specialized creo 2

[mschwett]

I'd like to see that proved. You're talking about a power reduction of almost 50% in eco mode. That's a serious power reduction and I'm skeptical about the rideablity of the bike in that mode and if the range would be that much increased. I'm not about to plunk down big money on the bike based in the off chance that what you say would work.

it’s not a major power reduction relative to the first creo. watts are watts - the new bike consumes 28% more watts (and gives you 28% more assist!!) at the same settings. at “40%” with rider power of 150w the old creo gave you +/- an extra 108w of mechanical power, the new one would give you 138w. you’d have to turn it down to 30% to get the same amount of assist. i’m not sure why you’d be skeptical about the “ridability” of the bike at 30% vs 40% given the exact same amount of mechanical power delivered.

more power always means less range because of the exponential effect of friction with air as speed increases, and on top of that the higher assist ratio means the human is doing less of the work and the battery doing more.

of the various changes in the new bike, the quieter, narrower, more powerful motor seems entirely positive.

 

[gpburdell]

• 2x chainring on a mid-drive motor e-bike? Please name the brand/model that has a successful design of such road e-bike. I would make use of the reduced Q-factor for more efficient pedalling.

Not sure what constitutes "successful design" for you, but the Trek Domane+ SLR with the newer TQ motor is available in 2x and reportedly has a 163mm Q factor, 6mm less than the Creo 2's 169mm. According to Trek, the TQ motor allows for as little as 135mm Q factor. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...lr/domane-slr-6/p/36701/?colorCode=black_grey

I believe Pinarello is also using this motor for their 2x road bikes.

 

[mschwett]

Not sure what constitutes "successful design" for you, but the Trek Domane+ SLR with the newer TQ motor is available in 2x and reportedly has a 163mm Q factor, 6mm less than the Creo 2's 169mm. According to Trek, the TQ motor allows for as little as 135mm Q factor. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...lr/domane-slr-6/p/36701/?colorCode=black_grey

I believe Pinarello is also using this motor for the 2x road bikes.

yes, there are now many well regarded 2x mid-drive road bikes. otherwise one must choose either less range for climbing, or bigger steps between gears. the former leads to more motor use, the latter is less of a big deal with 12 speed and not much of a problem off road.

 

[AvalancheRun]

28% more watts

Does that equate to 28% more effort required with PAS off?

 

[gpburdell]

Does that equate to 28% more effort required with PAS off?

No.

 

[mschwett]

Does that equate to 28% more effort required with PAS off?

no, definitely not. specialized still advertises these bikes as virtually no resistance when assist is off, and we haven’t heard anything to suggest otherwise in reviews.

the bigger tires and a pound or two extra would theoretically make some tiny difference but unlikely to even be measurable for most riders.

 

[AvalancheRun]

no, definitely not. specialized still advertises these bikes as virtually no resistance when assist is off, and we haven’t heard anything to suggest otherwise in reviews.

the bigger tires and a pound or two extra would theoretically make some tiny difference but unlikely to even be measurable for most riders.

Ahh, yes so I was referring to the weight/tires. That wasn't quite clear. I'm looking at one of these SL or something like the Diverge. For the e-bike it would have to be rideable unpowered like the current Vado SL which I found to be a breeze.

 

[gpburdell]

Ahh, yes so I was referring to the weight/tires. That wasn't quite clear. I'm looking at one of these SL or something like the Diverge. For the e-bike it would have to be rideable unpowered like the current Vado SL which I found to be a breeze.

My Creo 1 E5 with 42mm Pathfinder tires is a wee bit heavier than the Creo 2 Comp's claimed weight, and it rides great with assist off.

I'd looked @ the Diverge a while back considering it as a gravel bike. Ended up buying the E5 and putting the 42's on it. I mostly just use the assist to take the worst of the suck off of steep climbs.

 

[Jimbo08]

you just have to turn the support way down - to match the v1 support levels - and then the only problem re:range would be the tires.

Some observations from work/play at a large 46 year old Spesh dealership (as well as several other brands of bikes and motors). I work on and ride both SL motors and regular Vado/Como motors on an everyday basis. I commute 12 km each way several times a week during the nice weather, often taking the long way home just to extend the joyfull ride. And ride forest trails all winter on a Norco Bigfoot VLT. . At 62 and nursing one questionable knee, I fully appreciate the assist of ebikes.

To me one of the important beauties of the SL system are the RE batteries. You can ride till your butt says no. And if I am reading this right, wouldn't Mastermind allow you to fine tune the support levels to match what you personally want to 'feel'? I do personally find that Turbo assist mode on the SL seems to fall somewhere between Eco and Sport assist mode on a regular Brose motor, but that is just my own feeling. Having ridden the new SL motor and the TQ motor...they are both wonderful. But my deciding factor between the two motors would come down to 1. how does the overall bike fit and 2. is the dealer there to help me with quality service when I need it. I personally don't own or miss any 2x bikes anymore. And when the Pinion motor drive is better worked out for road bike use, transmission decisions will become less of thing.

Most of our Creo and Vado SL customers choose they're favourite tires to switch to after riding their new bike a while.

Sorry for rambling on here. Just some observations I have gathered that I hope make sense and are usefull.

 

[MikeDee]

it’s not a major power reduction relative to the first creo. watts are watts - the new bike consumes 28% more watts (and gives you 28% more assist!!) at the same settings. at “40%” with rider power of 150w the old creo gave you +/- an extra 108w of mechanical power, the new one would give you 138w. you’d have to turn it down to 30% to get the same amount of assist. i’m not sure why you’d be skeptical about the “ridability” of the bike at 30% vs 40% given the exact same amount of mechanical power delivered.

more power always means less range because of the exponential effect of friction with air as speed increases, and on top of that the higher assist ratio means the human is doing less of the work and the battery doing more.

of the various changes in the new bike, the quieter, narrower, more powerful motor seems entirely positive.

I'd like to see a report from someone that owned and did long rides on a Creo 1 and upgraded to a Creo 2 and can comment on the range and performance/rideability after turning down the power. I turned down the level 1 (eco mode) power 15% on my Orbea Gain, and I noticed no increase in battery range over the same 35 mile ride done in L1 mode so there is that.

This is pretty much an academic exercise anyway because the Creo 2 is a gravel bike (it looks like a great one for that purpose) and not the road/endurance bike it once was so I'm basically not interested anymore.

 

[Jimbo08]

Did the same ride on the same bike at exactly the same temps and the wind was 0 each ride. Rode the Vado 5.0 on Eco. First time we went 32km/hour
and had 28% battery left at the end of the journey. Second time we cut the speed by 12 to 20km/hour. Had 57% battery left the second ride.

 

[gpburdell]

Did the same ride on the same bike at exactly the same temps and the wind was 0 each ride. Rode the Vado 5.0 on Eco. First time we went 32km/hour
and had 28% battery left at the end of the journey. Second time we cut the speed by 12 to 20km/hour. Had 57% battery left the second ride.

FWIW don't expect a linear relationship between average speed and battery usage. Force of drag - which the motor must overcome - includes velocity-squared as part of the equation, making the relationship inherently nonlinear.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I guess for a gravel bike that range is OK?

Not at all. A gravel bike requires a very long range. As others said, it is possible to reduce the assistance of the Creo 2 motor to keep it on par with the Creo 1 performance while still having more power for steep climbs in 100% Turbo.

I'm currently riding an SL 1.1 e-bike in 30/60% assistance (which gives me some 150 km range with a Range Extender), and unassisted sometimes. I'd say a healthy user would only turn the assistance on for climbs, upwind, or in really rough terrain for Creo 2.

Jimbo is right to say the Range Extender is a beauty. However, you would be hesitant to take multiple Range Extenders for, say, a gravel ultramarathon as each of them adds as much as 1 kg to your baggage, and you need a possibly lightweight e-bike to be able to carry it over obstacles...

Force of drag - which the motor must overcome - includes velocity-squared as part of the equation, making the relationship inherently nonlinear.

It is true but the power-demand (not the drag force) is the cube (third power) relationship, making it even worse.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I do wonder if Spesh has something up their sleeve for a new model dedicated lightweight e-road bike. Either long term planning with a totally new lightweight motor, to say, compete with the Q factor of the TQ. Or shorter term perhaps using the Mahle X2O hub motor. After all they have a joint endeavour with Mahle and it wouldn’t be that difficult to create an E-Roubaix with this lightweight hub motor. It’s a big market. Orbea for instance sells a ton of very nice looking Gains with that motor. And for road use it might make sense creating an overall lighter package then the SL1.2 motor is capable of with the possibility of 2x gearing and a traditional narrow Q factor etc. In my experience although gravel has grown massively over the last ten years, e-gravel bikes not so much, with the ages for gravel riders being in general younger and not so interested in E bikes even if general sales of ordinary- non elec gravel bikes has exploded. Whereas the older demographic use of road e bikes for health and fitness is still very large and they tend to have deep pockets.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Or shorter term perhaps using the Mahle X2O hub motor.

HAHAHA.
Ras. Specialized is the only brand with the exclusive ownership rights for the SL motors. The brand has developed the entire SL ecosystem including the electronics and batteries. Specialized is not Trek that cannot make a decision what motor system to implement and now Trek has embraced 6 to 7 different e-bike systems

Implementing the X20 that every user is unhappy with would be an utter disaster...

 

[Rás Cnoic]

HAHAHA.
Ras. Specialized is the only brand with the exclusive ownership rights for the SL motors. The brand has developed the entire SL ecosystem including the electronics and batteries. Specialized is not Trek that cannot make a decision what motor system to implement and now Trek has embraced 6 to 7 different e-bike systems

Implementing the X20 that every user is unhappy with would be an utter disaster...

Mahle who make the X20 who ‘every user is unhappy with’

With a record like that, this Mahle company sounds very dodgy! Somebody should warn Orbea. Thank God Spesh have nothing to do with them and developed their own unique Mahle SL lightweight motor- wait what?

We’ll at least Spesh have their own developed, unique motor on their full fat emtbs powered by Brose- wait what?

Things change. Companies evolve. Mahle hub motors, formerly Ebikemotion motors, are best sellers and used by many road bike brands from Pinarello to Orbea.

How brands implement warranty claims of motor failures could be the subject of it’s own massive discussion on here, but ultimately all motors fail. I’m on my third SL motor now. On my third TCU. Emtb boards are full of SL and Brose failures, among the failures of most other motor brands. No brand or motor manufacturer is immune.

I’m puzzled and many on here seem to be puzzled about the pure gravel direction of Creo 2. The eyebrow raising stat for me was not to use tyres narrower then 38mm. That’s pretty clear what this bike is intended for and rather than a bike you can whip on a pair of tyres that suit your rides, they actually want the creo 2 to only be for gravel. The simplest solution is Spesh bringing out a more road centric version of Creo 2 in the coming months. And that might well be happen. But it got me thinking what are the other alternatives. You know, for fun.

It’s getting boring that you’re such a Specialized fan boy Stefan. Like some sort of attack dog, bristling at any comment that might dare to differ from what you perceive to be the orthodoxy.

 

[mschwett]

...
I’m puzzled and many on here seem to be puzzled about the pure gravel direction of Creo 2. The eyebrow raising stat for me was not to use tyres narrower then 38mm. That’s pretty clear what this bike is intended for and rather than a bike you can whip on a pair of tyres that suit your rides, they actually want the creo 2 to only be for gravel. The simplest solution is Spesh bringing out a more road centric version of Creo 2 in the coming months. And that might well be happen. But it got me thinking what are the other alternatives. You know, for fun.

It’s getting boring that you’re such a Specialized fan boy Stefan. Like some sort of attack dog, bristling at any comment that might dare to differ from what you perceive to be the orthodoxy.

yep, it's pretty clear what this bike is for. i'm sure the bike rolls fine with 30 or 32mm tires, given the other stats, but it's clearly not a road bike. their attempt to say it's suitable as such is the only really annoying thing about this. if they never come out with another lightweight ebike suitable for road use, i'd be very surprised.

 

[WildPaul]

Late last week I took delivery of an S-Works Creo 2 in size 56. I'm still getting it dialed in, with the help of our awesome local Specialized-owned dealer (Biker's Edge here in CT.) I'll do a full/proper review after a few more weeks of riding, but thought I'd drop a few initial impressions here -

First, for context, I currently own and regularly ride a Vado 5.0 IGH, temporarily owned a Vado 5 SL for a few weeks (before returning it), and have test-ridden many other e-bikes over the past few years. Otherwise my acoustic bike experience is decades old at this point ;-)

So - after just a few dozen miles on the s-works creo 2 over the last few days, first impressions: this is easily the most amazing bike I have ever personally ridden. Which, of course it should be, at over $15k with accessories! Straight from the store, I was a bit underwhelmed - the ride felt harsh, the derailleur was making strange noises under load, the tires felt soggy, the seat was uncomfortable, and my riding position/comfort was off. Here's what it took to get that all sorted:

• Swapped OEM seat for s-works power with mirror (my personal favorite saddle)
• Disassembled, re-greased, re-assembled, and re-calibrated the entire groupset
• Installed 3 supplied spacers to increase stack height by 15mm
• Replaced OEM dropper post with a roval terra carbon seatpost with 20mm setback
• Converted tires to tubeless
• Installed shimano pd-eh500 pedals

After these adjustments, I am very happy to report that I now feel like I'm getting my money's worth (which is really saying something, given the eye-watering price tag!) Of all the changes listed above, I think the seatpost replacement easily had the most impact. Specialized's decision to install a heavy, stiff/uncomfortable, nearly-useless (drop range) seatpost on this otherwise insanely nice carbon bike is just baffling to me. It's just laughably bad, a ridiculously overweight piece of hardware on an otherwise top-spec, superlight machine. I haven't weighed it yet, but I'd guess that replacing the seatpost easily shed a pound, maybe even two - and the roval carbon is SO much more comfortable, while still maintaining that "crisp-but-compliant" carbon feel that matches the bike perfectly.

Ok - so after these adjustments I was finally able to get a few "this feels right now" rides in today and I'm happy to report: this bike is so, so, so good. Like, it's almost hard to describe how good it is. It is an incredibly smooth, supple, and FAST ride. The closest I've ever come to feeling like a bike just disappears underneath me. Half of my rides today were power OFF and astonishingly (for me at least), I still felt like I was one with the wind - this bike wants to GO. I also really love the more relaxed geometry, personally. My back/neck won't let me ever become a super-aero speed demon anyway, so for me the gravel-inspired geometry (together with the electric assist!) is the perfect compromise between something even more upright (i.e. Vado SL) vs a pure acoustic road bike (i.e. Tarmac).

Regarding the 1.2 motor: Riding in eco (currently set to 35/35) feels like MORE than enough assist on this bike. By way of comparison, during my previous rides on an SL 1.1 motor (Vado SL 5.0) I felt like eco/35/35 was just barely enough to compensate for the weight of the bike, and I only started feeling the "benefit" of assistance (that "wind at my back" feeling) when I set power to sport (50/50) or above. With this new 1.2 motor, a setting of eco/35/35 feels equivalent to what sport/50/50+ felt like on the 1.1 motor (with the obvious caveat that the Vado SL 5.0 was probably ~5 pounds heavier than my current creo 2 setup.)

I have yet to do any range tests/calculations, but my guess is that @Stefan Mikes' assertions are correct: IF you dial the assist level on this bike to output similar wattage (equivalent to a lower assist level on this bike vs the SL 1.1 motor), then range will be the same - otherwise I'd assume that range will be reduced compared to the creo 1 at the same settings (although you'll go faster!) There's no magic here - watts are watts after all Still, I really like this setup - it means that I can get the same efficiency when I want to use an even lower assist, but then I also have even more power on demand if/when I decide I need it (to catch up to the group, tackle a hill, etc.) In default sport mode on this bike, I quickly reach 28mph on the flats. Turbo is insane, way overpowered for anything other than a super steep incline (and actually I just realized I still have my turbo set to 80/80... I haven't even tried 100/100 yet )

Oh, also, the motor is extremely quiet. It's basically imperceptible to my ears most of the time, with a very soft whir that I can only really hear when going up-hill, slow, with full assist. It is equivalent or maybe even quieter than the 2.2 motor on the Vado 5, and definitely a LOT quieter than the 1.1 motor at all speeds.

That's it for now. I'll report back after a few hundred more miles! Also of course please feel free to hit me up with any questions and I'll do my best to answer. Next big milestone for me is achieving my first century, which I'm planning with some family and friends at next year's Marin Century ride in CA. Hoping this bike can help me get it done!

Best,
Paul

 

[mschwett]

Late last week I took delivery of an S-Works Creo 2 in size 56. I'm still getting it dialed in, with the help of our awesome local Specialized-owned dealer (Biker's Edge here in CT.) I'll do a full/proper review after a few more weeks of riding, but thought I'd drop a few initial impressions here -

First, for context, I currently own and regularly ride a Vado 5.0 IGH, temporarily owned a Vado 5 SL for a few weeks (before returning it), and have test-ridden many other e-bikes over the past few years. Otherwise my acoustic bike experience is decades old at this point ;-)

So - after just a few dozen miles on the s-works creo 2 over the last few days - this is easily the most incredible bike I've ever personally ridden. Which, of course it should be, at over $15k with accessories! Straight from the store, I was a bit underwhelmed - the ride felt harsh, the derailleur was making strange noises under load, the tires felt soggy, the seat was uncomfortable, and my riding position/comfort was off. Here's what it took to get that all sorted:

• Swapped OEM seat for s-works power with mirror (my personal favorite saddle)
• Disassembled, re-greased, re-assembled, and re-calibrated the entire groupset
• Installed 3 supplied spacers to increase stack height by 15mm
• Replaced OEM dropper post with a roval terra carbon seatpost with 20mm setback
• Converted tires to tubeless
• Installed shimano pd-eh500 pedals

After these adjustments, I am very happy to report that I now feel like I'm getting my money's worth (which is really saying something, given the eye-watering price tag!) Of all the changes listed above, I think the seatpost replacement easily had the most impact. Specialized's decision to install a heavy, stiff/uncomfortable, nearly-useless (drop range) seatpost on this otherwise insanely nice carbon bike is just baffling to me. It's just laughably bad, a ridiculously overweight piece of hardware on an otherwise top-spec, superlight machine. I haven't weighed it yet, but I'd guess that replacing the seatpost easily shed a pound, maybe even two - and the roval carbon is SO much more comfortable, while still maintaining that "crisp" carbon feel that matches the bike perfectly.

Ok - so after these adjustments I was finally able to get a few "this feels right now" rides in today and I'm happy to report: this bike is so, so, so good. Like, it's almost hard to describe how good it is. It is an incredibly smooth, supple, and FAST ride. The closest I've ever come to feeling like a bike just disappears underneath me. Half of my rides today were power OFF and astonishingly (for me at least), I still felt like I was one with the wind - this bike wants to GO. I also really love the more relaxed geometry, personally. My back/neck won't let me ever become a super-aero speed demon anyway, so for me the gravel-inspired geometry (together with the electric assist!) is the perfect compromise between something even more upright (i.e. Vado SL) vs a pure acoustic road bike (i.e. Tarmac).

Regarding the 1.2 motor: Riding in eco (currently set to 35/35) feels like MORE than enough assist on this bike. By way of comparison, during my previous rides on an SL 1.1 motor (Vado SL 5.0) I felt like eco/35/35 was just barely enough to compensate for the weight of the bike, and I only started feeling the "benefit" of assistance (that "wind at my back" feeling) when I set power to sport (50/50) or above. With this new 1.2 motor, a setting of eco/35/35 feels equivalent to what sport/50/50+ felt like on the 1.1 motor (with the obvious caveat that the Vado SL 5.0 was probably ~5 pounds heavier than my current creo 2 setup.)

I have yet to do any range tests/calculations, but my guess is that @Stefan Mikes' assertions are correct: IF you dial the assist level on this bike to output similar wattage (equivalent to a lower assist level on this bike vs the SL 1.1 motor), then range will be the same - otherwise I'd assume that range will be reduced compared to the creo 1 at the same settings (although you'll go faster!) There's no magic here - watts are watts after all Still, I really like this setup - it means that I can get the same efficiency when I want to use an even lower assist, but then I also have even more power on demand if/when I decide I need it (to catch up to the group, tackle a hill, etc.) In default sport mode on this bike, I quickly reach 28mph on the flats. Turbo is insane, way overpowered for anything other than a super steep incline (and actually I just realized I still have my turbo set to 80/80... I haven't even tried 100/100 yet )

That's it for now. I'll report back after a few hundred more miles! Also of course please feel free to hit me up with any questions and I'll do my best to answer. Next big milestone for me is achieving my first century, which I'm planning with some family and friends at next year's Marin Century ride in CA. Hoping this bike can help me get it done!

Best,
Paul

nice report! excellent move on getting rid of the useless, heavy dropper post! i have the roval alpinist post and the s works romin with mirror on both my bikes. the shape was a little better for me than the power, which I liked as well.

post pictures!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Congratulation, Paul! A nice report indeed!
Just to correct: @mschwett is saying the same about the wattage of the motor as I do