Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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Chas
Member
Why is that, speed? As I recall, US federal law is 20mph max (although as mentioned above, Specialized Turbo apparently found a way to stretch that). Most states that I'm aware of don't have clear laws on electric bikes (several states do of course).
But, any bike that can power itself above 20mph does not meet US law, (32km/hr or above 25kph in Germany and other European countries). Wave will go "28 mph on fully electric mode. " Not sure why they would talk on legality and say you can be "confident that you’re in compliance with all the rules of the road."
Llcjay
Member
Faraday is the latest fraud perpetrated on an unknowing public. A steel frame eBike with a tiny battery, for $4000? Unbelievable
George S.
Well-Known Member
Wave doesn't seem to have done any research. They are forced to cancel the international orders, but the refunds are being 'delayed'. They were clueless about the requirements to get into the EU and other places. They seemed to think 'all' ebikes were just bikes, which is sort of how people look at the CPSC rules. So all their videos show a bike whizzing along a bike path at 25+. The reality is that electric bikes are specifically banned from bike paths in California. The reality is that there is a hard speed limit at 20 mph almost anywhere, for throttle only, in the US.
These guys at Wave could get nibbled to death by small mistakes that they can't get around. It's a dark day for a campaign when they realize there is no way to make money so every bike they ship is money out of their pocket.
Incompetence is as great a worry as anything. We sort of figured out Storm was at a battery capacity where UPS might look the other way. These guys have a huge battery, and who knows what may happen when they try to ship it.
These guys at Wave could get nibbled to death by small mistakes that they can't get around. It's a dark day for a campaign when they realize there is no way to make money so every bike they ship is money out of their pocket.
Incompetence is as great a worry as anything. We sort of figured out Storm was at a battery capacity where UPS might look the other way. These guys have a huge battery, and who knows what may happen when they try to ship it.
J.R.
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Faraday was a $3500 bike I thought and it's newest model is $2800. They were a startup that provided what they said they would and only had a short delay, how is/was that a fraud? I do agree the battery was small and frame was steel, but everyone knew that going in.
George S.
Well-Known Member
The Faraday doesn't make sense to make. I could take a basic online bike for maybe $400, add a front motor, and hide a battery pack in a handlebar bag, for maybe $1100. What's the deal with this bike?
J.R.
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Overall look! Appearance! All bikes are just a bunch of parts put together, some like the parts that were chosen for this build. This isn't for the person willing to build. George you have too much imagination and creativity, Faraday isn't meant to appeal to you with your ability.
Chas
Member
Yep, for the most part I think that is correct. Its nice to see the specs come into better focus now that he has a better idea of what he is building.
[QUOTE"Yes Chas, it is turning into a far different bike from the "production" bike shown at Santa Monica.[/QUOTE]
That is rather the point of crowd funding, isn’t it? The farce is that Agency 2.0, Storm, and IGG make it look like you are purchasing a product when you are not.
Over and over on IGG, I read people saying “I bought a bike.” Uh, no. No one bought a bike. They funded a startup campaign that committed to give you a bike once the design was finalized (subject to change), and if all goes well.
Although gosondors.com is now clearly saying "buy a bike"
Chas
Member
Storm and Faraday are all about looks and style. The hipster generation responds well to this, and enough of them have disposable money to fund this kind of thing.
(see sites like http://www.supercompressor.com that had articles on Storm: http://www.supercompressor.com/gear/storm-ebike-the-electric-fat-bike-that-can-run-over-anything )
I don't think a shinola (city bike, no motor) is worth $3000 either, but hey have that hipster style like the Faraday or Storm.
http://www.shinola.com/shop/bicycles/the-runwell-bicycle.html
(P.S. the wave bike certainly does not have the hipster style).
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
How is that fraud? Are they lying about the specs of the bike? I agree the price is not worth what one would get but that's subjective. Value is different from fraud.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
I see Wave as a copycat Storm, I don't see much of a difference in the field of e:bike incompetence between the two. Storm, however, knows exactly what he is doing financially in that he knows who he will bilk, and how he will bilk them. It is quite obvious that Agency 2.0 will be bilked financially, and buyers of the Storm bike will be bilked qualitatively in the form of non-existent back-end support and bonafides (product liability insurance, warranty, recourse)
It is very interesting that Sondors does not give regular updates in that all it would take is a phone call to his PR guy. eg 3000 bikes shipped 7000 to go! They have phones in China? Got Milk! Got Bike? Got Phone!
It would be interesting to know if his Chinese vendors Got Paid!
This lack of communication confirms that there will be no back-end to this project; at best it will be a marketing pump and a product dump.
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Ann M.
Well-Known Member
The last time I investigated importing a container of ebikes from China (which has been a few years, admittedly) the manufacturer required part or all $$ up front. If it was a partial payment, then the balance was due before product was loaded onto the ship (FOB) using wire transfer, credit card or other direct banking with confirmation. These manufacturers are not foolish.
George S.
Well-Known Member
I think we were both involved with a campaign where the managers were kind of 'purists'. If you dig around the Faraday website the details are what they do not emphasize. A very small battery and a very weak motor. I think they could have kept the basic design and made a more capable bike.
I suppose it is a city bike, for a relatively flat city, and a place where a 15mph cruise works pretty well. The original had the belt drive and the Alfine, I think, so you could say it was more of a technological leader, something uniquely refined. With the basic IGH and the chain it's much easier to say it is 'just an ebike'.
No reason for me not to hope they succeed. They aren't pushing the speed. I guess I wish people would look at the Faraday and the basic speed profile and think that is good. But you could also say it could do that, be that, but climb hills and go a more honest 25-30 miles, which is where people seem to end up when they get in ebike shape.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Now IGG is allowing the sale of a medical device that has not been FDA approved (or that has participated in the FDA process)
http://www.fundairing.com/about#first-ever-micro-cpap
Oh, I forgot a sale is a perk. So I stay on message please find a SKillion ebike; after all there are now skillions of ebike crowd funding offerings;
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skillion-electric-fatbike--2#/story
http://www.fundairing.com/about#first-ever-micro-cpap
Oh, I forgot a sale is a perk. So I stay on message please find a SKillion ebike; after all there are now skillions of ebike crowd funding offerings;
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skillion-electric-fatbike--2#/story
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pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
Stretching the boundaries a bit here aren't we? 2 of the 5 campaign 'creators' are harvard school of medicine graduates (and 1 a current teacher). Who is going to listen to you if you simply blindly dismiss everything?
FTC Complaint
Active Member
You would think I was stretching the boundaries but the Marsh Echelon and Encite story is riddled with lawsuits as well. Fact is strange, and the fact here is that there is a pre-existing conspiracy on which this funding has landed. Besides, selling (pre-selling via perks) a medical device is both illegal and bad mojo. The device being sold does not yet exist and thus has a stringent regulatory hurdle to pass more so than would an electric wheelchair (a simple pre-existing product of similar form).
A JUDGE in a prior action called Mr. Marsh's conduct redolent; in other words a judge said his conduct has a smell of its own!
http://www.potteranderson.com/media/experience/264_Encite.pdf
One of the conclusions is that Marsh (the guy raising money in the crowd funding) had questionable as opposed to unclean hands Although Marsh's alleged conduct, particularly his use of information from “The Mole,” is strongly redolent of inequity and is described with some particularity, I cannot on this record find Encite barred here as a plaintiff as a matter of law under the doctrine of unclean hands.
NOW, Marsh is trying to raise money for a "Vaporware" device that should not be sold without regulatory oversight. This time it is a medical device as opposed to a "dangerous" consumer product.
To do a crowdfunding all you need is a pulse! so it is attracting folks who would not pass the smell test of raising venture capital.
Bottom line; don't buy products on crowd funding, ebikes or anything frankly.
Puns here include airing your dirty laundry; but that does not seem to mean anything to 1000 folks willing to hand over money in an instant!
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stevenast
Well-Known Member
Does that suggest that the "previous conspiracy", which I presume you mean is Sondors, is being mislabeled?
Lawsuits, vague communication, changing stories... most importantly, we are virtually certain that Sondors is not going to be able to pay his debts and also supply the thousands of e-bikes he's promised.
It would be surprising if he manages to do either one...
I decided I wanted to experience some of the angst of funders of the Ivars campaign by ordering one of these. Just received an email and it sent shudders down my spine, hopefully Ivars is not involved in this one too!!!!
http://www.lily.camera/?ct-referral-code=UJ3QQmeX
Hi Everyone,
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http://www.lily.camera/?ct-referral-code=UJ3QQmeX
Hi Everyone,
We have reached the end of the initial pre-order period. We want to thank you all again for the huge amount of enthusiasm you have shown towards Lily in the past month. We are currently laser-focused on putting Lily Cameras in your hands by February 2016.
Lily is now available for pre-order at $599 with a May 2016 shipping date. We look forward to getting to know all of you better in the next few months.
Your Lily Team
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