Say Hello To Storm

[roshan]

This is just my comment about the Juggernaut, and not meant to be a knock, or try to start any trouble. Just my honest feeling for myself.
I really don't see much difference between it and dozens of other Fat bikes, and I never wanted one anyway, so I wasn't even considering one.

The biggest difference is that there's no other mid-drive fat bike out in the market for under $3500. Try a little Google search.

The reason for the difference is, the Storm has curb appeal, the juggernaut doesn't. A huge styling que for the Storm is the frame covers. They separate it from all others, including the juggernaut.

Yes, they did. The Juggernaut wasn't designed to stand out saying "ebike alert!!". Instead, the Juggernaut was designed to be quite stealth. I've been riding the many prototypes for the Juggernaut for about a year now. Every biker I pass just thinks I have some gigantic thighs or calves or something. They don't notice it's an electric bike unless they are told so. Why is this: 1. The motor is super quiet. 2. The battery looks like some kind of a water bottle.

Another problem for the Juggernaut for my purposes is it has a smaller V than the Storm frame. I like a big V because I can stuff more battery's in there later, and the frame covers will hide them.

The reason Juggernaut frame was designed the way it is is because the frame is designed for both men and women from 5" tall to 6"4'. Try getting a short lady to ride the Storm.

The rest is just nit picky ecstatic's. The color pops on the Storm, but in comparison the Juggernaut, it just there. The Juggernaut's straight tube frame isn't quite as attractive to my eye as the Storm's

If you look at the comments section of the Storm - apart from all the bashing and heated speculations, you'll see a lot of people yelling they want black. Not many people enjoy riding a single speed yellow fat bike on the street. When choosing colors for the Juggernaut, over 1000 people were surveyed. Matt black stood out with votes much more than all other options combined.

The only thing the Juggernaut has going for it is the gears, but they don't make that much difference to me. If I wanted gears I'd get a Schlumpf 2 Speed BB.

I think you don't really know why the mid motor with gears is a big deal. I'll try to break it up for you:
1. With a hub motor, no matter how many gears you have - Schlumpf or just regular rear gears, your motor can't use them. The motor is always running on 1 gear (the gear ratio depends on the size of the wheel). Try going uphill for 15 mins straight and you'll see all the problems prop up - overheated motor, burnt controller, drained battery.
- With a mid motor, you use the gears of your bike as a transmission for the motor. When you're going up hill, switch to a lower gear and the motor buzzes along while being really cool. So with the mid motor the gears are not just for your feet but also for the motor.

If you do a cost comparison of a Bafang BBS02 motor with any other Hub motor, you'll see why the Juggernaut and the Stunner are some crazy good deals. Hope this helps!

 

[roshan]

Agreed. Hub motors on fat bikes is where its at. The Bafang mid drive has gobs of power but the amount of shifting required for off road riding makes the Bafang mid drive a horrible experience on a fat bike. The Bosch is far superior but will never be a powerhouse.

Hi Gus, have you ridden a mid-motored Juggernaut? It's a lot of fun! The shifting is not at all a problem if you use good components like the Alivio or XT.

 

[Gus]

Hi Gus, have you ridden a mid-motored Juggernaut? It's a lot of fun! The shifting is not at all a problem if you use good components like the Alivio or XT.

Yep. It was not a Juggernaut but a modified fat bike with the BB shaved down to 73mm. I also own the BBS02 installed on a non-fat bike and own a fat bike without a motor.

I mainly ride my fat bike on singletrack. On singletrack, there is a lot of shifting, which is a problem for the Bafang. The 'brake-clutch' shift method and power response time just degraded the fun factor. The fat bike in question had SRAM x5 components. For this application, a hub motor would be better.

That said, outside of how I ride my fat bike it was an excellent combination simply because the BBS02 is a torque fest. Riding in snow, winter commuting, green ways, trail riding its a great combination.

Hell, right now my my non-fat tires can't get through the crusty, deep, rutted snow covered trails. My fat bike can though but it took me 3 times as long to get to work. So I'm trying to figure out how to get my BBS02 installed on my fat bike just so I can continue to ride to work through the current snow fest. I'm aware of California ebike's Bafang modification kit but its insanely overpriced, so that is not an option. In hindsight, maybe I should have just bought the juggernaut. D'oh!

 

[George S.]

The biggest difference is that there's no other mid-drive fat bike out in the market for under $3500. Try a little Google search.



Yes, they did. The Juggernaut wasn't designed to stand out saying "ebike alert!!". Instead, the Juggernaut was designed to be quite stealth. I've been riding the many prototypes for the Juggernaut for about a year now. Every biker I pass just thinks I have some gigantic thighs or calves or something. They don't notice it's an electric bike unless they are told so. Why is this: 1. The motor is super quiet. 2. The battery looks like some kind of a water bottle.


The reason Juggernaut frame was designed the way it is is because the frame is designed for both men and women from 5" tall to 6"4'. Try getting a short lady to ride the Storm.


If you look at the comments section of the Storm - apart from all the bashing and heated speculations, you'll see a lot of people yelling they want black. Not many people enjoy riding a single speed yellow fat bike on the street. When choosing colors for the Juggernaut, over 1000 people were surveyed. Matt black stood out with votes much more than all other options combined.


I think you don't really know why the mid motor with gears is a big deal. I'll try to break it up for you:
1. With a hub motor, no matter how many gears you have - Schlumpf or just regular rear gears, your motor can't use them. The motor is always running on 1 gear (the gear ratio depends on the size of the wheel). Try going uphill for 15 mins straight and you'll see all the problems prop up - overheated motor, burnt controller, drained battery.
- With a mid motor, you use the gears of your bike as a transmission for the motor. When you're going up hill, switch to a lower gear and the motor buzzes along while being really cool. So with the mid motor the gears are not just for your feet but also for the motor.

If you do a cost comparison of a Bafang BBS02 motor with any other Hub motor, you'll see why the Juggernaut and the Stunner are some crazy good deals. Hope this helps!

Hi,

Going by what Len posted:

"One of our bike suppliers Roshan (Biktrix Juggernaut) "

You are basically the Juggernaut and the Stunner?

I think a lot of people believe that the old model, basically high prices at bike shops, is not enough. We have companies bringing in ebikes from China, so they are importers. They may tweak designs and then they generally offer a warranty.

It's hard not to notice you have swapped out KS for Indiegogo. Of all the ebike offering on KS, your results really shine. Early delivery. No obvious problems. But, you have walked across the street.

I also wonder why you are not establishing the brand in a more traditional way. The impression I get is that these funding sites, really developmental sites, may offer less than other ways of selling a bike. For example, some people say Storm (the guy) will just order bikes from China and then they will be shipped off the dock. Technically, or legally, Storm/Sondo will not import bikes, or own the bikes, prior to their being shipped off to customers. That matters in the sense that there may be no warranty.

Pedego has recalled something like 3,000 batteries, which it will replace. I'm thinking you guys can never do anything like that. What would we really get, and what would our relationship be to any company that is out there, maybe wholesaling Jugs?

But that aside, I hope we get some prices that reflect the cost of parts coming out of China. The BBS02 has been discussed to death here, most favorably. It's hard to compare it to Bosch, just because of price. If you can pull this off, it's impressive. And I'm impressed about your specs versus the Sondo. I'd have spent that $300.

The price of the Juggernaut versus the Stunner is a little stunning. Any comparison?

Thanks

 

[roshan]

Hi,

Going by what Len posted:

"One of our bike suppliers Roshan (Biktrix Juggernaut) "

You are basically the Juggernaut and the Stunner?

That would be me. *sigh*

I think a lot of people believe that the old model, basically high prices at bike shops, is not enough. We have companies bringing in ebikes from China, so they are importers. They may tweak designs and then they generally offer a warranty.

It's hard not to notice you have swapped out KS for Indiegogo. Of all the ebike offering on KS, your results really shine. Early delivery. No obvious problems. But, you have walked across the street.

Indiegogo is what we're considering. It's not too final yet, but that's what we're leaning toward. The reason for this is:
1. KS only allows CAD funding - the falling CAD is really kicking our butts. We got burned with the Juggernaut because of this.
2. KS took 15 business days to pay us. That was really long - especially when we have ambitious delivery schedules

I also wonder why you are not establishing the brand in a more traditional way. The impression I get is that these funding sites, really developmental sites, may offer less than other ways of selling a bike. For example, some people say Storm (the guy) will just order bikes from China and then they will be shipped off the dock. Technically, or legally, Storm/Sondo will not import bikes, or own the bikes, prior to their being shipped off to customers. That matters in the sense that there may be no warranty.

You've hit the nail on the head. I am 99% sure that Storm/Sondo will just take the money to his Chinese manufacturers and let them handle everything else. Yes, NO warranty of course.

Pedego has recalled something like 3,000 batteries, which it will replace. I'm thinking you guys can never do anything like that. What would we really get, and what would our relationship be to any company that is out there, maybe wholesaling Jugs?

If Pedego's battery supplier covers his end of the warranty claim the 3000 batteries could be easily replaced. It's a whole different story if Pedego screwed up and had to pay for the batteries themselves. A mistake like that is expensive enough to kill a company.

But that aside, I hope we get some prices that reflect the cost of parts coming out of China. The BBS02 has been discussed to death here, most favorably. It's hard to compare it to Bosch, just because of price. If you can pull this off, it's impressive. And I'm impressed about your specs versus the Sondo. I'd have spent that $300.

Thank you. We are still working out to see if it's worthwhile doing.

The price of the Juggernaut versus the Stunner is a little stunning. Any comparison?
Thanks

We did send out a comparison table to all the Juggernaut supporters. They were impressed. In fact, a few of them want to also get the Stunner just to support us again! I will share this in due time once the Stunner project gets a final go.

 

[roshan]

Yep. It was not a Juggernaut but a modified fat bike with the BB shaved down to 73mm. I also own the BBS02 installed on a non-fat bike and own a fat bike without a motor.

You are brave. I would not dare

I mainly ride my fat bike on singletrack. On singletrack, there is a lot of shifting, which is a problem for the Bafang. The 'brake-clutch' shift method and power response time just degraded the fun factor. The fat bike in question had SRAM x5 components. For this application, a hub motor would be better.

I think a Nuvinvi would have worked best for you. Then again, they don't have a 170mm version. Darn.

That said, outside of how I ride my fat bike it was an excellent combination simply because the BBS02 is a torque fest. Riding in snow, winter commuting, green ways, trail riding its a great combination.

Couldn't agree more. Also, climbing up the stairs with the Juggernaut is way easier than a rear/front heavy bike.

Hell, right now my my non-fat tires can't get through the crusty, deep, rutted snow covered trails. My fat bike can though but it took me 3 times as long to get to work. So I'm trying to figure out how to get my BBS02 installed on my fat bike just so I can continue to ride to work through the current snow fest. I'm aware of California ebike's Bafang modification kit but its insanely overpriced, so that is not an option. In hindsight, maybe I should have just bought the juggernaut. D'oh!

I live in Saskatchewan. We get a dump of snow every day. I've tried riding regular MTB, e-MTB, Full suspension MTB. Nothing like an e-fatty.

 

[biknut]

@biknut said:

I'm pretty sure Pedago



Now, del Aguila is a founder of Prodeco Tech, not Pedego (and not Pedago). You are kind of libeling Pedego, by saying they have done permanent damage to their brand.

https://www.prodecotech.com/history/

We're just waiting to see what Sondo delivers. I hope it is everything that you and the folks on the forums hope it is. That's all that matters now. They will show a product on Sunday, people will record what they see, and then we will see what people actually get in May. Why sweat it.

My bad George, I meant to be saying Prodeco. So for as I know Pedago has stayed out of it.

 

[George S.]

No problem. Roshan answered my questions on how these campaigns will work, and it's clear how it can be done. It's just an option for people and I hope the Sondors makes the owners happy.

Biktrix is a pretty good story, however they end up selling them:

http://engineering.usask.ca

 

[Ann M.]

Curious, Biktrix is essentially a kit on a fat tire bike and like the Storm/Sonders program nothing about support. Roshan may be misunderstanding what happens at the Asian plants. You buy FOB; freight on board; that means once its in a container, on a ship its the buyer's responsibility to deal with not the manufacturer's. At Interbike I've trolled the various Asian manufacturers showing product and looking for distributors since they cannot sell in bulk without some US distributor to manage the product, parts, warranty,etc. Storm has his name on the bike then it is his business entities that will be responsible for it, not a Chinese manufacturing plant.

The biggest difference is that there's no other mid-drive fat bike out in the market for under $3500. Try a little Google search.


I think you don't really know why the mid motor with gears is a big deal. I'll try to break it up for you:
1. With a hub motor, no matter how many gears you have - Schlumpf or just regular rear gears, your motor can't use them. The motor is always running on 1 gear (the gear ratio depends on the size of the wheel). Try going uphill for 15 mins straight and you'll see all the problems prop up - overheated motor, burnt controller, drained battery.
- With a mid motor, you use the gears of your bike as a transmission for the motor. When you're going up hill, switch to a lower gear and the motor buzzes along while being really cool. So with the mid motor the gears are not just for your feet but also for the motor.

If you do a cost comparison of a Bafang BBS02 motor with any other Hub motor, you'll see why the Juggernaut and the Stunner are some crazy good deals. Hope this helps!

In this case, there is a misunderstanding of the difference between internally geared and non geared brushless hub motors. The geared hub motors may not be as efficient as some mid drives, but they are not quite as bad as described.

 

[JoePah]

Curious, Biktrix is essentially a kit on a fat tire bike and like the Storm/Sonders program nothing about support. Roshan may be misunderstanding what happens at the Asian plants. You buy FOB; freight on board; that means once its in a container, on a ship its the buyer's responsibility to deal with not the manufacturer's. At Interbike I've trolled the various Asian manufacturers showing product and looking for distributors since they cannot sell in bulk without some US distributor to manage the product, parts, warranty,etc. Storm has his name on the bike then it is his business entities that will be responsible for it, not a Chinese manufacturing plant.


In this case, there is a misunderstanding of the difference between internally geared and non geared brushless hub motors. The geared hub motors may not be as efficient as some mid drives, but they are not quite as bad as described.

Hope Roshan is successful.. Looks like a very competitive price point at $799 for a better equipped fat bike.

BTW I tried riding a fatbike again last weekend.. Hated it! lol

 

[biknut]

Hope Roshan is successful.. Looks like a very competitive price point at $799 for a better equipped fat bike.

BTW I tried riding a fatbike again last weekend.. Hated it! lol

Without a motor I don't blame you.

 

[biknut]

Gears are nice when all you got is low power. Power it up enough and you don't need no stikin gears. They just slow you down. I raced an OptiBike M5. He had game for about 3 feet, and then he has to shift gear. I never saw him again after that

 

[George S.]

Ann M said

Curious, Biktrix is essentially a kit on a fat tire bike and like the Storm/Sonders program nothing about support. Roshan may be misunderstanding what happens at the Asian plants. You buy FOB; freight on board; that means once its in a container, on a ship its the buyer's responsibility to deal with not the manufacturer's. At Interbike I've trolled the various Asian manufacturers showing product and looking for distributors since they cannot sell in bulk without some US distributor to manage the product, parts, warranty,etc. Storm has his name on the bike then it is his business entities that will be responsible for it, not a Chinese manufacturing plant.

Roshan said:

You've hit the nail on the head. I am 99% sure that Storm/Sondo will just take the money to his Chinese manufacturers and let them handle everything else. Yes, NO warranty of course.


As I read it, they are cutting all that out of what you might call the selling process. I asked Roshan if they would ever take title to the bikes. He indicated this would be a direct transfer from a Chinese factory to the owners. Now, legally, can Sondors do this? My guess is the manufacturers of higher priced ebikes and dealers will force the issue, go to court and claim Sondors is 'constructively' the importer or manufacturer, and demand Sondors do the normal management things.

If you play out the scenarios, it could be a real mess. Batteries that catch fire? Frames that break? On the other hand, if the rather upscale bike dealers and manufacturers are seen to 'crush' Storm and his basic bike for the people, that' a public relations disaster.

I'll say it again: You guys in the industry could have tried harder to accommodate the low end of the market. If you can pool money, buy bikes in China, and get a 'kit' bike at a wholesale price, and assembled, it sounds pretty good. I just don't know how the legal stuff will play out. The 6,000 bikes is a problem. We're big on product liability in this country. Storm (the man) wants to cut this out of the picture, get around it.

 

[Gus]

Isn't this thing basically the juggernaut/stunner?

I think with enough volume, profits are there for just about anyone importing direct from China.

Thats why I've just started working diligently with China to develop 'The Gus.' A 750w mid drive motor with shift sensing technology, belt drive, nuvinci hub, cell phone connectivity, 48v 18 ah 25r Samsung cells battery integrated into the downtube, 135mm front/170mm rear fat bike frame, hydraulic disc brakes, that comes with fat tires for the winter and 29er wheels for the summer. The all around, maintence free, all season commuting machine for $250 on Indiegogo.

My devious plot is to charge $3500 for shipping.

 

[biknut]

The reason it won't sell isn't the price. It's because it looks like granddads eBike. This new bike has pizazz. There isn't enough difference in the rest of the bike to matter much.

 

[JoePah]

Should be an interesting day for Sondors... Hope the demo day attendees are polite and reasonable!

Was pleasantly surprised that this startup is meeting the customers during the fundraising period... hope they have an ebike that satisfies them.. Otherwise a lot of people may start trying for a refund!

 

[Gus]

I just received the 1st prototype of "The Gus" from China. She's a beaut clark!

Yes, to those with a keen eye, that is a He-Man Masters of the Universe lunch box mounted to the frame. It not only stores the battery but also your snacks!
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

I also took it out and shot a promo video, so everyone knows what to expect. I think you'll find, its the Lamborghini of Bicycles. Indiegogo campaign coming soon! Demo rides coming soon! Lawsuit from Breaking Bad pending!

 

[George S.]

No Gus, No Glory...

 

[Admin]

I may get some one on one time with Storm Sonders tomorrow guys, are there any questions you'd like me to ask (politely) or any special tests with the bike? My time will be limited so range test is probably out this time but weight and a closer look at all components seems reasonable. Thanks in advance...

ps. I hope the new ad banners here don't bother you too much and I'm open to feedback as always. I've done my best to keep them muted and out of the way while acknowledging the support that keeps EBR and these forums online from brands I've vetted

 

[biknut]

I may get some one on one time with Storm Sonders tomorrow guys, are there any questions you'd like me to ask (politely) or any special tests with the bike? My time will be limited so range test is probably out this time but weight and a closer look at all components seems reasonable. Thanks in advance...

ps. I hope the new ad banners here don't bother you too much and I'm open to feedback as always. I've done my best to keep them muted and out of the way while acknowledging the support that keeps EBR and these forums online from brands I've vetted

You should ask him how long his bike has been in development, since he first had his accident?
Now that his success has been so overwhelming, has that changed his plans for the future?
Will there be a warranty?
What size of market does he foresee moving forward?
Will he have another offer like this one in the future?
How will the shipping be handled?
Has he ever heard of his biggest supporter, biknut

This interview could be the most important one you've ever done in your life. Don't blow it.