Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[George S.]

Ausgezeichnet, ich brauche keine Mofa-Prüfbescheinigung in Deutschland. How cool is that. I just barely squeeked by that one.

Why is sondor's not a Schnelle ebike? If it is rated over 25km/hr it is a S-pedelec, right? Sondors is rated at 2o mph. Thus, it need a driver's license, plates, and the insurance, and all the extra lovely germany regulations noted.

The answer to your question is easy in Europe and has been established for years in Germany; HAI customers follow those same regulations (and have for years).

In the US that was a great story with the Specialized turbo, who's advertised speed of 28mph blew past the 20mph limit in the US. We all wondered how they were going to handle that one, but they managed to bend the rules enough to say: "Hey, it won't do over 20mph unless you pedal, so it meets the US federal regulations." That was an interesting story.

No one really has used the S-Ped thing in the US. It's part of the proposed change in California. Under the Cal rules, the Sondors would remain be a Class 2, because of the throttle, and because it is sub-20 mph. The thing with the "pedal at 28 mph" exception is that the US States, which really decide, never went along all that well. But it is kind of locked in with the Cal Class 3, which goes to 28 mph with a PAS system.

Apparently Germany has moved this along much more than the EU? Going with the S-Ped is a lot more regulated, but you pick up a lot of useful speed, and the regs are not exactly onerous. The US problem is that they will never synchronize the regs because of the 50 states. If you get California, it helps a lot.

It's interesting that Haibike doesn't even pretend that the 45 kph cycles are bicycles, or even 'ebikes'. It's also interesting that they have that 20 kph throttle with the S-Ped.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Gotta admire the vision to pull this off. He will be an instant millionaire.

Nope.. He does not have 17% net margin; he might if he does not pay his Agency 2.0 bill!

 

[Chas]

The design flaw:

Sondor's bikes are remarkably similar to my early mountain bike designs. And, they both share one significant design flaw. I love single speed bikes for their light weight and simplicity. Unfortunately with an e-bike, you have to choose your gearing for either pedaling under power or pedaling without power. You can’t have a single gear that allows you to effectively pedal under both conditions.

Fortunately for me, I had spare parts lying around to add gears. With a 65lb Fat Bike geared for 20mph (~90 Gear inches) pedaling on a dead battery is impractical. Range anxiety kinda sux.

(Or gear it for pedaling without a battery (40 Gear inches) and you'll be pedaling at 165rpm under power (2omph)).

 

[Chas]

No one really has used the S-Ped thing in the US. It's part of the proposed change in California. Under the Cal rules, the Sondors would remain be a Class 2, because of the throttle, and because it is sub-20 mph. The thing with the "pedal at 28 mph" exception is that the US States, which really decide, never went along all that well. But it is kind of locked in with the Cal Class 3, which goes to 28 mph with a PAS system.

Apparently Germany has moved this along much more than the EU? Going with the S-Ped is a lot more regulated, but you pick up a lot of useful speed, and the regs are not exactly onerous. The US problem is that they will never synchronize the regs because of the 50 states. If you get California, it helps a lot.

It's interesting that Haibike doesn't even pretend that the 45 kph cycles are bicycles, or even 'ebikes'. It's also interesting that they have that 20 kph throttle with the S-Ped.

Good info. What is the difference between class 2 and class 3? Is the specialized Turbo (20 non assisted, 28 assisted) a class 3?

I am not that familiar with the European laws outside of Germany, but yeah e-bikes sell well in Germany (it’s growing where traditional bike sales are shrinking), and yeah it is pretty well regulated.

I always wonder how long we will go unregulated in the US. For now, it is pretty much anything goes, although that is changing in the larger cities and states.

 

[pxpaulx]

Good info. What is the difference between class 2 and class 3? Is the specialized Turbo (20 non assisted, 28 assisted) a class 3?

I am not that familiar with the European laws outside of Germany, but yeah e-bikes sell well in Germany (it’s growing where traditional bike sales are shrinking), and yeah it is pretty well regulated.

I always wonder how long we will go unregulated in the US. For now, it is pretty much anything goes, although that is changing in the larger cities and states.

Class 2 doesn't really exist in Europe - I believe most of the countries only allow pedelec style bikes, throttle simply isn't an available option (above 6kph), or as that article states up to 20kph on an s-pedelec.

The class 2 bike in the law proposed in CA does double duty by allowing a majority of current e-bikes to be grandfathered, but at the same time gimping future throttle e-bike sales by restricting their use, which has the side effect of benefiting the bigger companies backing the bill.

 

[Hurley]

This quote was from a Month ago. What happened? If they are already shipping bikes shouldn't the "pedal assist" equipment already be on the bike? I guess soon is more than a Month. Lets see exactly what soon means to Sondors...
Currently, there does not seem to be a "store" or anything setup for after you receive the bike.

"LCD Display: There will be an LCD Display available for purchase as an add-on soon. It will be similar to the one we showed in the battery test, but will be specifically built to be compatible with your Sondors eBike. More information to come."

 

[George S.]

Good info. What is the difference between class 2 and class 3? Is the specialized Turbo (20 non assisted, 28 assisted) a class 3?

I am not that familiar with the European laws outside of Germany, but yeah e-bikes sell well in Germany (it’s growing where traditional bike sales are shrinking), and yeah it is pretty well regulated.

I always wonder how long we will go unregulated in the US. For now, it is pretty much anything goes, although that is changing in the larger cities and states.

California would throw aside the CPSC standards, which were modified with the 28mph exception. It looks like they would limit a 'bike' ebike to 20 mph. The S-Ped would go up to 28 mph, and it would not be a 'bike' so not for bike paths. The other stuff might take time to work out. The Class I is a PAS system, Class 2 is a throttle. This separation makes no real sense. The PAS bikes under 20 mph can go on bike paths, the throttle bikes in the 20 mph category can only go on paved paths.

It's really a mess because Federal land in Utah does not allow ebikes, treating them as motor vehicles. The Federal law, the CPSC regs, treat them as 'bikes'. So even if you settle out the road type ebikes, you are left with off-road issue, maybe even worse because you can't say there is access if a Federal agency says there is none.

I think the marketing focus is on getting the faster ebikes into the mix, with some legal status. This looks very dicey, if only because California may create some problems and tensions. I don't know if the people with 25 mph ebikes know they are no longer (under the proposed Cal rules) bikes, with access to bike paths. In fact, ebikes are not technically allowed on bike paths in California, but there must be zero enforcement. All the manufacturers want something.

I think the 'purists' like ebikes that are legally bikes. That status does not look so great. It will be interesting to see how Haibike, with a real stake in this S-Ped, proceeds. I wouldn't mind having access to the old Jeep roads, if someone could pull that off around here.

 

[PowerMe]

Ivars is a dreamer, who is bringing his dreams to reality. It is unfortunate that the campaign wasn’t marketed that way

That's the marketing of every crowd funding platform, be it KS or IGG. Some person or persons have a dream and need your help to make that dream a reality.... lather, rinse, repeat.

None of this marketing spin was invented with or by Sonders campaign, though people act like it was. There's been spin since the beginning, on every campaign.

 

[stevenast]

Nope.. He does not have 17% net margin; he might if he does not pay his Agency 2.0 bill!

I'm anticipating a slightly different path to millionaire than that "old fashioned" idea of paying bills and delivering as promised!

 

[EULITTLB]

That's the marketing of every crowd funding platform, be it KS or IGG. Some person or persons have a dream and need your help to make that dream a reality.... lather, rinse, repeat.

None of this marketing spin was invented with or by Sonders campaign, though people act like it was. There's been spin since the beginning, on every campaign.

I can stomach spin for sure, but blatantly exaggerated specs even to an amateur like me doing a moderate amount of research really riles me. There is a new VW advert in the UK, guy is buying a parachute and choosing between cheap and expensive models, the killer line being that you get what you pay for - I hope that the Sondors ebike is a decent enough bike for the money paid, but that is all it will be, no more. Ultimately the bike will never sell for $1299 and I am awaiting a sting in the tail to this campaign, like others.

 

[FTC Complaint]

That's the marketing of every crowd funding platform, be it KS or IGG. Some person or persons have a dream and need your help to make that dream a reality.... lather, rinse, repeat.

None of this marketing spin was invented with or by Sonders campaign, though people act like it was. There's been spin since the beginning, on every campaign.

Silicon Valley and venture funds are the only folks with a dream; and that dream is to take your money without providing much value in return.

 

[PowerMe]

Silicon Valley and venture funds are the only folks with a dream; and that dream is to take your money without providing much value in return.

Simply untrue.

 

[Ronny Cox]

howdy howdy everyone.

You guys have been quite busy in this thread. It was a very long read, glad I enjoy reading. Lots of info to take in for an old feeble brain like mine. I am kind of discouraged with this product. I was very excited when I first saw the bike, but the more I learn the more I realize, first, what I do not know about ebikes and why I do not want this Sondors bike.

I tried to cancel my order a long time ago in indiegogo but got declined. I then went to gosondors.com and talked to a chap call Nick@zendesk, but he was less than helpful. The next guy I mailed was a chap called Greg Dawson, he said he was managing the PR side of the sondors campaign Spec PR, I think he said. I asked to cancel my order, he said No. I asked again and he said he would ask Storm Sondors. Quite a while later he told me That my request was granted. I waited and waited and mailed again, and was told my request was in the cue.

I was too late to do a charge back with my credit card and reading everything you fine people are saying about this sondors bike I do not even want it. Now I seem to have lost my monies in this scam campaign. SPEC PR seems like they are lying to everyone, Greg Dawson seems like a Sondors shill, shucking and jiving his way through that campaign avoiding all my questions, I have not gotten a straight answer yet from gosondors, Spec PR or indiegogo.

Thank you for the excellent info all of you. I feel my trust was misplaced when I mistakenly bought a dream and got $hitty nightmare as a result, if I get anything.

I was told by Greg Dawson that my order was cancelled successfully and I should wait for my refund. I asked when and he commented in a week or so. It is the so that bothers me. It really sucks to be taken for a fool.

I read a news release by Greg Dawson..Spec PR, in it, it stated that the Sondors campaign was so successful that he sold more bikes than a large manufacturer sold in a year by a factor of 2 to 3 times. I find this very difficult to believe.

 

[stevenast]

I read a news release by Greg Dawson..Spec PR, in it, it stated that the Sondors campaign was so successful that he sold more bikes than a large manufacturer sold in a year by a factor of 2 to 3 times. I find this very difficult to believe.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like it hasn't been fun for you, but it helps people to be able to read what's happening.

As for Sondors outselling a large manufacturer, I guess it depends on your definition of "large manufacturer". E-bikes are a small market in the United States, about one half of one percent of bicycle sales.

However, the question is: when is a bike considered "sold"? Is it sold when the money is collected or, is it sold when the transaction is completed by the customer receiving the promised product?

 

[wa5]

Ronny, if you have all of your correspondence with Storm and Company, you might try talking to your Credit Card Provider. perhaps there is something they can do, after all, you have confirmation that they cancelled your order, its unfair you haven't received your refund.

Sorry you had such a lousy experience mate.

 

[FTC Complaint]

howdy howdy everyone.

You guys have been quite busy in this thread. It was a very long read, glad I enjoy reading. Lots of info to take in for an old feeble brain like mine. I am kind of discouraged with this product. I was very excited when I first saw the bike, but the more I learn the more I realize, first, what I do not know about ebikes and why I do not want this Sondors bike.

I tried to cancel my order a long time ago in indiegogo but got declined. I then went to gosondors.com and talked to a chap call Nick@zendesk, but he was less than helpful. The next guy I mailed was a chap called Greg Dawson, he said he was managing the PR side of the sondors campaign Spec PR, I think he said. I asked to cancel my order, he said No. I asked again and he said he would ask Storm Sondors. Quite a while later he told me That my request was granted. I waited and waited and mailed again, and was told my request was in the cue.

I was too late to do a charge back with my credit card and reading everything you fine people are saying about this sondors bike I do not even want it. Now I seem to have lost my monies in this scam campaign. SPEC PR seems like they are lying to everyone, Greg Dawson seems like a Sondors shill, shucking and jiving his way through that campaign avoiding all my questions, I have not gotten a straight answer yet from gosondors, Spec PR or indiegogo.

Thank you for the excellent info all of you. I feel my trust was misplaced when I mistakenly bought a dream and got $hitty nightmare as a result, if I get anything.

I was told by Greg Dawson that my order was cancelled successfully and I should wait for my refund. I asked when and he commented in a week or so. It is the so that bothers me. It really sucks to be taken for a fool.

I read a news release by Greg Dawson..Spec PR, in it, it stated that the Sondors campaign was so successful that he sold more bikes than a large manufacturer sold in a year by a factor of 2 to 3 times. I find this very difficult to believe.

Your refund request sounds like it was placed in "the circular file."

As you illustrated there is no support system, "or depth of support," to execute a simple refund for a product that was not as of yet delivered. There won't be any support for assembly questions, operational concerns, repairs, returns, injury recourse, and warranty.

There is no assurance of regulatory compliance, and testing.

The support I speak of is a necessary part of the product, the product being woefully incomplete without it. There is not enough money to provide said support.

Notify Sondors directly via a certified to his attorney, and then take Sondors and IGG to small claims. (This is an illustrative template letter you can use)

Storm Sondors
c/o Kent M. Walker
Lewis Kohn and Walker LLP
15030 Avenue of Science, Suite 201
San Diego, CA 92128

Sir,

I have requested a refund from your organization for a product which was purchased but has yet to be delivered. As admitted by you, your end product does not meet the specifications outlined in the offering. Additionally, you have failed to address concerns which are integral to the delivery of a complete and safe product, a product which has been adequately tested and conforms to all regulatory requirements. (Include If it applies; Contrary to your representations, I am advised by my DMV department that this product may not be legally operated in my state and locality) Please take notice and remedy by providing me with a refund in full within seven days of this notice.

Regards

A product is sold when you provide consideration in response to an offering, and that consideration is in turn accepted. In this case the identification of goods have been misrepresented (a difference between the offering and the delivery) thereby giving you cause to request cancellation the contract. The goods sold (or contract for) will not be delivered as specified.

If you live in CA consider filing in small claims against Storm and IGG. Cost them more money than the refund, and watch how fast that refund gets provided.

 

[JRA]

The support I speak of is a necessary part of the product, the product being woefully incomplete without it. There is not enough money to provide said support.

A few months ago when the campaign was in full swing the issue of customer support was the first thing that crossed my mind. No matter what kind of bike the Sondors turns out to be there will be people that have questions about their bike that with 7000+ bikes in the que would take a lot more than one person, even one with a comprehensive knowledge of the bike and its components, would be hard pressed to keep up with. A sea of frustrated customers is heading Storms way.

 

[Hurley]

" A sea of frustrated customers is heading Storms way."

Or put another way, a Storm of frustration by way of the sea is heading the customers way...

 

[Brambor]

Hello Ronny Cox, it is nice to see the word "shill" in your vocabulary.

Hope you get your refund.

howdy howdy everyone.

You guys have been quite busy in this thread. It was a very long read, glad I enjoy reading. Lots of info to take in for an old feeble brain like mine. I am kind of discouraged with this product. I was very excited when I first saw the bike, but the more I learn the more I realize, first, what I do not know about ebikes and why I do not want this Sondors bike.

I tried to cancel my order a long time ago in indiegogo but got declined. I then went to gosondors.com and talked to a chap call Nick@zendesk, but he was less than helpful. The next guy I mailed was a chap called Greg Dawson, he said he was managing the PR side of the sondors campaign Spec PR, I think he said. I asked to cancel my order, he said No. I asked again and he said he would ask Storm Sondors. Quite a while later he told me That my request was granted. I waited and waited and mailed again, and was told my request was in the cue.

I was too late to do a charge back with my credit card and reading everything you fine people are saying about this sondors bike I do not even want it. Now I seem to have lost my monies in this scam campaign. SPEC PR seems like they are lying to everyone, Greg Dawson seems like a Sondors shill, shucking and jiving his way through that campaign avoiding all my questions, I have not gotten a straight answer yet from gosondors, Spec PR or indiegogo.

Thank you for the excellent info all of you. I feel my trust was misplaced when I mistakenly bought a dream and got $hitty nightmare as a result, if I get anything.

I was told by Greg Dawson that my order was cancelled successfully and I should wait for my refund. I asked when and he commented in a week or so. It is the so that bothers me. It really sucks to be taken for a fool.

I read a news release by Greg Dawson..Spec PR, in it, it stated that the Sondors campaign was so successful that he sold more bikes than a large manufacturer sold in a year by a factor of 2 to 3 times. I find this very difficult to believe.

 

[Ronny Cox]

Your refund request sounds like it was placed in "the circular file."

As you illustrated there is no support system, "or depth of support," to execute a simple refund for a product that was not as of yet delivered. There won't be any support for assembly questions, operational concerns, repairs, returns, injury recourse, and warranty.

There is no assurance of regulatory compliance, and testing.

The support I speak of is a necessary part of the product, the product being woefully incomplete without it. There is not enough money to provide said support.

Notify Sondors directly and certified via his attorney, and then take Sondors and IGG to small claims. (This is an illustrative template letter you can use)

Storm Sondors
c/o Kent M. Walker
Lewis Kohn and Walker LLP
15030 Avenue of Science, Suite 201
San Diego, CA 92128

Sir,

I have requested a refund from your organization for a product which was purchased but has yet to be delivered. As admitted by you, your end product does not meet the specifications outlined in the offering. Additionally, you have failed to address concerns which are integral to the delivery of a complete and safe product, a product which has been adequately tested and conforms to all regulatory requirements. (Include If it applies; Contrary to your representations, I am advised by my DMV department that this product may not be legally operated in my state and locality) Please take notice and remedy by providing me with a refund in full within seven days of this notice.

Regards

A product is sold when you provide consideration in response to an offering. In this case the identification of goods have been misrepresented (a difference between the offering and the delivery) thereby giving you cause to request cancellation the contract. The goods sold (or contract for) will not be delivered as specified.

If you live in CA consider filing in small claims against Storm and IGG. Cost them more money than the refund, and watch how fast that refund gets provided.

Thank you. This whole offering seems very flawed in most ways. I will definitely contact Sondors attorney and see what happens. Guess it only takes but a few moments and a stamp or two. I will not give up mailing Greg Dawson about refund. I keep all my emails. Too bad we did not get any paperwork or purchase statement.