Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Just some personal comments here about my own experiences.
I lived in a small off-grid house for a couple of years. This was built around a very early system (dating from the 1980s). You could make it all work, but you needed to be hyper-aware of your electricity usage (I had nearly everything hooked up to power strips with timers on them, to eliminate ghost draws). Lights in closets and the bathroom were push-buttons that only kept the light on for twenty minutes. Lots of stuff was 12-volt to avoid the inverter, and if I would have kept on with that situation I would have wired a mess of USB outlets to avoid the disheartening efficiency hit you took from the inverter. Also, the whole thing was hopeless if you wanted a hair dryer or a toaster.
Fast forward to 2015. Due to the legalization of a certain euphoric green herb in Washington State, I came into contact to someone who had a warehouse full of solar panels that they weren't able to sell to grow operations and purchased 8kw worth for about 15 cents on the dollar. With a nice 8kw Outback Power Inverter and a few batteries I had a grid tie system up and running. The roof-mounted solar panels don't help me much in the winter (snow) but all in all the system works. I'm looking for a similar deal on batteries (had a great one lined up in 2020 but it fell through at the start of the pandemic). With the grid-tie my electric costs for the year are basically zero, I sell abundant surplus power in the sunny and warm summer months and draw on that in the dark, cold winter months.
My own belief based on current tech is that in most cases and most locations it is getting economically competitive to go off the grid, or will be in the not-so-near future. The more modern systems have much longer useful lifespans (probably 40 to 50 years is realistic) and are much easier to use. Longer-term for me I want to get rid of my propane boiler that gives me hot water and heats my house and replace that with an electric system, either powered by free sunlight or grid power when it is cloudy or dark. I'll probably run higher electric bills in the winter but they will still be less than the propane bills I've had the last couple of winters.
I lived in a small off-grid house for a couple of years. This was built around a very early system (dating from the 1980s). You could make it all work, but you needed to be hyper-aware of your electricity usage (I had nearly everything hooked up to power strips with timers on them, to eliminate ghost draws). Lights in closets and the bathroom were push-buttons that only kept the light on for twenty minutes. Lots of stuff was 12-volt to avoid the inverter, and if I would have kept on with that situation I would have wired a mess of USB outlets to avoid the disheartening efficiency hit you took from the inverter. Also, the whole thing was hopeless if you wanted a hair dryer or a toaster.
Fast forward to 2015. Due to the legalization of a certain euphoric green herb in Washington State, I came into contact to someone who had a warehouse full of solar panels that they weren't able to sell to grow operations and purchased 8kw worth for about 15 cents on the dollar. With a nice 8kw Outback Power Inverter and a few batteries I had a grid tie system up and running. The roof-mounted solar panels don't help me much in the winter (snow) but all in all the system works. I'm looking for a similar deal on batteries (had a great one lined up in 2020 but it fell through at the start of the pandemic). With the grid-tie my electric costs for the year are basically zero, I sell abundant surplus power in the sunny and warm summer months and draw on that in the dark, cold winter months.
My own belief based on current tech is that in most cases and most locations it is getting economically competitive to go off the grid, or will be in the not-so-near future. The more modern systems have much longer useful lifespans (probably 40 to 50 years is realistic) and are much easier to use. Longer-term for me I want to get rid of my propane boiler that gives me hot water and heats my house and replace that with an electric system, either powered by free sunlight or grid power when it is cloudy or dark. I'll probably run higher electric bills in the winter but they will still be less than the propane bills I've had the last couple of winters.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
A short article regarding expected lifespans and recycling issues for solar panels-
www.greenbiz.com
How long do solar panels last? Future of solar panel recycling
As solar panels reach the end of their life, the need for effective recycling solutions grows. Explore how the industry is preparing for the surge in solar waste.
www.greenbiz.com
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
2018 article! My 2008 panel and my 2021 panel are markedly different. 2021 being far less expensive and nearly twice as efficient.A short article regarding expected lifespans and recycling issues for solar panels-
How long do solar panels last? Future of solar panel recycling
As solar panels reach the end of their life, the need for effective recycling solutions grows. Explore how the industry is preparing for the surge in solar waste.
”According to a publication by International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA), more than 90 percent of the materials in typical photovoltaic solar panels — silicon, aluminum and glass — can be recycled and used again in the production of new solar panels.”
Sustainability through Solar Panel Recycling | SunPower Solar Blog
As solar power becomes an increasingly popular alternative energy source, the question arises about what will happen at the end of a solar panel's lifespan. Manager of Logistics and Sustainability, Casey Riscoe, discusses SunPower's solar panel recycling solutions.
us.sunpower.com
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Art Deco
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- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Since I'm looking at solar power again after installing a small rooftop array a decade ago, I've noticed a big change.
As with ebikes, China cornered the low end of the market on manufacturing solar panels, electronics, and batteries, and is moving strongly into the premium market with LG and Solar Edge.
American experts have long warned that the US will fall behind if Congress doesn't invest in a domestic supply chain .
The irony is that China did follow that advice. The state supports solar industries financially and legally - also encouraging the management to cut production costs by buying robots that run on the cheapest dirtiest coal fired power, using cheap (slave?) labor to work in abusive conditions, buying mineral rights in Africa and the South Seas and threatening war over the areas where it has business interests.
During Rockefeller and Getty's time a a century ago the USA would have done much the same thing since oil was the hot new technology then. England and Germany did the same in the time of the coal barons.
It looks like the USA is playing catch up in a global crisis and the climate bill is the biggest bet on renewables we've ever made... .
As with ebikes, China cornered the low end of the market on manufacturing solar panels, electronics, and batteries, and is moving strongly into the premium market with LG and Solar Edge.
American experts have long warned that the US will fall behind if Congress doesn't invest in a domestic supply chain .
The irony is that China did follow that advice. The state supports solar industries financially and legally - also encouraging the management to cut production costs by buying robots that run on the cheapest dirtiest coal fired power, using cheap (slave?) labor to work in abusive conditions, buying mineral rights in Africa and the South Seas and threatening war over the areas where it has business interests.
During Rockefeller and Getty's time a a century ago the USA would have done much the same thing since oil was the hot new technology then. England and Germany did the same in the time of the coal barons.
It looks like the USA is playing catch up in a global crisis and the climate bill is the biggest bet on renewables we've ever made... .
Art Deco
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- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Back to solar power. I am at 42 deg n latitude and plan to mount panels to match that tilt, no seasonal adjustment, facing south on sloped ground . The back of a 2 car garage (solar carport?) will be extended south to cover the sloped area with another array of 400 watt panels of similar physical size to my 250w panels ending several feet off the ground beside stairsteps. Big sheet of snow should slide down and pile up where I can shovel it, not stay on the roof where I can`t.
One February snowfall wiped my rooftop system out for the whole month ... zero production.
As I mentioned in @Solarcabin thread the first objective for me is running hot and cold water, especially in winter when the storms take out power here. I can put frozen food outside in a cooler very safely but won`t take cold showers or stop flushing toilets for multi day outages. Nope.
Once I realized how much power my deep well pump and water heater required, I quit worrying about the power running a fridge and freezer take anyway. Surge power when the pump kicks on can be thousands of watts ( but for less than a minute ) vs. hundreds for a fridge.
One February snowfall wiped my rooftop system out for the whole month ... zero production.
As I mentioned in @Solarcabin thread the first objective for me is running hot and cold water, especially in winter when the storms take out power here. I can put frozen food outside in a cooler very safely but won`t take cold showers or stop flushing toilets for multi day outages. Nope.
Once I realized how much power my deep well pump and water heater required, I quit worrying about the power running a fridge and freezer take anyway. Surge power when the pump kicks on can be thousands of watts ( but for less than a minute ) vs. hundreds for a fridge.
Art Deco
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
I think the combination of high energy prices and really very sudden improvements to the technology over the last decade have made it much easier, but it is still an infant industry with lots of improving to do. Today`s panels and inverters are perhaps twice the power per dollar they were a decade ago, while batteries are improving for about the first time since Edison .
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Waiting on two bids from the two purported best sales and installation shops. Kind of daunting, confusing array of choices, but thankfully not as crazy as our eBike choices. Still…
Base on real use, through some brands to look for and perhaps to avoid.
We blew it off at first as we’ll not see a return but I’ll take my dirt nap with a slightly bigger smile.
View attachment 133050
Base on real use, through some brands to look for and perhaps to avoid.
We blew it off at first as we’ll not see a return but I’ll take my dirt nap with a slightly bigger smile.
View attachment 133050
That war time effort in the 1940s has left some horrendous pollution problems. We have the Hanford area in our state. Can we have speed with caution?Hopefully the money being spent here (and hopefully more to come) has some true impact on this discussion.
If this was approached as a war time effort... Imagine where we could be in 10 years.
Senate Dems pass long-awaited climate, tax and health care bill
The majority party guided the legislation they'd labored over for more than a year through a 15-hour vote-a-rama, a last-minute snag with Sen. Kyrsten Sinema and several rules challenges.www.politico.com
Gionnirocket
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- Y. O.
Well what I mean by war time effort is everyone on board. And since not actually at war with lives on the line every day, I think it could be done with more forethought and caution.
I'm a Debby Downer. I can't see the people in the USA pulling together for anything. We have masters of spin who have developed a cult. Sad times.
kevinmccune
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- USA
What gets Me when some brag about how much they save and how cheap it is, then have to go to Neighbors to take a bath and do the laundry, I guess they use a can for the other duties.Great point, though I would need something substantially bigger than 8x8.
If I were younger and could handle stairs better, these "tiny houses" being advertised look like a fun challenge. Same with the DIY sheds.
kevinmccune
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- USA
You back on your feet AD?
kevinmccune
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- USA
Famine, war, high energy prices go hand in hand, get prepared there is probably going to be a famine within the next 5 years.
kevinmccune
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- USA
I am sorry I agree unless you have the wealth of Amory Lovins.
kevinmccune
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- USA
A cistern and 12 volt water pump would handle your non potable needs handily, some of my house designs incorporated a huge water tank on the north wall (buried of course another good use for water as a "thermal flywheel" of course wifey wouldn't hear to it, When I was growing up we had a 60 amp service with just 3 circuits activated(4 amps) and for the first years wood heat, carrying and hauling water, even had a gas cookstove later on, when the power was out we scarcely noticed lit a lantern or candle went to bed early( w didn't have a bathroom during those bucolic days, I look on it as my "2.5 world" childhood. Later on when everybody could get a job things rapidly improved- in those days you could hardly buy a minimum wage job, nowadays people will not work for $25 an hour, I just shake my head.
Art Deco
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- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Thanks. Good to be back.
Art Deco
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- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
The electricity is what I think of as the AC DC issue , and we seem to be using the wrong mix, maybe we need more low voltage applications like pumps and fans not more high voltage applications like a/c for apartments or flats. 12 volt is occasionally impressive, but just like ebikes run better at 48 volt as do appliances built for low voltage. Up to maybe 48 volts is low voltage' in the USA.
AHicks
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- USA
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- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
A thought for you to mess with. It's about amperage. As voltage goes up, amperage (including required wire sizes) goes down. When talking about covering longer distances, maybe the distance to a well pump for instance, going to 220v or so often pays off.
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