Solar Powered Homes

[pmcdonald]

2 issues. First, you lay out the money to install a solar system. Everything done, you're a little poorer, but you're off grid. Mission accomplished, YAY! My first issue - for how long? Have you looked into the life expectancy of these components?

2nd issue. The environmental piece. Have you looked into what is involved in the manf. of these components? From obtaining the raw materials to producing the finished product? YUK! Now you've built it and have it in service, and times up. It quits and needs to be replaced. Not only must you repeat the above processes, you need to dispose of the timed out equipment - more YUK!

About 3 years to offset the carbon cost of manufacture. Panels generally have a 15-25 year lifespan, with some emerging products boasting a 40 year lifespan. The inverters we looked at had 10 year warranties. Batteries still aren't competitive for most households, but in some cases may be more cost effective than the alternative of running power over distance (ie. Rural or remote properties and communities).

The ethical point is a good one, and I think applies to any product we purchase or consume. Are we sure our coal, gas or lithium isn't produced by countries subjugating their own or neighboring peoples? (Possibly less likely at this particular geopolitical moment.) How about that our steel isn't mined by corporations who don't think twice about leveling a 46,000 year old sacred site? Point is we should do our due diligence and hold our suppliers and corporations to a high standard. Activist shareholding has really started to change this space in recent years but the drive for lower production costs and higher dividends will be a continual tension.

Nuclear can be reasonably competitive if the plant already exists. Bear in mind many of the West's reactors are over 30 years old and approaching EOL. Factor in costs and lead time for new plants and forget about it, not even vaguely competitive with existing solar/wind/storage solutions.

This LCOE measurement in the graph below isn't without issues (what metric is?), but does point to the direction of the industry:

 

[Art Deco]

Cheap shot, if there was one, completely unintentional.

In use now in Europe....

Probably in China as well. And undoubtedly in the tax havens and rich tourist cities of the east. But the really advanced stuff isn't profitable enough for most of us to buy, and won't be for decades. Solar works now, just not really well.

 

[pmcdonald]

@Art Deco have you looked at V2H electric cars? Not an inexpensive option, but several times the storage capacity of Powerwalls, etc. Charge by day, power by night, top up at a supermarket or public station if a boost is needed.

TBH I haven't looked at the economics or load capacity of that route. Watch this space though - it has the potential to give households everywhere some grid independence.

I'm also looking forward to seeing emerging battery technologies compete against lithium over the decade ahead.

 

[Art Deco]

There are many kinds of lithium batteries today, and some very slick electronics to keep them charged up. This is an example from a company I'd never heard of ... EG4.

Signature Solar

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

Maybe 2 or $3000 in a battery and all the electronics from some such company, another $2,000 for a generator, and twice that much ( 5 or $6000) for midrange panels and mounts seems like it buys a lot of resilience today, but it won't run your whole house all season.

 

[Art Deco]

@Art Deco have you looked at V2H electric cars? Not an inexpensive option, but several times the storage capacity of Powerwalls, etc. Charge by day, power by night, top up at a supermarket or public station if a boost is needed.

TBH I haven't looked at the economics or load capacity of that route. Watch this space though - it has the potential to give households everywhere some grid independence.

I'm also looking forward to seeing emerging battery technologies compete against lithium over the decade ahead.

V2H is a new TLA (three letter acronym) to me, although I heard that you can plug into the F150 Lightning battery pack and use that as backup power for your house. Use a $50K mobil battery for stationary backup power? I wonder how long a pair of Como batteries could run my kitchen?

 

[PDoz]

Damn, I bought my solar panels in 2010 .....and here I was feeling smug that I haven't paid an electricity bill since.

Interesting to see geothermal coming down - there are potential identified sites in a nearby valley that are close to coal burning power stations . I'd love to see the transmission infrastructure handed over !!!

BTW - on the ethical side- that sounds like a description of us in Australia - steel mined after destroying sacred sites, segregation etc.

 

[PDoz]

V2H is a new TLA (three letter acronym) to me, although I heard that you can plug into the F150 Lightning battery pack and use that as backup power for your house. Use a $50K mobil battery for stationary backup power? I wonder how long a pair of Como batteries could run my kitchen?

It's promising technology given the vehicle needs crazy large batteries for infrequent longer trips , so why not use it to buffer the system the rest of the time.

Unfortunately, in Australia the vehicle to home / grid chargers / inverters aren't easilly available ( only recently approved and long wait lists) . I'd consider having something like a nissan leaf plugged into the solar carport as the house battery / occasional long trip vehicle.

 

[Art Deco]

Damn, I bought my solar panels in 2010 .....and here I was feeling smug that I haven't paid an electricity bill since.

Interesting to see geothermal coming down - there are potential identified sites in a nearby valley that are close to coal burning power stations . I'd love to see the transmission infrastructure handed over !!!

BTW - on the ethical side- that sounds like a description of us in Australia - steel mined after destroying sacred sites, segregation etc.

So you eliminated your whole electric bill for the last decade?

I'm guessing that solar systems ( residential at least) have hit the bottom of the price curve for installed systems. Wholesale wind and solar probably will still get cheaper yet for a while.

And in the USA ... mining, drilling, fracking, and dumping on native American lands continues. Ethics be dammed when land with minerals is owned by poor people, no matter their skin color.
Edit @PDoz How big is your system ? Number/wattage of panels, batteries, and so on?
Lots more sun in most of Australia than here in rainy/cloudy central Pennsylvania ... but stricter electrical/fire codes require a professional installation AFAIK.

 

[AHicks]

@pmcdonald,
Love the chart, but curious what costs the one you posted represent? Not to be argumentative, just curious if the source of the chart defines exactly what cost are illustrated? Wind for instance, does it include the cost to manf., maintain during it's life cycle, AND recycle afterward (I understand those giant blades are an issue when considering how to recycle)? Geothermal, the price of original materials to assemble, maintenance costs while in service, etc, etc. -Al

 

[AHicks]

Probably in China as well. And undoubtedly in the tax havens and rich tourist cities of the east. But the really advanced stuff isn't profitable enough for most of us to buy, and won't be for decades. Solar works now, just not really well.

Anything is possible, but I don't know that nuclear will ever be scaled down far enough to be practical for personal use (or even something like a large ranch for example). I think that will always be something aimed at municipalities.

 

[Art Deco]

Let it be.
I got solar panels and batteries for my house and I don't understand how it works.
As far as I'm concerned my ebikes are charged by solar. Solar is plenty full here.
Go discuss throttles
Here's a few pictures of linear throttle that I tested today.
My GF dragged me by my hand and went to Costco. And I got on this throttle only. cart/wagon
Point being. Do you charge your batteries from solar?

Looks like substantial sized inverters. Do you know how many panels you have?

 

[duggie]

Well, i used to live on a boat, totally off grid, the year through. I know about solar and generators. I left the boat and went to a p[lace I have and applied what i had learnt, so I built an 8ftx8ftx8ft cabin, half glazed, and very well insulated, inside my workshop room which could never get warm in winter, unless masses of energy for hours. Well, now i can heat the place, my snug, to t-shirt temp for ......3p per hour, yes three pence, that's about 2 US cents per hour. So, with the knowledge gained from the damned hard off grid living, I can use grid power very much to my advantage.

 

[AHicks]

Well, i used to live on a boat, totally off grid, the year through. I know about solar and generators. I left the boat and went to a p[lace I have and applied what i had learnt, so I built an 8ftx8ftx8ft cabin, half glazed, and very well insulated, inside my workshop room which could never get warm in winter, unless masses of energy for hours. Well, now i can heat the place, my snug, to t-shirt temp for ......3p per hour, yes three pence, that's about 2 US cents per hour. So, with the knowledge gained from the damned hard off grid living, I can use grid power very much to my advantage.

Great point, though I would need something substantially bigger than 8x8.

If I were younger and could handle stairs better, these "tiny houses" being advertised look like a fun challenge. Same with the DIY sheds.

 

[Art Deco]

Well, i used to live on a boat, totally off grid, the year through. I know about solar and generators. I left the boat and went to a p[lace I have and applied what i had learnt, so I built an 8ftx8ftx8ft cabin, half glazed, and very well insulated, inside my workshop room which could never get warm in winter, unless masses of energy for hours. Well, now i can heat the place, my snug, to t-shirt temp for ......3p per hour, yes three pence, that's about 2 US cents per hour. So, with the knowledge gained from the damned hard off grid living, I can use grid power very much to my advantage.

Yes, houseboats are probably another place where solar energy is almost a no brainer ...to run the galley, a watermaker, and maybe an air conditioner would be a challenge without shore power.
I have never done that, and wonder about panels turning into sails when the wind blows.

 

[Art Deco]

Actually I was wondering about any solar panels becoming a sail when the wind blows. Ground mounts seem most susceptible, but I have seen roof mounts with panels sticking way up above the roof line, and wonder how they hang on in severe winds.
Anyway I am planning two arrays of 9 panels each, instead of just one big array of 18 panels for ease of building and better shade- the panels shade the bare exposed pato or deck below them. And we could really use some shade.

 

[Mulezen]

Solar and wind and other approaches (geo-thermal, tidal, storage approaches) are improving every day…and with AI/computing power growth are developing ever more efficient materials. I read some months ago about vertical wind generating walls (highway energy recapture) and now this about vertical solar installations.

New Research Says Vertical Solar Panels Have Improved Performance

Researchers in Germany claim that vertical solar panels can produce electricity over more hours of the day.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Point already made above, but it’s good to see you back in action, Art!

 

[Art Deco]

Lots of demand for vertical mounts in the cities ,,, apartment blocks and skyscrapers.

 

[mschwett]

@pmcdonald,
Love the chart, but curious what costs the one you posted represent? Not to be argumentative, just curious if the source of the chart defines exactly what cost are illustrated? Wind for instance, does it include the cost to manf., maintain during it's life cycle, AND recycle afterward (I understand those giant blades are an issue when considering how to recycle)? Geothermal, the price of original materials to assemble, maintenance costs while in service, etc, etc. -Al

energy costs in the united states are typically on the open market, which means someone is making money (or at least breaking even) supplying said energy. wouldn’t be a very good business model if you had to go bankrupt or something every time an asset had to be replaced.

while i’ll agree with you that life cycle cost analysis (financial and environmental) has a ways to go, the vast majority of “but what about …” questions and arguments about solar, wind, geo, and other renewables are driven by people clinging to fossil fuels and completely ignoring the complete costs of those systems, cradle to grave. except with fossil fuels it’s quite literally the grave of hundreds and thousands of people!

as the technology improves, we’re discovering that these things last a lot longer than estimated. depending on the climate and density, with e-bikes, solar, a modest amount of storage (this is the weakest piece of the puzzle IMO), good building design and fixture selection, it would not be hard to live a comfortable lifestyle completely off the grid.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Hopefully the money being spent here (and hopefully more to come) has some true impact on this discussion.

Senate Dems pass long-awaited climate, tax and health care bill

The majority party guided the legislation they'd labored over for more than a year through a 15-hour vote-a-rama, a last-minute snag with Sen. Kyrsten Sinema and several rules challenges.

www.politico.com

If this was approached as a war time effort... Imagine where we could be in 10 years.