Rohloff Speed hubs on E-bikes (Mechanical and E-14) - Discussion

Given that the Rolhoff is the most expensive component on the bike. Who is responsible for servicing it is crucial. Most of the time when you buy something the manufacturer is fully responsible for all the components. If I take my Mercedes in for service and the alternator has crapped out, I don't have to deal with Bosch about it. Mercedes service handles it.

I wonder if manufacturer's like Rise & Muller have an agreement with Rohoff that Rohloff takes care of servicing their product even when it is incorporated into R&M's bike. Regardless of the arrangement, Riese & Muller will suffer as a result of Rohloff's failure to adequately support their product. R&M should be taking affirmative action to protect their own reputation at this point.

I don't know how the RM & Rohloff agreement is structured and I don't want to guess. I can tell you that with our contract, Rohloff is very specific - Watt Wagons has to provide replacement /parts on our end, and RMA with Rohloff as needed. (Slight digression.... to meet this service threshold, we constantly apprise our customers about hub limits, Dos / Donts, to minimize issues. I dont know if others do that, but we do.)


From a consumer's point of view, this is an unacceptable breakdown in service and support for an expensive, high end product.

Great point. I believe every OE tries to service their customers (some better than others ). That being said, I can absolutely see why some cases may slip through. I don't have a good answer for you on why that happens. However I do want to share that scaling customer service is significantly harder, esp if there is no local presence.

/start sales pitch.
You make excellent points. I went through your post history, and I know you have been a loyal customer and user for the brands you ride. We cant promise miracles, but if you are ever in the market for a high end bike, with excellent parts, and equally awesome customer support, we would love to build you one! :cool:
/end sales pitch.
 
To me this is a classic case of manufacturers pointing at each other trying to avoid responsibility. Fortunately I have a retailer with integrity in my corner. My issue is clearly a flaw in the hub itself and has nothing to do with E14 or electronics. The thing started leaking oil.

In early January, the Rohloff on my 9 month old Riese & Muller Homage, with 3,500 miles on it, started leaking oil into the center passage where the spindle passes through the hub. The oil was seeping out all over the the E14 mech (which has never had a problem even when covered with oil). The oil was getting on the inner ring and lattice of the brake rotor but had not yet spun out to the outer braking ring surface. I am pretty meticulous in my maintenance so I caught it right away, before it started dripping on the floor.

My Riese & Muller dealer, LA Fly Rides, is 1,300 miles away, I called them asking for help. They authorized me to to take my bike into the local Trek shop, who will work on any bike, to have the wheel removed and shipped to Cycle Monkey in Richmond, California. Cycle Monkey was the only Rohloff authorized service facility. Fly Rides opened up a service request on my behalf and told me that Cycle Monkey estimated a 2 week turnaround for my repair. A month went by and I called Fly Rides who tried to contact Cycle Monkey but did not hear back from them. A pattern emerged of no communication, no answering of voice mail or email...nothing. I spend much of February on my bike in California, so I did not stay right on top of it. @Dionigi has an even worse tale to tell about Cycle Monkey and an oil leak on his Rohloff.

Supposedly Rohloff is training up another service center for the east coast. They need to get a supply of parts into North America. Right now all parts have to be ordered from Germany causing ridiculous delays.

After the passage of another month, I called Fly Rides to request that they contact Rohloff and Riese & Muller about the unacceptably poor service Rohloff provides in North America. I asked that Fly Rides get my wheel and hub back to their shop and put a new Rohloff on it and get my bike working again. Fly Rides contacted Rohloff and got them to agree to a fix. They put all new innards in my hub, new gears, seals, bearings, etc. The only original part remaining is the case which has the original serial # on it. They also replaced the E14 and brake rotor. The wheel was shipped back up to me with the new hub parts arriving this past Tuesday, April 13 almost exactly 3 months after it was sent in.

My take is that:
  • Rohloff has drunk too much of their own kool-aid, claiming their product is totally reliable and will never need anything except an oil change....clearly not true
  • Rohloff has a lousy service provider for North America - Cycle Monkey clearly has a culture of no communication, not with retail customers, not with dealers. They are the show and we have to accept it.
  • Claims that Rohloff with Gate belt offers a maintenance free drive train are hype. There is no such thing.
  • The above may have been true for bike powered by legs alone but clearly on ebikes there are problems showing up.
  • I suspect, but cannot prove, that the forces applied to the gear box by an e bike is revealing weaknesses in the Rohloff design.
  • Riese & Muller needs to reevaluate how they support their Rohloff equipped bikes. Rohlofff's problems with service and communication are reflecting poorly on Riese & Muller and hurting their brand.
  • Without the help of LA Fly Rides, a solid dealer who is committed to customer satisfaction, I would have been screwed.
  • Cleaning, oiling and replacing the chain on a derailleur system is not such a big pain after all....way better than not having your bike for three months.
  • Will I ever buy another bike with a Rohloff? Probably not. If it worked as advertised I would... but it doesn't.
I have never agreed with a post as much as this one before. I agree with every word, but I only have one like to give.
 
For those Rohloff owners interested in knowing more about oil leak, here is an FAQ from Rohloff Australia.
What they mention is that only 7ml is needed for gear lubrication but the hub shell has about 25ml for other purposes and to keep lubrication at optimal level.

Oil is a newtonian fluid and it is normal for a semi-closed system like Rohloff hub to re-balance itself.

https://www.rohloff-au.com/faq-oil-leaks

I have done couple of oil changes and I have not experienced any oil leaks from the hub.
In many cases, it is nothing to be worried about but only when it crosses threshold, it can be alarming.
 
Ravi, I have read this Rohloff document very carefully several times at the beginning of this episode. My leak in no way resembles the faint wisp of oil from respiration/equalization that they refer to in this document. It was a drippy mess not a thin haze.
 
I finally have my Riese & Muller Homage Rohloff HS back. First of all a big shout out the Hector, Max and Ike at LA Fly Rides for all their help in getting a working bike back to me. They really interceded on my behalf and leveraged their relationship with Riese & Muller to get Rohloff to respond and fix my leaky hub. It was two months of nothing from Rohloff. Once Fly Rides started calling up the food chain, my hub was fixed and on its way to me in two weeks...the way it was supposed to be in the first place. This whole episode cemented the value added of having excellent dealer support for an ebike, especially one with sophisticated and expensive components.

I just took the bike out for a 12 miles test ride. Although my confidence in the "maintenance free " aspect of Rohloff is now a thing of the past, I had forgotten how lovely it is to ride the Homage with its superb, Fox, full suspension. In addition the Rohloff is so smooth, has such a wide gear range, shifts so nicely and is so quiet. I know others differ, but I am still a big fan of the E14 shifter.

I was considering selling this bike once it was fixed and I got it back. After riding it, I really do want to keep the bike. It will be my #1 choice for long, overnight touring. If I am going to spend many hours in the saddle this is the bike.

20200418_135022.jpg
 
@Alaskan ,

Glad to see you got your hub+bike back.

In your case, the issue was exacerbated because you live in Bellingham, WA and your dealer is in California and the bike manufacturer is in Germany.
What should have taken a week, took 3 months because of multiple factors.
The turn around would be faster for many big scale and small scale OEMs but things like this always happen.

When I meet with Rohloff folks, I will discuss some of these in detail and update here.
 
I had forgotten how lovely it is to ride the Homage with its superb, Fox, full suspension. In addition the Rohloff is so smooth, has such a wide gear range, shifts so nicely and is so quiet. I know others differ, but I am still a big fan of the E14 shifter.

It is a very plush ride for sure.
Very soon, R+M will not be the only one to offer fully sprung rear rack, adventure bike.
Take a look at what is in the works ... a full suspension Gen 4 bike with speed motor, 625+500 battery, FOX suspension, Rohloff/ENVIOLO and a sprung rear rack. I have excluded some of the confidential drawings but this I can make it public.

In the process, I got to know where R+M builds their frames and other companies like YT, CANYON etc.
A lot of work goes into building a high performance, full suspension design that can also incorporate Rohloff and sprung rear rack.



Ravi-prototype1.jpg
 
If it is, it is an old one. If this starts leaking again, I am not really sure what I will do. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Very nice looking project there Ravi! I am eager to see it fleshed out with its full specs. Also eager to learn what your chat with Rohloff results in. I would hope someone there is following this thread and has some changes in the works to help regain their good name.
 
It is a very plush ride for sure.
Very soon, R+M will not be the only one to offer fully sprung rear rack, adventure bike.
Take a look at what is in the works ... a full suspension Gen 4 bike with speed motor, 625+500 battery, FOX suspension, Rohloff/ENVIOLO and a sprung rear rack. I have excluded some of the confidential drawings but this I can make it public.

In the process, I got to know where R+M builds their frames and other companies like YT, CANYON etc.
A lot of work goes into building a high performance, full suspension design that can also incorporate Rohloff and sprung rear rack.

This looks great. Bosch is a good system!
 
@Alaskan ,

In your case, the issue was exacerbated because you live in Bellingham, WA and your dealer is in California and the bike manufacturer is in Germany.
What should have taken a week, took 3 months because of multiple factors.
The turn around would be faster for many big scale and small scale OEMs but things like this always happen.
From the time the leak was discovered till the hub was in the hands of Rohloff's designated repair facility (Cycle Monkey) took five days. Shipping a wheel from Bellingham, WA to Richmond, CA takes two days via either UPS or USPS.

When the repair was authorized, Cycle Monkey told us it would take two weeks to fix my hub. With shipping time both ways, that is a total turn around of three weeks, not three months.

The two additional months were spent sitting in the Cycle Monkey's shop gathering dust with no communication. They should not be let off the hook here nor should Rohloff.

Rohloff knew that, thanks to Riese & Muller and Wattwagon, they had significant growth of the their products in North America. They failed to add either personnel or parts to service the increased units in North America. They are also the ones who chose Cycle Monkey. No passing the buck here.
 
Why build a R&M slayer with a Bosch motor? For the E shifting?
Maybe for guys like me who own multiple Bosch bikes & batteries and are not interested in buying a Bafang? The Wattwagon is an intriguing bike to me but the Bafang was a deal killer for me.

In terms of motor and battery quality and reliability, as well as service and parts, no one comes close to Bosch except perhaps Shimano. Bosch has the best parts inventory of any motor maker in North America.

Just about every Trek store has Bosch certified service. Trek's corporate policy is to work on all bikes whether they were bought there or not. That means that I can get my Bosch equipped Riese & Muller bikes serviced at the local Trek Store about a mile from my house.
 
Why build a R&M slayer with a Bosch motor? For the E shifting?
Why would you not? R&M owners tend to be happy with the Bosch motors and batteries. This is not a “x is better” comment but just a statement that if you are going to compete in that space for real, you have to offer Bosch in your fleet.
 
First of all a big shout out the Hector, Max and Ike at LA Fly Rides for all their help in getting a working bike back to me. They really interceded on my behalf and leveraged their relationship with Riese & Muller
Kudos. We don’t hear stories like this enough, and this one borders on heroic.
 
Just saying for it to be a R&M slayer it will be a tough sell if you essentially offer the same product at lower price. Most people with $7-10K to spend are going to go with proven name over saving a few $K, so the only way I see being able to compete is to offer something compellingly different, in addition to lower price. Maybe that is in the equation but from what I see it's a FS that looks similar to many Chinese FS bikes with a Bosch motor and will have a suspended rack option. Doesn't look like it will offer a spare battery on the frame. Maybe it's not intended to be a R&M slayer and the target market is different.

I understand the stigma of Bafang motors. Many that scoff at Bafang mid drives have never ridden them. I used to thumb my nose at Bosch and euro spec. Then I rode a Brose and changed my mind. They are powerful enough, and I have one (Yamaha). Bafang needs to up their game for sure. I'm guessing Pushkar will draw more to the dark side with the new controller. Batteries not an issue since they cost a fraction of the price and have significantly higher capacity and provide more options. Compare to internal and external battery capacity on the WW superbike.
 
I am happy that you love Bosch and ordered the R&M. The quality is usually great. :cool:

Bosch versus Bafang is a big conversation. Cant get away from it.

Dont want to belabor the point but here are my thoughts FWIW.

1. Bike Service availability - We keep seeing more and more popular bikes - Juiced, Rad power, Watt Wagons, Biktrix, Jump Bikes, Arial, Super 73, .....pretty much all existing fleet bikes....all use Bafang. As the number of Bafang bikes increase, I am sure there will be a new wave of bike shops servicing Bafang in the next 1-2 years. Creating a network takes time and having a lot of volume helps.

2. Personally speaking, I ordered the new superbike from Watt Wagons because it basically blows away any comparable bike spec-wise, power wise, and battery / range wise. The parts are excellent, the batteries have proven to be equally great across the board. For me, it is more important to go with a vendor who has thought through the issues, is local in the US, and is transparent about limitations / issues. Watt Wagons has that in spades. They appear to be building a reputation based on excellent components and continuous excellent customer feedback. With the new controller, and reading user reviews of the controller on Endless Sphere, I am convinced that Bafang Ultra is the way forward for new gen ebikes. The future is here!
 
Just saying for it to be a R&M slayer it will be a tough sell if you essentially offer the same product at lower price. Most people with $7-10K to spend are going to go with proven name over saving a few $K, so the only way I see being able to compete is to offer something compellingly different, in addition to lower price.
This is a really good point. It’s going to be interesting to see if R&M can innovate its way to continued dominance in MY21 or whether they get a bit stale, allowing scrappier start-ups to get a foothold.
 
Just saying for it to be a R&M slayer it will be a tough sell if you essentially offer the same product at lower price. Most people with $7-10K to spend are going to go with proven name over saving a few $K, so the only way I see being able to compete is to offer something compellingly different, in addition to lower price. Maybe that is in the equation but from what I see it's a FS that looks similar to many Chinese FS bikes with a Bosch motor and a suspended rack option. Doesn't look like it will offer a spare battery on the frame. Maybe it's not intended to be a R&M slayer and the target market is different.

It's super easy to build Bafang bikes. The frames are available all over the internet for $100/piece. But, as I spoke with product managers of different companies, I understood why they never use that system.
Product managers of Canyon simply refused to take Bafang on-board even though Bafang offered them all kinds of incentives.
I guess the product philosophies are different.

Bafang used to sell a lot of max mid-drives and now they stopped making those motors started doing M500 and M600. That kind of change would create heart attack for companies like Canyon because they invest millions of dollars and they certainly don't want to leave their customers to the wolves.

Companies like CANYON, PON, Accell require their motor manufacturer to pass certain testing. Bafang has not completed UL testing or they don't care to.
There is no service center here in the US like Bosch and Shimano does. Even if it exists, it is simply not in the same league as Bosch.

I thought a lot about Bafang. I have the contacts of CEO Sunny He and did exchange some emails but simply did not want to get into that risk. I can easily modify that frame to fit Bafang ultra but I won't, at least for now.
 
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