Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

Semantics Aside: Uber drivers in CA will be considered employees, not contractors
Semantics Aside: Perks on IGG will be considered to be a purchase and a sale, not a nebulous exculpation from law and ethical conduct.

Does this sound familiar;

“The defendants hold themselves out as nothing more than a neutral technological platform, designed simply to enable drivers and passengers to transact the business of transportation,” the commissioner wrote. “The reality, however, is that defendants are involved in every aspect of the operation.”

I bet with Storm ebike and other offerings it does; IGG is a platform for the sale of goods and has a vested interest and consideration for the same.

From a related class action (substitute IGG for Uber) : Uber is no more a “technology company” than Yellow Cab is a “technology company” because it uses CB radios to dispatch taxi cabs, John Deere is a “technology company” because it uses computers and robots to manufacture lawn mowers, or Domino Sugar is a “technology company” because it uses modern irrigation techniques to grow its sugar cane. Indeed, very few (if any) firms are not technology companies if one focuses solely on how they create or distribute their products. If, however, the focus is on the substance of what the firm actually does. (from a class action; Judge Chen goes on to say that old rules must be applied to the "sharing economy" until such time as new laws are written, I just say apply common sense)

IGG Sells and markets product, plain and simple.
 
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IGG brings entrepreneurs with ideas together with people who are willing to fund those ideas with the goal of receiving the thing they helped fund, at a reduced price. A product might be produced or might not be produced and there is risk involved in contributing. The thing produced might only be in a limited quantity and might never be available to the general public in the future. Or it could be. There's no guarantee of that. From statistics that have been posted here from other sources, the estimate is that something like 10% to 20% of these campaigns are successful (not sure exactly what criteria is used, but I'm sure someone here has done that homework).

To me, IGG campaigns are like little mini angel investors, with funding risks inherent. Instead of receiving a % of the company or stock, the contributor is intending to receive a perk of some kind...from as little as a tschoke like a coffee cup or a sticker all the way up to 1 or more of what eventually gets produced. They could end up with nothing in the end; that is one of the stated risks.

In fact we know that 1 perk offered, though not fully utilized until the sh!tStorm campaign, was the ability to contribute the vast sum of $1 and as a result be able to voice the same questions, complaints, rants, and conspiracy theories overAndoverAndover on the campaign page.
 
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not sure exactly what criteria is used,

Meeting the funding goal would be the criteria they are using to gauge success, not fulfillment.

Actually, I have an email trail with IGG that is outrageous whereby they tried very hard to stop me and a member of the press from asking any pertinent question (which was either met with silence or stonewalling), they control the information landscape in total; including the shaping of your perception. Your perception differing very much from law and fact.
 
Im liking the Sondors shipping schedule.. And backers of Faraday Porteur and FlyKly had to wait months and over a year to get their underperforming nonsense.. And with the Faraday, they were taken for $3500 in the process!

"Shipping of Black/Yellow bikes started on the last day of May. The most recent update on Saturday, June 6th said production of B/Y bikes will be complete by the end of next week. Since it was a day ahead in China, the end of next week probably meant June 19th. So a total of 20 days to assemble, and ship all the B/Y bikes.

That time frame works out, because then the June 6th update says the Black/Black bikes will start shipping in 12 to 14 days which would be about June 19th.

The Yellow/Orange bikes are supposed to ship 22 to 24 days after the 6th, so lets say worst case, June 30th, 24 days after the update. Then the final Blue/Black bikes start shipping on July 1st 27 days after the update."

Very impressive. Very American!
 
Here is the latest update from Sondors...

Hi Sondors Backers!
Here are more photos from the assembly line ... a lot of continued progress in shipping more and more of your bikes out every day!
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krfc0ttbkn3atyetmlus.jpg nctdgj7adrizo5avl0xg.jpg ojbjxcn68ay8hnmxwhsy.jpg pwsewn8flhgkaucvazl0.jpg t6e5nnam3mxrse5cvjmm.jpg nw83rawz94fkc4ozsfrx.jpg

qkbiseqh6w3obhyvertq.jpg
Storm Sondors
 
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latest from Philip Hillis on ES... claims the battery size / power has increased...

Quote Theodore Voltaire / Philip Hillis Endless Sphere. ..........
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)by Theodore Voltaire » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:56 am

There are trade offs. It's true the bike is coming with a smaller charger than originally stated on the igg page, but it's also coming with a bigger battery. In this case the original battery was made with unknown brand 2200mah cells and 8.8 ah total. The new battery is made from Samsung 2600mah cells with 10.4 total a

I call that a fair trade, because it's cheaper to buy a bigger charger, than a bigger battery.

END QUOTE...

I've not been following along for a few days. so, is this correct or just another of Philips ever increasing delusions?
 
A bigger battery versus a faster charger-I would take a bigger battery any day. Better to charge more at home than peddle a heavy one geared bike further...

I agree with Phillip on this one.
 
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  • (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 
Could be true. Battery density has been going up, so many bottle batteries have more amp hours than they did a a year or two ago.

Originally he was probably thinking of the typical 2.2mAh battery. 10s4p gives (2.2*4) 8.8 Amp hours. Although he was claiming 36v10Ah for a while there, he backed down to 8.8AH.

His photos showed the Samsung 26F battery, which is a 2600mAh battery. 2.6*4=10.4 Amp hours. So, yes it is realistic. Bonus points to him on not using garbage batteries with a short life span.

Spec sheet:
http://www.oomipood.ee/kasutusjuhend/ICR18650-26FM.pdf

I don't know what battery he is using, but those claims match the ability of the batteries in his photos (the purple battery packs). No, you can't charge the 26F in 90 minutes.
 
@wa5

Cells, especially known stuff like Samsung, have gotten pretty cheap. Low 2's, or 2 and small change. They need 40. The 2600 mah is no big deal, no hit to the budget. Chargers in China are $30, 2A rating. Making a primitive device like a charger is where you get the deals in China. They grind this stuff out. Known parts on a basic board in a 75 cent case.

When they announced this bike I made a comment on Court's YouTube video about the bike. I said he would have to go low quality on the battery. Things have changed that much. He saw the future, or lucked into things.
 
I gotta say, changing the motor and batteries does a lot to improve the capabilities of this bike.

There is a big difference between a cheap battery that can only put out 9 amps max vs a higher density battery that can do 20amps (although running any battery at max shortens life, I think the battery would typically pull 10 amps, which is reasonable for life span).

And going from a light 2.5lb motor to something stronger & closer to 9lbs makes a lot of sense on this bike.
 
@wa5

Cells, especially known stuff like Samsung, have gotten pretty cheap. Low 2's, or 2 and small change. They need 40. The 2600 mah is no big deal, no hit to the budget. Chargers in China are $30, 2A rating. Making a primitive device like a charger is where you get the deals in China. They grind this stuff out. Known parts on a basic board in a 75 cent case.

When they announced this bike I made a comment on Court's YouTube video about the bike. I said he would have to go low quality on the battery. Things have changed that much. He saw the future, or lucked into things.

I agree. I thought he was going to save money on batteries too, but looks like he is going quality. They are not cheap though. The Samsung or Panasonic is going to cost close to twice that of the cheap $2 batteries:
$4.30 for Panasonic (same price category as Samsung)
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/709-2500mah-lithium-ion-battery-18650-battery-cell-battery.html
Cheap $2.5 battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/709-2500mah-lithium-ion-battery-18650-battery-cell-battery.html

10s4p is 40 batteries. I'm sure he is getting a good deal, but the 26F is going to cost between $3 and $4 per battery.
 
@Hurley Any of us can buy a 36V2.5A charger for under $17 (or cheaper if you get 10,000 of them). There is no point in using an $79 charger for this bike.
 
There are some good battery chargers out there that will charge to a certain level, are fast chargers, or even programmable. In general you may get what you pay for, but no point in paying for what you will never use. They are good for their purpose, but not what you would choose for an inexpensive bike.
 
I agree. I thought he was going to save money on batteries too, but looks like he is going quality. They are not cheap though. The Samsung or Panasonic is going to cost close to twice that of the cheap $2 batteries:
$4.30 for Panasonic (same price category as Samsung)
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
Cheap $2.5 battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/709-2500mah-lithium-ion-battery-18650-battery-cell-battery.html

10s4p is 40 batteries. I'm sure he is getting a good deal, but the 26F is going to cost between $3 and $4 per battery.

Tesla pays around $2 a cell for the very latest, very best. But he buys millions of cells. The good news for Storm is that he is buying 300,000 cells, so I think you get the BIG discount. He could be under $2, since he is there, and this is not a state of the art cell that most people want, just to save space and weight. I'm guessing he got a deal when he mentioned the volume. You buy cells and someone puts the packs together. I think the guy is really good at this stuff.

You find stuff on Aliexpress, as you move up in volume. I don't know if this cell is high discharge.

http://www.aliexpress.com
 
Tesla pays around $2 a cell for the very latest, very best. But he buys millions of cells. The good news for Storm is that he is buying 300,000 cells, so I think you get the BIG discount.

Sondors is buying over half a million dollars worth of cells? In ready-made packs, correct?
 
I don't know if this cell is high discharge.

.5c; that is why the "false claim" about the 5 amp charger was so obvious as you would be having exploding and igniting batteries everywhere.

Drone batteries have lots of surface area and thus can charge and discharge quickly, and that technical aspect is called C; the 18650 platform is not ideal in that regard; but you can put them in parallel as needed for more C. (but that won't be done here for cost).

What you are getting with Storm is a cheap (untested and un-certified) battery pack with a low C; you will draw down the battery at full throttle beyond its discharge capacity and under-volt. This is not a defect, it is just a cheap battery.

Storm knew nothing about batteries prior to his efforts in finding a deliverable. I think the odds favor that you are going to get a cheap unsupportable and unsupported bike with Agency 2.0 getting bilked in total. BTW, Storm seems to be an angel compared to the Airing CPAP; stay away from crowdfunding folks.

 
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@FTC Complaint

I use 'drone' batteries in the ebike I built. That is, I use lithium polymer 'pouch' cells, soldered into packs. Mine are rated 30C, but that is really the discharge rate, not the charge rate. No one recommends charging at over 1C. The RC devices, like drones, use massive amounts of power in a few minutes.

I don't know what battery Storm ends up with. There are always multiple versions at any mah rating. I can wait to find out, if anyone takes the pack apart enough to check. Beyond that, the 'bottle' battery is incredibly popular for kits and low volume manufacturers. It is what it is.

With RC stuff there are basic precautions. RC batteries are considered the most dangerous. You shouldn't fast charge them. You should charge and store in explosion proof jackets. You should check the balance at all times. You should avoid max charge and max discharge voltages (4.2/3.2), toss any pack where a cell has vented.

Elio, the little car, has never done a crowdfund. But I see he is doing a crowdfund private equity offering to raise money to build the car. The SEC apparently changed some rules. This stuff doesn't seem to be going away.
 
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