article. It was written in 2016. Before the SA rx-rk5 was released. It doesn't even take gear sensing into account. The article says the 3 speed sa hub is pretty strong and rx-rk5 is the 5 speed version. I haven't seen many people complaining about it. Just a bit of fear mongering going on and definitely no reason to 'run from the md1000'.
I was able to test ride the MD1000 and HD750 yesterday. Here are the takeaways from my non expert perspective where I was looking for power up off road steep trails hauling my 6'-5.5"/260 lb carcas.
1) Power: The HD 750 did fine with good speed on mild on-road up hills but not a speed burner up the hills. On off road very steep trail (20-25%?) that you would jump off if stalled it would not climb even with pedal assist on the lowest gear (stall). The MD1000 could go up the on-road hills with good speed using pedal assist and throttle only and in the lowest gear pedal assist climbed the 20-25% steep off road trail. It did stall with throttle only on the 20-25% off road climb.
2) Shifting: The HD 750 prototype had 7 gears (not 9) and shifted well and smooth under load. The MD1000 had 5 speeds and shifted up smoothly but shifting down under load it made noise and missed a gear on occasion. The noise did not sound good but if I reduced load for the shift it did fine so it may be a matter of learning what the bike wants. The torque sensor of the MD1000 was much preferred over the semi un-natural cadence sensor of the HD750 but I could see getting used to the cadence sensor if used enough.
3) Throttle: I found myself wanting to keep my hands to the inside of the grips rather than the far outside. This resulted in accidental use of the half twist throttle on the HD750 on occasion. I enjoy pedaling and the control of pedaling so would rarely use the throttle on trails. Not a big issue but the thumb throttle of the MD1000 was preferred.
4) Seat and stem: The seats were similar if not the same and reasonably comfortable for the duration used but a bit harder than my current mountain bike which is not a fat seat but not narrow either. I ran out of stem when trying to adjust the seat up. For on road my current mountain bike seat is 43" high and I could only get 39" or so on the MD1000 and HD750. With that said, for steep down hill the need is to drop the butt behind and lower than the seat so the 39" may be workable although I will get a longer stem so I am not embedding the stem only 1.5" like I had it set.
5) Tires: At 4.8" the tires seem huge and overly fat but I was supprised at how well they handled and gripped. The Maxxis tires on the MD1000 were superior to the Kendas on the HD750 in that they had deeper and more tread making them a little quitter on pavement and gave the feeling of slightly better grip in loose material.
6) Handling: They both handled similar and unexpectedly well. I could lift them in and out of a pickup, and jump off and hold them easily on stall on the steep trail. The pedals were very positive, the front shocks worked well, the tires provided smoothness and motions seemed natural.
Very impressive bikes for a first time ebike user looking for a steep trail bike.
1) Power: The HD 750 did fine with good speed on mild on-road up hills but not a speed burner up the hills. On off road very steep trail (20-25%?) that you would jump off if stalled it would not climb even with pedal assist on the lowest gear (stall). The MD1000 could go up the on-road hills with good speed using pedal assist and throttle only and in the lowest gear pedal assist climbed the 20-25% steep off road trail. It did stall with throttle only on the 20-25% off road climb.
2) Shifting: The HD 750 prototype had 7 gears (not 9) and shifted well and smooth under load. The MD1000 had 5 speeds and shifted up smoothly but shifting down under load it made noise and missed a gear on occasion. The noise did not sound good but if I reduced load for the shift it did fine so it may be a matter of learning what the bike wants. The torque sensor of the MD1000 was much preferred over the semi un-natural cadence sensor of the HD750 but I could see getting used to the cadence sensor if used enough.
3) Throttle: I found myself wanting to keep my hands to the inside of the grips rather than the far outside. This resulted in accidental use of the half twist throttle on the HD750 on occasion. I enjoy pedaling and the control of pedaling so would rarely use the throttle on trails. Not a big issue but the thumb throttle of the MD1000 was preferred.
4) Seat and stem: The seats were similar if not the same and reasonably comfortable for the duration used but a bit harder than my current mountain bike which is not a fat seat but not narrow either. I ran out of stem when trying to adjust the seat up. For on road my current mountain bike seat is 43" high and I could only get 39" or so on the MD1000 and HD750. With that said, for steep down hill the need is to drop the butt behind and lower than the seat so the 39" may be workable although I will get a longer stem so I am not embedding the stem only 1.5" like I had it set.
5) Tires: At 4.8" the tires seem huge and overly fat but I was supprised at how well they handled and gripped. The Maxxis tires on the MD1000 were superior to the Kendas on the HD750 in that they had deeper and more tread making them a little quitter on pavement and gave the feeling of slightly better grip in loose material.
6) Handling: They both handled similar and unexpectedly well. I could lift them in and out of a pickup, and jump off and hold them easily on stall on the steep trail. The pedals were very positive, the front shocks worked well, the tires provided smoothness and motions seemed natural.
Very impressive bikes for a first time ebike user looking for a steep trail bike.
RMK!
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the detailed report Chris. That pretty much lines up with my impressions but as I will not be off-roading much, the limitations you describe won't be an issue for me. As I am about your height (though a few stones lighter;-), I think I will get a Thudbuster seatpost so that I can get some more seat height and suspension. I have one semi regular ride that will be a 60 mile RT and so the comfort factor becomes critical. The 1000W motor, dual batteries and sealed gearing with belt drive are the primary features that made the MD1000 a good fit for me.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Luna uses this hub in their BABE with stock M600 motor. They will not offer the Ludi controller as I understand they do not feel the hub can handle additional torque and power. The MD1000 with stock Ultra would have even more torque and power than the M600 with ludi. Read the user feedback in the Luna support thread about this hub with the stock M600 (roughly half the power of the Ultra) and draw your own conclusions.
Luna BABE bike - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum
babe.jpg Warning, would should never shift under load (that includes throttle and pedal), you can pedal while shifting but you need to avoid putting any pressure on the pedals! It's the same for all IGH hubs (ebikes or non-ebikes). Shifting under load will likely result in a misshift, permanent...
electricbike.com
I'm not trying to fear monger, just trying to educate. I hope I'm wrong.
byunbee
Well-Known Member
@tomdav speaks the truth! 
Watt Wagons offers both IGH options for their bikes and they come with Gates Carbon Drive as standard.
wattwagons.com
Bafang Ultra is a torque monster and there's really only a couple of IGH options that are rated to handle the torque - Rohloff and Kindernay. Both IGH can handle much higher than the rated torque.
Watt Wagons offers both IGH options for their bikes and they come with Gates Carbon Drive as standard.
Ultimate Commuter Pro Specifications
This is what makes the Ultimate Commuter Pro an incredible machine. Titanium, Bafang Ultra, Archon X1 controller. and up to 3000W of power! We set a Guinness World Record on the Ultimate Commuter Pro - 400 miles, 24 hours, under a dollar of electricity.
wattwagons.com
| Rohloff Speed Hub | Kindernay XIV | |
|---|---|---|
| Number of gears: | 14 | 14 |
| Gear increments: | even 13.6% | even 13.9% |
| Range of gears: | 526% | 543% |
| Maximum input torque: | 130Nm | 150Nm |
| Gear control: | Twist shifter | Dual Thumb Shifter |
RMK!
Well-Known Member
I learned to drive a car with stick shift. Shifting required foot off the accelerator, engage clutch, shift, disengage clutch and then resume acceleration. Sounds like a lot of work, doesn't it. Like driving a car with a manual transmission, my shifts on the MD1000 will be planned and executed appropriately. If not, I may have consequences and I'm good with that.
If you are trying to help people considering this ebike to understand there may be issues if they don't ride it appropriately, then good on ya. But saying "run away" is not helpful and shows a lack of understanding what the MD1000 was designed to do.
I'm not going to be using this ebike like a traditional MB e.g. single track riding. It is a big heavy bike designed to take a payload up hills and/or go long distances between charges and do it in relative comfort. In my use case, it may go off road but not on single track MB trails. That is the way I roll (or should I say, ride). ;-)
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TomD
Well-Known Member
It's not simply shifting under load that is the issue. Pin throttle or apply too much power in the wrong gear and you can damage the hub. Rather than trust a Chinese ebike manufacturer with a poor reputation or a company like Bolton with zero experience with mid drives and/or IGH, I am inclined to go with indicators from two reputable ebike companies, one of whom will only offer the hub with a lower-powered drive, and the other one that won't offer the hub at all after testing and breaking it on their first stress test.
Well, I started out considering a Rad Rover, then after watching some of Bolton e-bikes reviews, mods, etc and came across the Bikonit. I think I'd like to go with the HD 750. Does anyone know if there is a user manual anywhere for download? I tried contacting Bikonit in US as well but no response yet. I live in CO so a test drive is not an option for me and I was hoping to learn more about the bike via the manual. That being said, I hope that it doesn't have a poorly translated manual.
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