Riese & Müller : Reliability & Support

[JRA]

Although I have a good relationship with two ebike shops a hundred miles away at this point I am glad I have 3 bikes that are open source and simple enough for me to self diagnose and repair. Chances of at least one running at a time is pretty good historically.....plus I have learned alot about how it all works on the e end and already have the tools and skill set for the normal wear and tear replacement/maintainence. As long as the home delivery supply chain stays open that is which reminds me I should probably hoard up on a few of the essentials like disc pads, cassettes, chains and rings JIC and finalize my Grin order.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

A near-identical experience …
Last year a keen ebike-only cyclist whom I know bought his ultimate touring ebike, an Riese & Müller Delite. It's the 2019 model with the external Powerpack batteries and Rohloff E-14.

Apart from serious recreational riding around these parts, his plan was to head south via minor roads. There would be no R&M dealer support this side of Sydney (~1000 km) or beyond. Reliability was paramount; hence his choice of an R&M Delite with Rohloff. Apart from obvious differences in frame style, his ebike is similar to mine.

You've probably guessed where the story is going… the motor stopped working; the Rohloff E-14 failed. The details are different – for example, the Rohloff won't downshift unless the bike is stationary – but the effect on the rider is the same, shattered confidence. Can I possibly trust this bike?

 

[Johnny]

David's frustration is understandable. IMO this is a problem with R&M as he said.

Car analogy is on the other hand may not be the best here. A car is a lot more complex than a bicycle and usually it is much more time consuming to service one. Still luxury brands like Mercedes, BMW etc took a big hit when their cars became very unreliable early 2000's because luxury doesn't mean that people will put up with lousy reliability.

The ebike makers are unfortunately working like a custom pc builder from 2000's. Mixing and matching components and just designing the frame so that they fit. In my perspective, I don't see why RM or any other manufacturers' bike would be more reliable than the others.

Servicing a bicycle is fast as long as components are regular bike components. Unfortunately rohloff or bosch ebike components are not easy or possible to service by your regular lbs mechanic.

So the question is what exactly RM brings you when it comes to servicing if service is going to be handled by the part manufacturer? If every bicycle having the same component will go through the same process then what are you paying that premium for?

David Berry is right at being disappointed here.


That being said there is a false sense of reliability/luxury perception in the forums, a lot of marketing going on, which leads to disappointment in the end. Also a good LBS will make things easier but then it will be true for any brand not just RM.

 

[steve mercier]

Personally I have always felt the the Rohloff was a solution in search of a problem.

 

[smorgasbord]

Personally I have always felt the Rohloff was a solution in search of a problem.

The Rohloff solves a number of problems:
1) Great range (over 500%). Only other alternative is the SRAM 10-50 12-speed, and that also requires a special hub driver.
2) No hanging derailleur to catch on things when off-road
3) With Gates belt, less maintenance overall
4) Electronic shifting (when it works) easier on the thumbs for some people, and even at $1500, it's not really more expensive than the SRAM X01 12-speed with 10-50.

 

[Edrummer]

Apple was sued and lost when it wouldn’t allow private repair facilities to replace cracked screens. Bosch has a similar attitude/superiority complex with their motors. Making repairs almost impossible and crippling them when their software suggests that the motor was tampered with. R&M made a bad decision by choosing Bosch as their sole supplier of motors. Brose is no better.

 

[JRA]

1) Does an eBike need a 500% range of gearing especially on a 20mph limit bike?
2) Don't see many Rohloffs on off road type bikes and they have been around for a long time, perhaps it has to do with their weight bias?
3) Belt drives are nice but the specific frame requirements, belt lengths if changing the sprockets for any reason and need for an IGH of any sort to me outweigh the benefits
4) Electronic shifting is nice until it isn't and create more problems to fix than a broken cable. The small wire I broke on mine in the first 30miles was $30 to replace....If you have bad thumbs get a grip shifter perhaps

Not knocking those that have and love their Rohloff's but their price doesn't make them an "exclusive" enough option to warrant the extra expense over a conventional sprocket and chain drive train for most.

As far as Bosch goes their use of proprietary components resulting in the need for service training and single source of parts supply, along with Brose, Shimano, Yamaha can create their own issues if service is needed. All are good when working but long service times and ghost problems take some of the shine off them, for me at least.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I have few thousand mile experience on Rohloff (mechanical) and it has always worked. I was hesitant to purchase E-14 because the first gen would always some kinks.

When I saw their system in 2018, I was a bit disappointed because the control pad for E-14 is sourced by King meter that manufactures displays for $900 E-bikes. I expected lot more than that. I thought E-14 was thoroughly field tested but it looked like they cobbled up something to fit the product design requirements.

Precise communication between the E-14 unit and Bosch E-drive control unit in a dynamic system like an E-bike is very challenging. Even a small 0.2mm deviation would be exacerbated over few hundred miles with constant shifting of the Rohloff.

Re: service. A company of the size of R&M unwilling to setup a dedicated US office with stationed personnel concerned me greatly. Either they embrace the consumer direct model and adjust their price accordingly or charge a premium AND provide excellent service through their centers and dealers. I agree they have excellent designs but design is only one aspect of the overall experience.

The mechanical Rohloff on my was flawless and worked really well. I am hopeful that any glitches with E-14 would be ironed out in the next iteration.
A company like Trek has thousands of dealers, provides generous credit terms (net 60 to 90 days) for their dealers but in the case of R&M, everything is paid upfront and they charge hefty premium but they are unwilling to setup a US center for service/parts and push everything through the dealer or parts supplier like Shimano/ Rohloff/ Suntour. Then what am I paying the premium for?

 

[steve mercier]

I have few thousand mile experience on Rohloff (mechanical) and it has always worked. I was hesitant to purchase E-14 because the first gen would always some kinks.

When I saw their system in 2018, I was a bit disappointed because the control pad for E-14 is sourced by King meter that manufactures displays for $900 E-bikes. I expected lot more than that. I thought E-14 was thoroughly field tested but it looked like they cobbled up something to fit the product design requirements.

Precise communication between the E-14 unit and Bosch E-drive control unit in a dynamic system like an E-bike is very challenging. Even a small 0.2mm deviation would be exacerbated over few hundred miles with constant shifting of the Rohloff.

Re: service. A company of the size of R&M unwilling to setup a dedicated US office with stationed personnel concerned me greatly. Either they embrace the consumer direct model and adjust their price accordingly or charge a premium AND provide excellent service through their centers and dealers. I agree they have excellent designs but design is only one aspect of the overall experience.

The mechanical Rohloff on my was flawless and worked really well. I am hopeful that any glitches with E-14 would be ironed out in the next iteration.
A company like Trek has thousands of dealers, provides generous credit terms (net 60 to 90 days) for their dealers but in the case of R&M, everything is paid upfront and they charge hefty premium but they are unwilling to setup a US center for service/parts and push everything through the dealer or parts supplier like Shimano/ Rohloff/ Suntour. Then what am I paying the premium for?

I am fortunate in that I bought my R+M from my local Trek dealer. They were clearing them out after Trek bought out my LBS chain of 5 stores.
The Trek service mechs have been first rate in dealing with the pair of small warranty issues that have cropped up in the first 18000 km over 18 months. At the time of purchase I had my choice of a pair of Chargers at the same price , one with an internal hub and a belt and the other a GT tour with 11 speed deraileur. I took the Gt Tour for simplicity and it has never let me down. The issues were a crack in the aluminium plate that joins the rack to the frame ( they replaced the whole rack and bungee and included an improved steel bracket) and a low battery error message on the Intuvia ( they ordered a new one and replaced it in a week). Both times they gave me Trek loaner bikes ( Super Commuter and Verve +). So I am very happy with the R+M and when it is time for a new bike someday I will buy from the Trek lineup to keep using their great service.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

1) Does an eBike need a 500% range of gearing especially on a 20mph limit bike?
2) Don't see many Rohloffs on off road type bikes and they have been around for a long time, perhaps it has to do with their weight bias?
3) Belt drives are nice but the specific frame requirements, belt lengths if changing the sprockets for any reason and need for an IGH of any sort to me outweigh the benefits
4) Electronic shifting is nice until it isn't and create more problems to fix than a broken cable. The small wire I broke on mine in the first 30miles was $30 to replace....If you have bad thumbs get a grip shifter perhaps

That really depends on where you ride. If you frequently ride on steep and atrocious roads in mountainous conditions the Rohloff is really a no-brainer.

My own observation is that the mountain biker subculture has largely avoided Rohloffs because (1) weight, and (2) downshifting uphill can be awkward.

I'm not really a fan of electronic shifting in general and when I saw and tried the early e-shift system I was not impressed at all. My first reaction was "shifts like potato". Now that is probably far too harsh but it was my first reaction.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm really hesitant to post this because Murphy will almost certainly curse me for it. As many of you know I've ridden quite a few miles on a R&M Charger GX Rohloff, and while I've replaced a lot of parts far more frequently than I like (brake pads every 500-600 miles, chains every 1500 miles, &c) the bike has basically proved itself indestructible in atrocious conditions.

So there are people who have had (so far) positive experiences with R&M bikes.

Note that I have a CX motor and no e-shift.

 

[webcurl]

I'm not really a fan of electronic shifting in general and when I saw and tried the early e-shift system I was not impressed at all. My first reaction was "shifts like potato". Now that is probably far too harsh but it was my first reaction.

And my thoughts were also, what if i was out in the country side (Aussie bush) far away from civilization (would be handy right now) and the batteries died 2 days ago with no way to charge (solar not working, etc.).
I may have had a few thousand e14 shifts in the first day but on the second day without power the batteries are completely flat and i can't shift gears

 

[dblhelix]

I'm amazed that folks are surprised about this. This nonsense about great "German" engineering is probably based somewhat on outdated and possibly racist ideas. Looking at Consumer Reports and any other objective indicator of reliability German cars such as VW, Mercedes, Audi and BMW are not only expensive to buy and repair but have pretty poor reliability compared to Korean and Japanese brands. It's funny seeing David use Range Rover as an example, since even though they're English they also have abysmal reliability. No, ebikes are not cars but Germans devote a lot more funds and R&D to cars since they are a significant part of their industry, so if their cars fare so poorly I don't expect their ebike technology to be any better. One would think that the inability of Germany to even come close to competing with Tesla when it comes to EVs would remove any lingering doubts as to German technology.

An analogy …
Riese & Müller's Delite and Homage are sometimes compared with high-end 4x4s – Range Rover, for example. I have made the analogy here on the EBR Forum.

So, let's imagine I had bought said Range Rover (just saying!). One year later, with the vehicle still under warranty, it simply stopped – a dead motor with no discernible reason for its expiration. Rule out problems that can be tackled by 'roadside assist'. We're talking 'Error 532', whatever that might be.

The earliest repair appointment entailed a wait of eleven days. and this was done as a special favour as the only technician able to look after Range Rovers was going on annual leave thereafter.

With the vehicle 'fixed' – parts at my expense, labour reduced from three hours to one as 'goodwill' – I was back on the road… for two days.

Welcome to 'Error 596', whatever that might be. This time the electronically controlled transmission was stuck in a Goldilocks gear – not too high, not to low, but unable to be changed.

"The technician will see what's wrong when he comes back from annual leave." Oh, really!

Would anyone purchase a Range Rover with this variety of reliability and service? I wouldn't.

Of course, this is an analogy; insert 'Riese & Müller' instead and you have my reason for dissatisfaction.

David, do you normally pay for parts and discounted labor while the bike is under warranty?

Regarding an appointment for service. The closest R&M dealer to me is in Washington, DC. I bought a tire, and they didn’t want to put it on the bike. Said I would have to leave the bike behind, and they didn’t know when I could get it back. I don’t think I’ve ever bought a tire at a bike shop without being asked if I want it put on the bike at time of purchase.

Those of us on this forum might distinguish between component manufacturers when assigning blame, but I’d guess that in general, these types of problems amount to a bad customer experience that is ascribed to R&M. The “waiting” starts when people order a bike and then the wait continues during first year of ownership when these types of problems arise. It’s 10x worse, I’m sure, if you don’t own a second bike!

 

[JRA]

"That really depends on where you ride. If you frequently ride on steep and atrocious roads in mountainous conditions the Rohloff is really a no-brainer.

My own observation is that the mountain biker subculture has largely avoided Rohloffs because (1) weight, and (2) downshifting uphill can be awkward."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems like the two sentences above sort of cancel each other out? Downshifting uphill reliability is key for mountainous conditions. And weight, well that depends on how much of a wienie you are. As many miles as you have on a Rohloff I'm sure you have come to grips with it but I ride that type terrain with conventional gearing all the time and to me it is a "no-brainer" because I have been doing so for 40+ years.

Especially so because my front hub, with no PAS, provides a constant source of momentum and I can easily back off the pedals a bit to shift and not lose much whereas if you let up on a TS PAS to shift down on a hill the motor dies down and you lose some momentum that is fairly easily gained back when you power the pedals but loss is loss in the bike world.

My front shifting mechanism on my road bikes is a bit different in that they are Schlumpf drives and in order to shift between the two ratio's you have to hit a button that is covering the bb spindle bolt with your heel. That took some getting used to but after living with it for 20yrs now it is second nature. It's all good and as we age we can get used to about anything, well at least any one thing

 

[smorgasbord]

1) Does an eBike need a 500% range of gearing especially on a 20mph limit bike?

Yes.

And for a 28 mph on-road bike, certainly so as well. That's why SRAM is doing so well with its 500% Eagle 12-spd series of derailleur drivetrains. And then there's the versions with wireless electronic shifting.

Remember, with eBikes we're normally a 1x drivetrain, that is no front derailleur. So whereas analog bikes have 2 or 3 front chainrings to get the range of ratios, we're stuck with 1.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

...
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems like the two sentences above sort of cancel each other out? Downshifting uphill reliability is key for mountainous conditions. And weight, well that depends on how much of a wienie you are. As many miles as you have on a Rohloff I'm sure you have come to grips with it but I ride that type terrain with conventional gearing all the time and to me it is a "no-brainer" because I have been doing so for 40+ years.

Especially so because my front hub, with no PAS, provides a constant source of momentum and I can easily back off the pedals a bit to shift and not lose much whereas if you let up on a TS PAS to shift down on a hill the motor dies down and you lose some momentum that is fairly easily gained back when you power the pedals but loss is loss in the bike world.

My front shifting mechanism on my road bikes is a bit different in that they are Schlumpf drives and in order to shift between the two ratio's you have to hit a button that is covering the bb spindle bolt with your heel. That took some getting used to but after living with it for 20yrs now it is second nature. It's all good and as we age we can get used to about anything, well at least any one thing

I'm sorry but I wasn't really clear.

The wide range (for e-bikes) makes the Rohloff great in mountainous terrain. The gear range is about the same range as a mountain or road double.

On the other side, the fact that you can't shift when you are applying torque to the pedals can make shifting while climbing awkward at times. Especially if you are more of a grinder than a spinner, and doubly so if you are standing up in the pedals. If you can spin at a slightly higher cadence it becomes easier to "power-shift" the Rohloff when the pedals are in the 6-12 position (when there is exactly zero torque on the pedals). It seems kind of backwards but at least for me it is easier to shift while spinning than while grinding.

Because you have to at least briefly (and actually a little longer with an e-bike) stop pedaling you risk losing momentum on a climb. With practice you can minimize that.

 

[webcurl]

I'm sorry but I wasn't really clear.

The wide range (for e-bikes) makes the Rohloff great in mountainous terrain. The gear range is about the same range as a mountain or road double.

On the other side, the fact that you can't shift when you are applying torque to the pedals can make shifting while climbing awkward at times. Especially if you are more of a grinder than a spinner, and doubly so if you are standing up in the pedals. If you can spin at a slightly higher cadence it becomes easier to "power-shift" the Rohloff when the pedals are in the 6-12 position (when there is exactly zero torque on the pedals). It seems kind of backwards but at least for me it is easier to shift while spinning than while grinding.

Because you have to at least briefly (and actually a little longer with an e-bike) stop pedaling you risk losing momentum on a climb. With practice you can minimize that.

That's all different again with E14 (not that i have that or want it), i've heard you still have to ease a little bit even though it has an automatic pause that's supposed to handle that.?

 

[Dionigi]

In regards to R&M I’m not sure if it’s growing pains or arrogance, it might be a combination of both. But with their current service policies it does put a lot of pressure on the local dealers. Trek, Giant and Specialized seem to have the right formula for service and once the Japanese embrace the global ebike market companies like Honda and Yamaha will also have one source service (possibly through their motorcycle dealers).
Regarding the Rohloff E-14, I sense this is going to be a short lived transmission for ebikes. Rohloff has zero experience in electronics so this first generation is basically being beta tested by the end user.


Shortly companies like Bosch and Yamaha will develop integrated motor/transmissions leaving Rohloff to the long haul non-electric tourer. Specialized has already started to produce their motors and if they come out with a lightweight motor/gearbox and belt drive the R&M mark will go down in history like the Duesenberg.

 

[Dionigi]

In regards to R&M I’m not sure if it’s growing pains or arrogance, it might be a combination of both. But with their current service policies it does put a lot of pressure on the local dealers. Trek, Giant and Specialized seem to have the right formula for service and once the Japanese embrace the global ebike market companies like Honda and Yamaha will also have one source service (possibly through their motorcycle dealers).
Regarding the Rohloff E-14, I sense this is going to be a short lived transmission for ebikes. Rohloff has zero experience in electronics so this first generation is basically being beta tested by the end user.


Shortly companies like Bosch and Yamaha will develop integrated motor/transmissions leaving Rohloff to the long haul non-electric tourer. Specialized has already started to produce their motors and if they come out with a lightweight motor/gearbox and belt drive the R&M mark will go down in history like the Duesenberg.

Correction on my original post I mistakenly said Cannodale, it should have been Specialized.

 

[dblhelix]

In regards to R&M I’m not sure if it’s growing pains or arrogance, it might be a combination of both ... will go down in history like the Duesenberg.

The analogy was clear but I had to look up Duesenberg specifically. Good stuff.