Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[Chas]

Tesla pays around $2 a cell for the very latest, very best. But he buys millions of cells. The good news for Storm is that he is buying 300,000 cells, so I think you get the BIG discount. He could be under $2, since he is there, and this is not a state of the art cell that most people want, just to save space and weight. I'm guessing he got a deal when he mentioned the volume. You buy cells and someone puts the packs together. I think the guy is really good at this stuff.

You find stuff on Aliexpress, as you move up in volume. I don't know if this cell is high discharge.

http://www.aliexpress.com

Agreed George. It would cost you or I about $4.50 per cell, Elon Musk about $2/cell. I think it is safe to say that Ivars is paying some where in between those numbers.

However, the point is that good Samsung cells cost about twice what a generic Chinese ebike battery cell costs. As skeptical as I am, I give him kudos for using quality batteries when he could have gotten cheap e-bike batteries for half the price. Based on your numbers, he could save $300,000 0 $500,000 by skimping on batteries.

 

[Chas]

.5c; that is why the "false claim" about the 5 amp charger was so obvious as you would be having exploding and igniting batteries everywhere.

Drone batteries have lots of surface area and thus can charge and discharge quickly, and that technical aspect is called C; the 18650 platform is not ideal in that regard; but you can put them in parallel as needed for more C. (but that won't be done here for cost).

What you are getting with Storm is a cheap (untested and un-certified) battery pack with a low C; you will draw down the battery at full throttle beyond its discharge capacity and under-volt. This is not a defect, it is just a cheap battery.

Storm knew nothing about batteries prior to his efforts in finding a deliverable. I think the odds favor that you are going to get a cheap unsupportable and unsupported bike with Agency 2.0 getting bilked in total. BTW, Storm seems to be an angel compared to the Airing CPAP; stay away from crowdfunding folks.

Hello my friend,

None of us know what cell Ivars is using. However, I recently posted a spec sheet for a cell that matches his claims and his photos. It might benefit you to read Samsung's official specs (rather than aliexpress.com).

Charge at 1300ma to 2600mA (0.5 to 1.0 C)
Discharge at 2600ma to 5200 mA (1.o to 2.0C)

Here it is again. does this help?
http://www.oomipood.ee/kasutusjuhend/ICR18650-26FM.pdf

20C is fine for this bike. A higher C rate would just be a waste. Regardless of what people personally think of Ivars, he (and the people advising him) are not stupid. We all know that his claims in January were grossly optimistic, but he (they) are making reasonable decisions specing out the bike.

 

[Hurley]

True, but like with my charger post the batteries are expensive. Prodeco Tech. probably uses something similar to those batteries FTC.
Batteries in series-add the voltages. Batteries in-parallel add the currents.

I think what Sonders means by 50 mile range is that you peddle the other 30 miles between throttle or a nice 5% downhill grade for the duration (don't get me talking about the possibilities in space).
Of course by the time you receive your Sondors bike maybe battery technology will improve by leaps and bounds.

 

[Hurley]

I was just thinking...
I have yet to see more than 3 fully assembled Sondors bikes at one time.
If you want to sell more bikes and comfort the donors, why not before you box the bikes, take a picture of all of them first? Very strange...

 

[FTC Complaint]

LOL.

Yes, Sonders is obviously shipping empty boxes with the name Sonders on them, or at least 1 container that we've heard of. It's all so clear now!

He is going to ship bikes for the sole reason that to do otherwise would result in, and I am figuratively speaking here, the public lynching of Sondors and Indiegogo.

Bad business is not illegal.

 

[Hurley]

I doubt Sondors cares about being figuratively lynched or what Indiegogo thinks. Especially if he comes away with millions. There are far more questions than answers. Just does not make any sense considering pictures are so easy.
I don't think this guy is anywhere near as smart as he is greedy.

 

[pxpaulx]

I doubt Sondors cares about being figuratively lynched or what Indiegogo thinks. Especially if he comes away with millions. There are far more questions than answers. Just does not make any sense considering pictures are so easy.
I don't think this guy is anywhere near as smart as he is greedy.

Yes, I'm sure greed was his #1 motivation when he set the lofty campaign goal at $75,000. Scaling growth is difficult at even a modest level; not being prepared to sell 77 times what you hoped to accomplish is clearly a double edged sword. As always, my statement is I hope everyone receives the bike they paid for.

 

[Hurley]

Yes, I'm sure greed was his #1 motivation when he set the lofty campaign goal at $75,000. Scaling growth is difficult at even a modest level; not being prepared to sell 77 times what you hoped to accomplish is clearly a double edged sword. As always, my statement is I hope everyone receives the bike they paid for.

But yet he is still trying to sell more bikes as we speak (will this campaign ever end)...

 

[stevenast]

Yes, I'm sure greed was his #1 motivation when he set the lofty campaign goal at $75,000. Scaling growth is difficult at even a modest level; not being prepared to sell 77 times what you hoped to accomplish is clearly a double edged sword. As always, my statement is I hope everyone receives the bike they paid for.

Gotta give agency 2.0 ( or whatever version they are) credit for running a great marketing campaign. Wonder if they're going to get paid...

 

[wa5]

pxpaulx said QUOTE.. Yes, I'm sure greed was his #1 motivation when he set the lofty campaign goal at $75,000. Scaling growth is difficult at even a modest level; not being prepared to sell 77 times what you hoped to accomplish is clearly a double edged sword. As always, my statement is I hope everyone receives the bike they paid for. END>

When I read the courd documentation, they weren't aiming for 75k, they were aiming for 10-14 Million. in that respect the campaign has been a failure.

I think Storm will deliver some bikes, not sure what the quality will be like. but I think either some funders or agency 2.0 will get burned..

 

[Chas]

Sondors is buying over half a million dollars worth of cells? In ready-made packs, correct?

How much did he sell? 10,000 bikes?
Its 40 batteries per bike (10s4p). so, 400,000 batteries at 2.00-4.50 a cell? May be $3/cell? that = $1,200,000. That is the biggest piece of the budget.

 

[Chas]

We should rename this thread Sondor's Skeptics corner!

@stevenast Yes, Agency 2.0 did an amazing job. I can't see this campaign having generated the money it did without them, and Sondors should be very grateful for their help (I would be in his shoes). They made the difference here. Unfortunately they didn't know they were doing in some regards, seriously misrepresented the campaign, and had little interest in being factual, just in doing whatever it took to raise the maximum amount of money. In that they succeeded spectacularly. They just are not that mature enough of an organization to effectively manage a campaign like this.

 

[Hurley]

How much did he sell? 10,000 bikes?
Its 40 batteries per bike (10s4p). so, 400,000 batteries at 2.00-4.50 a cell? May be $3/cell? that = $1,200,000. That is the biggest piece of the budget.

My guess would be handling and shipping to be the biggest cost. Also, if Agency 2.0 gets their contracted share that would be a hefty chunk.

 

[wa5]

(Chas Said QUOTE)

ChasMember
How much did he sell? 10,000 bikes? (END)

I believe it was quite a bit less than ten thousand, 7 to 8 thousand has been bandied around.. never going to get the truth out of Sondorco that's for sure.

 

[pxpaulx]

My guess would be handling and shipping to be the biggest cost. Also, if Agency 2.0 gets their contracted share that would be a hefty chunk.

Thing is Sondors is charging more than the cost of shipping for his shipping - so the shipping cost is covered in that $195. How am I sure about that? The Radrover guys also said $195 or less, but actually followed through, and billed $175 (just yesterday). That was one of the things I appreciated most about the Radrover campaign - that when it ended, it was done - no more indiegogo, no in-demand, no paying for shipping via perks.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Yes, Agency 2.0 did an amazing job. I can't see this campaign having generated the money it did without them, and Sondors should be very grateful for their help (I would be in his shoes). They made the difference here. Unfortunately they didn't know they were doing in some regards, seriously misrepresented the campaign, and had little interest in being factual, just in doing whatever it took to raise the maximum amount of money. In that they succeeded spectacularly. They just are not that mature enough of an organization to effectively manage a campaign like this.

Agency 2.0 will be used as a dumping ground for things such as "misrepresentations" or the "mishandling of orders," but that is sort of the natural to do with the "fired" party. There is some assumption however that folks at Sondors and Agency 2.0 did not know what they were doing; or that it was a small humble effort, or that crowdfunding helps the little guy and the consumer; all those points are fallacious. The whole effort is highly sophisticated and polished.

Part of the sophistication resides in the ability to skirt laws and regulation, technical qualification, accountability, and the due diligence needed for raising money or selling a product legitimately through traditional channels.

There is no barrier to starting a crowdfunding other than generating perception based excitment.

 

[Hurley]

"
garry.rossino
18 hours ago
I received an email indicating that my shipping for a Storm E Bike had not been paid. I have emailed a copy of the receipt for payment of the paid shipping to the support website, but there has been no acknowledgement either way. I have definitely paid the shipping charges. I also responded to the email by indicating that I have paid. Can someone please respond?
Thanks, Garry"

Sad.
Sondors is responsive in terms of "where is my money" but completely silent the other way around.
I feel bad for the backers--especially the ones that can barely afford this bike.

Meanwhile a campaign that started after Sondors (RadRover)...

"salsanacho
Just got my invoice! I’m obviously a batch 1er as well, but it looks like they are busy working their way through the orders today!
Ty Collins
15 hours ago
@Mark baron, No worries! We will absolutely pick up the rate of our updates to keep all of you in the loop as much as possible!

- Ty, RPB"

 

[wa5]

first ones are in the US..
1 hour ago
The first few containers have arrived!

We've just been notified from the freight company that the first few containers of Black Frame/Yellow Rim Sondors electric bicycles have arrived at the port! Once they've been cleared by customs they'll be delivered to UPS and then will start shipping to backers' doorsteps! UPS will be emailing tracking numbers to backers as they're processed.In the mean time, here are photos from the actual step-by-step production process:

In the mean time, here are photos from the actual step-by-step production process: CLICK HERE to go to the Sondors Blog.

 

[Hurley]

Great news!!!

But, the jury is still out...

 

[wa5]

agreed re jury