Rohloff Speed hubs on E-bikes (Mechanical and E-14) - Discussion

[Alaskan]

I am happy that you love Bosch and ordered the R&M. The quality is usually great.

Bosch versus Bafang is a big conversation. Cant get away from it.
I am convinced that Bafang Ultra is the way forward for new gen ebikes. The future is here!

I have been watching and listening to what has been going on over at wattwagon and they are indeed impressive in both design concept as well as product and producer integrity, critical factors for me. For what it is worth, my take on the Bafang ultra is that is has tremendous appeal to the power hungry for whom more is always better. Personally I like the balance of power and efficiency that Bosch offers and find the amount of effort and exercise that I get on a Bosch powered bike to be nearly ideal. I have no desire for more power, more Newton meters, or more than two 500 watt batteries. I understand that other differ and they have products that answer their needs...like the Bafang Ultra. This is my reasoning which has nothing to do with where it is produced. For all I know Bosch motors could come from the same factory as the Bafangs. I just know that the balance point of power and efficiency in Bosch ebike systems is just right for me.

I have been relying on Robert Bosch for the electric systems in my cars for forty years. Anyone else will have a hard time overcoming that level of confidence.

 

[TomD]

Well, again, not sure what Ravi's target market is. For a FS trail bike a lighter Bosch motor makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't want to put a Bafang Ultra in a bike like that and I agree the ligher M600 misses the mark in quit a few regards (noisier, less refined torque sensing, no app support). Apologies for the thread hijack.

 

[pennybags]

It's super easy to build Bafang bikes. The frames are available all over the internet for $100/piece. But, as I spoke with product managers of different companies, I understood why they never use that system.
<snip>
I thought a lot about Bafang. I have the contacts of CEO Sunny He and did exchange some emails but simply did not want to get into that risk. I can easily modify that frame to fit Bafang ultra but I won't, at least for now.

I don't want to pick your argument apart but you just answered your concern. All frames are easy to produce. If you can simply swap the mount on your frame to make a BOSCH / BAFANG system, then your argument is moot. I suspect Bafang has given their mount design to everyone, and it is easy to scale. Luna has published the drawings at various points, as an example.

Bafang used to sell a lot of max mid-drives and now they stopped making those motors started doing M500 and M600. That kind of change would create heart attack for companies like Canyon because they invest millions of dollars and they certainly don't want to leave their customers to the wolves.

Umm... so you are conveniently forgetting that BBSHD / BBS02 is still being produced after 8 years? Unlike Bosch Gen 2 systems or the yamaha older motors they dont support and sold till 3 years ago. that's not a valid point at all.

Companies like CANYON, PON, Accell require their motor manufacturer to pass certain testing. Bafang has not completed UL testing or they don't care to.
There is no service center here in the US like Bosch and Shimano does. Even if it exists, it is simply not in the same league as Bosch.

This whole thread is about service centers. Looks like you as easily find people who get stuck with Bosch and people that get stuck with Bafang. IN the Oregon / seattle area - there are some bike shops who are beginning to work on Bafang motors. Not saying that is perfect, but it is a start.
UL certification is not hard - on the WW forum, Pushkar mentioned he had to do the certification to bring the product to the US / Canada market. Yes, it is a lot of money but if you are spending "millions", may be the certification isnt the hiccup.

I can understand you dont want to use bafang, but please dont create FUD. Most of your points are just not valid, thought out arguments.

 

[TomD]

I have no desire for more power, more Newton meters

I'm pretty impressed by what some riders here and elsewhere are able to accomplish. On another forum someone posted a report riding their (human powered) bike ~100 miles around Seattle with a bit of elevation gain. I cannot fathom it, even on my e-bike. I barely ride 20 miles on medium assist and it feels like a workout.

For me it's more about having options. I'm getting the 2300W version from WW (only because it was included for free on the founder series, but doubt I'll ever set it above 750W as I prefer to stay legal, especially for liability reasons). Even if you're fine with 500W peak now, perhaps as you age you might benefit from 750W or the full legal limit? Or maybe you might want to replace a vehicle and haul a heavy trailer full of stuff. Or just need to get home faster in an emergency.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

All frames are easy to produce.

of course not!

Perhaps if you spend more time designing a frame, you may realize how much work it takes to create a quality frame and build them in scale.
Motor mount is just one aspect of the frame. There is HUGE variation in frame quality and where/how it is produced. You could get a $100/unit frame and you could have $500/unit frame and they may look identical to an untrained eye but there are definitely not the same. I recommend you try to build one and you will quickly realize all the issues that you might be unaware of now.

Bosch Gen 2 systems or the yamaha older motors they dont support and sold till 3 years ago.

I am not sure where you get this info. Bosch and Yamaha motors are fully supported. Please do not spread this misinformation.
Try to find single Bafang personnel to talk to in the US! Impossible!!
Ask any E-bike retailer worth a salt about the service offered by Bafang.

UL certification is not hard

It takes $50,000 or more for a certification.
I know Pushkar well and I worked with him to design the first iteration of WW back in early 2019 but to simply put, Bafang has not completed UL testing as of now.
May be they don't care but the certification is not printed on the motor conformity document.

Anyway,

I wish you well. You seem to be passionate about E-bikes. They are wonderful. Enjoy the whole process. In the hands of the best jockey, even a slow horse can be a winner.
Whether it is Bafang or Bosch, if the people supporting you are good, then you will be fine.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Going back to Rohloff.

Here is a video explaining the seal replacement for Rohloff.

 

[Dionigi]

Going back to Rohloff.

Here is a video explaining the seal replacement for Rohloff.

WOW, on this video it takes 7 minutes, at Cycle Monkey it takes 2 months. Back to the Rohloff discussion, with Rohloff’s reliability issues in question you would think this would be an opportunity for Enviolo to come up with an upgraded hub. For all the complaints about the Enviolo having limited gear range and drag they actually are a low maintenance, non oil leaking and very reliable alternative. If they can up their game and manufacture a hub with slightly less drag (particular matched with the less drag gen 4 motor) and a gear equivalent range of 450% at a $1000 cheap then the Rohloff option this would be my first choice.

 

[smorgasbord]

Very soon, R+M will not be the only one to offer fully sprung rear rack, adventure bike.
Take a look at what is in the works ... a full suspension Gen 4 bike with speed motor, 625+500 battery, FOX suspension, Rohloff/ENVIOLO and a sprung rear rack.

Does it also have the Gates belt drive? That's been a sticking point on full-suspension bikes for a while and I've only seen R&M do that so far.

 

[byunbee]

@smorgasbord, I like your avatar....

 

[dblhelix]

Less than a year ago, Rohloff Australia created a FB post which, after all is said and done, ascribes “leaks“ to owner hypochondria. They say that they installed two allegedly leaky hubs and no leaks! I’ll leave a link below so you can enjoy the arrogance. Fortunately, a number of users in AUS pushed back to inform that reports of leaking hubs are legion.

My situation is much like Trevor’s. The hub leaks a sufficient volume of oil that if I were to take on an any distance trip, I’d also have pack Rohloff oil. Not acceptable. It also bathes the E14 every time - unacceptable.

I think the key point (see image) is in the frustration of “I’m not paying to send it back for another seal fix.” The dealer is off the hook after two years. If you plan on keeping the bike beyond the two year mark, you’re the one doing the shipping and trying to get the damn thing repaired. And the “maintenance-free” hype is clearly BS.

 

[pennybags]

Does it also have the Gates belt drive? That's been a sticking point on full-suspension bikes for a while and I've only seen R&M do that so far.

It would be great if you can do that. If you have already spoken with the people who make R&M frames, then the belt drive option should be available too. That will be exciting.
Price it at 4k and you have a winner!

 

[Over50]

This thread has about convinced me to not own a Rohloff again - as a USA customer that is. Probably a much better experience in Germany and/or EU. My mechanical Rohloff was great but with very limited mileage so never really tested. Something to be said for a traditional set-up - more maintenance and more hassle but at least an owner can get it fixed quickly and pretty much anywhere. It would be nice to see the other hub makers step up their game because the need is obviously there for e-bike application. As @Dionigi says, it would be ideal to see more a more robust Enviolo. Alfine. Pinion looks like an attractive option for hub drives but likely they don't have any sales or support in the US.

 

[pennybags]

As long as you are not using the Bafang Ultra, all hubs are good options. Most hubs are rated up to 90 - 110 Nm of torque. Rohloff is the only one that exceeds that spec.
You should be ok with most options there.

 

[Scott Adams]

Alaskan, you have great patience.

High mile enthusiast riders really need to have two ebikes in order to stay on the road all of the time, I wish that weren't true.

A little input from Rohloff would be nice here. Has anyone checked the German language forums for discussion of this issue? They revel in discussion of these sorts of things.

Sorry for the simple question, perhaps I should have read more closely, is the problem only seen with the E-14 version?

Looking forward to seeing what Ravi has in the works.

 

[Captain Slow]

Geez, I had thought to myself - one day I want a bike with a Rohloff. This thread is definitely concerning. I think the silver lining is as long as it's not an E14 then it likely will be fine. But still if you get unlucky it sounds like you're out of luck with such poor service.

 

[Over50]

Yes, service and support is the key. Maybe the odds are that the hub will be reliable and solid. But if something does go wrong, an owner should be able to get quick and reliable resolution.

 

[Alaskan]

My leak had nothing to do with the E14 other than the fact that it did get all oily as it was in the path of the leaking oil. My oil leak emerged from a seal that is inside the passage at the core of the hub that the axle skewer runs through, not the large seals on either side of the hub. It clearly could have happened to a hub with manual shift.

I wonder if the new Kindernay internally geared hub from Norway, with 543% gear range, could be the competition Rohloff needs to get it's act together. https://kindernay.com/products/

For me the weak point of the Kindernay is the bulky hydraulic shifting mech and the need for two shifters and hydraulic lines from the handlebars to the mech, one on the right and one on the left. I would rather see an electro-hydraulic mech with a two push button shifter on the right of the handlbars with a thin two lead cable from the bars to the hub. It is cool the way the wheel is laced to a latticed framework and the gear can be removed without unlacing the wheel.

 

[drewberz]

For those Rohloff owners interested in knowing more about oil leak, here is an FAQ from Rohloff Australia.
What they mention is that only 7ml is needed for gear lubrication but the hub shell has about 25ml for other purposes and to keep lubrication at optimal level.

Oil is a newtonian fluid and it is normal for a semi-closed system like Rohloff hub to re-balance itself.

https://www.rohloff-au.com/faq-oil-leaks

I have done couple of oil changes and I have not experienced any oil leaks from the hub.
In many cases, it is nothing to be worried about but only when it crosses threshold, it can be alarming.

Am I correct in interpreting this to mean that any Rohloff oil leak does not matter beyond the increased noise from oil loss and the impact on the immediate area from leaked oil? You could tilt the bike to accelerate the leak, catch the oil, and protect or cleanup the bike parts affected by the leak. How much louder is the hub with the bare minimum amount of oil in it?

From the linked Rohloff source:

"What is important to remember here however is that although the SPEEDHUB has 25ml of oil within it, the hubs only actually require approximately 7ml for lubrication. The remaining 18ml is only included to help with noise damping. This 7ml of oil that the SPEEDHUB requires will never be lost completely because the oil properties allow it to cling highly to the surface areas of all components within the SPEEDHUB. Even after extracting the oil with the syringe, this amount of oil can still be found within the gear-unit. For this reason "The gear unit can definitely not be damaged from riding with too little oil". As long as the SPEEDHUB was originally filled with oil (i.e. not dry) and an oil change has made at least every 5000km (to guarantee that any penetrated moisture is rinsed out), then the gear-unit will continue to run flawlessly."

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

So, it is interesting to see diverse experiences. So far, 3 people here have experienced oil leak and all their bikes are belt drive. There are bikes with Belt drive and E-14, that are running fine.
I will be very eager to look deeper into the number of hubs sold and number of hubs that have issues. The other day, I inquired with few Optibike riders who had put in 12,000 miles or more each and they did not have any oil leakage issue even though their motor is running at 1000W.

Internet is littered with stories of people who have ridden thousands of miles. And there are threads that discuss oil leakage as well:

Rohloff oil leak

Rohloff oil leak

thorncyclesforum.co.uk

Rohloff oil leaks

July 2, 2018 - Anyone any experience of this? Mine is leaking enough from the non drive side that its getting on the brake disc. It seems to be coming either thru the

singletrackworld.com

If the current distributor of Rohloff is not cooperating to service or perform seal replacement, then I will try to setup alternative route. If the hubs are working and it is only matter of replacing seals, then it can be done very painlessly. I myself have over 3000 miles and have not experienced any leakage considering I have ridden the bike in Chicago winters.

If the ratio of people experiencing oil leak is in single digit %, then any OEM should be able to resolve this. Perhaps strengthening the seals may resolve some of this issue. Either way, for someone with no support from the OEM, it can be a frustrating experience but I hope it does not lead to "cutting off your nose to spite the face"...

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Am I correct in interpreting this to mean that any Rohloff oil leak does not matter beyond the increased noise from oil loss and the impact on the immediate area from leaked oil? You could tilt the bike to accelerate the leak, catch the oil, and protect or cleanup the bike parts affected by the leak. How much louder is the hub with the bare minimum amount of oil in it?

The hub becomes tiny bit louder and it is not the best case scenario. I have read one case where a world tourer had minimal oil in the hub and he was very concerned. Rohloff advised him to just fill up more oil and he was able to move on without any issue for the rest of his tour.

When they do oil change, one has to extract some air out of the hub shell to maintain optimal pressure. Upon filling 25 ml oil, if they don't extract some air to create mild vacuum-like condition then once you close the cap, the hub shell has much high pressure and of course it may leak. So, it is really hard for me to think, a product that is revered by world tourists can be tarnished just like that. I simply don't buy it.

Is oil leakage possible, yes. But, I simply don't have enough data to make conclusive statements as of now.

This guy does put his bikes through very punishing conditions and if he can vouch for a product, that counts for something.