Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
What about the Q-factor?
FlatSix911
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Silicon Valley
It does not seem to be a problem... check out the EBR review from Court.
Dionigi
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Santa Cruz & Pittsburgh
Rohloff failure after 11000 miles Video of Rohloff failure
This video is of a non-ebike Rohloff hub that failed because of bad quality control. With the Riese and Muller demand for the Rohloff I can’t see the quality control improving. Will the added stress of an electric drive bike exponentially increase the failure rate?
This video is of a non-ebike Rohloff hub that failed because of bad quality control. With the Riese and Muller demand for the Rohloff I can’t see the quality control improving. Will the added stress of an electric drive bike exponentially increase the failure rate?
HariSeldon
Member
Re the Rohloff failure video, I believe the guys thought that a burr has caused his problem is incorrect, looks more like a bearing/seal shield has had an 'event' .. it might have been on assembly as he speculates. Trouble with precision assembles they are not really suitable for disassembly on your bench.
In my previous life we designed and built all sorts of precision assemblies , made specialist tools for assembly and disassembly by OEMs for industrial screw compressors, gearboxes etc. You really need to ensure everything is assembled square, with the right tooling to ensure the loads apply evenly on the right places with the use of bench presses, its very hard in a home workshop to do this and keep things clean, anything we took apart went in a proper cleaning bath and was put together in a clean environment.
The fault may well have been at initial assembly but 11,000 miles is a long time for it to run with what appears to be a catastrophic failure of a component.
With regard to the OPs issue, that's very disappointing, I am in the UK and there a lot of Bosch dealers, who are full of praise for Bosch after sales and a few specialists who will do repairs themselves, the US is such large country that a dealer may a long way away, here in the UK no where is that far away, you are spoilt for choice, except you can't drive anywhere because we are in lockdown!
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I believe the direction this thread has gone validates my initial concern about the nominal topic. While a few issues specific to decisions made by Riese & Muller have been discussed, such as Ravi's point about Riese & Muller's lack of commitment to establishing service centers in its overseas markets, this thread has largely centered on a component not made by R&M but used by it more often than perhaps any other bike maker.
That component is of course, the Rohloff speed hub, something near universally admired and praised by nearly all reviewers and riders prior to Riese & Muller fully embracing their solution. Combining the "bulletproof Rohloff with the Gates carbon fiber belt drive promised a level of reliability and durability, fully in concert with the Riese & Muller concept.
The choice of using Rohloff so extensively by Riese & Muller has not turned out so well but to call this a Riese & Muller reliability issue is not entirely fair. Clearly there has been a failure by Rohloff to bring service along at the same pace as sales. Rohloff's good name is suffering deservedly because of that. This Rohloff issue that is reflecting badly on Riese & Muller. However this is like blaming Trek because they were delivered a lot of faulty derailleurs, by Shimano that were used in building their bikes that appeared to be per spec but failed after six months of use. This is where Riese & Muller needs to step up more. Regardless of which component is not living up to its reputation, Riese & Muller needs to be more active in solving its customer's problems and not just keep pointing its finger at Rohloff.
Of course all this comes at a time when doing anything about it is more difficult than ever because of more life and death issues than bike transmissions that are confronting our world.
More than ever, I think the title of this thread is unfortunate and unfair.
That component is of course, the Rohloff speed hub, something near universally admired and praised by nearly all reviewers and riders prior to Riese & Muller fully embracing their solution. Combining the "bulletproof Rohloff with the Gates carbon fiber belt drive promised a level of reliability and durability, fully in concert with the Riese & Muller concept.
The choice of using Rohloff so extensively by Riese & Muller has not turned out so well but to call this a Riese & Muller reliability issue is not entirely fair. Clearly there has been a failure by Rohloff to bring service along at the same pace as sales. Rohloff's good name is suffering deservedly because of that. This Rohloff issue that is reflecting badly on Riese & Muller. However this is like blaming Trek because they were delivered a lot of faulty derailleurs, by Shimano that were used in building their bikes that appeared to be per spec but failed after six months of use. This is where Riese & Muller needs to step up more. Regardless of which component is not living up to its reputation, Riese & Muller needs to be more active in solving its customer's problems and not just keep pointing its finger at Rohloff.
Of course all this comes at a time when doing anything about it is more difficult than ever because of more life and death issues than bike transmissions that are confronting our world.
More than ever, I think the title of this thread is unfortunate and unfair.
So maybe I'm confused here, but why should the manufacturer of the bike not be blamed regardless of who makes the components? Many car makers use standard components such as ZF transmissions, Takata airbags, and so on but when I buy a BMW, for example, I could care less who makes the components - I paid BMW for the car, it's their name on the car and it's up to them to make good on the entire assembly and not point the finger at a third party that they selected as a part supplier. Imagine buying a computer from Dell and being told that it's not their problem if the LCD panel on it was faulty and that any issues were between you and Samsung (or whoever made the panel). That's beyond ridiculous, especially when a brand is charging really high prices because of it's marvelous, German engineering.
Dionigi
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Santa Cruz & Pittsburgh
Richard I agree it is a Rohloff issue but the point is the bicycle manufacture has the system responsibility. Automobile makers address issues like this all the time. If my car’s airbag is defective Honda is responsible and through a dealer the part is replaced. The R&M dealers are on the losing end of the manufacture/dealer/customer relationship. I don’t think Trek sent the defective derailleur back for repair to Shimano, they replaced the derailleur. Hopefully R&M is having some serious engineering discussions with Rohloff because this could be a nightmare in 2 or 3 years when the failure rate escalates.
Dionigi
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Santa Cruz & Pittsburgh
Another issue is Rohloff was mostly an after market component supplier, a rider would buy the hub and have it laced into a wheel. The after market liability issues are completely different than a designed bicycle manufacture power train.
Roholff has guidelines for the aftermarket use of their hub but how it is installed is out of their control. R&M, Rohloff, Bosch and to a lesser degree Gates touted this fusion was a bullet proof German designed state of the art electric bicycle power train. In reality it’s off the shelf parts with a 180 ms delay.
Roholff has guidelines for the aftermarket use of their hub but how it is installed is out of their control. R&M, Rohloff, Bosch and to a lesser degree Gates touted this fusion was a bullet proof German designed state of the art electric bicycle power train. In reality it’s off the shelf parts with a 180 ms delay.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
Dennis I do agree that Riese & Muller will be suffering a serious diminution of their brand if they don't take action to deal proactively with the issues that Rohloff is causing. R&M built the bike, they sold the bike and they have the responsibility to assure the value of their own product. It remains to be seen what R&M's response to this emerging issue will be. However that won't be for while because of global social distancing and business slow down. I just think they deserve more of a chance to respond before being called out.
Dionigi
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Santa Cruz & Pittsburgh
I agree, but the issue needs to be voiced and hopefully it’s an easy fix. My dealer, Propel, has gone out of their way (as has your dealer) to resolve the issue. Hopefully when normality returns we all can ride with confidence on our R&M machines.
HariSeldon
Member
The big question is how many bikes have failed ?
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Honestly, I am surprised in 2020 that someone from R&M isn't monitoring this board and hasn't reached out to the people reporting problems. That is just Brand Management 101.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Yes, but to be fair given the prices and wait times involved in getting one of their bikes any problem is egregious.
dblhelix
Well-Known Member
Virus or no virus, my view is that the R&M business model suffers a lag when it comes to customer service. One dealer is not necessarily aware of what is happening at another dealership. Will a leak at a dealership necessarily warrant a message to R&M? No. So if you have a handful of dealers taking that attitude, R&M can remain blissfully unaware for a very long time.
Vetting service partners is Rohloff’s responsibility, but the buck stops with R&M. If you own a Mercedes-Benz and take it to your Eurocar dealer bc of transmission problems, would you consider the following acceptable:
1. Blame Daimler, AG!
2. Our Daimler service partner is taking time. Come back next month for another round of this.
3. Your transmission is back, but now has a new problem!
The difference in attitudes here may come down to why you purchased the bike n the first place. In my case, the Rohloff-belt combo was crucial, E-14 less so. For 2019, E-14 was a package deal on most models. I am not an owner for the weak paint job, inflexible and cheap rack or the sheer weight of the bike. So if your central motivation is jeopardized, you might question your choice at this point.
Id like to see R&M set up a channel for customers to submit problem reports independent of dealers. It doesn’t mean taking action on individual bikes — that can remain as-is — but it does mean taking some responsibility for multiple occurrences or tickets that are open too long. I’d call it protecting the brand. Another thing I’d like to see is a public database of the PDFs one has to request through the dealer.
Sorry but manufacturer problems are not limited to R+M. I have a bulls bike loaded with issues and all I get from bulls USA is a whole lot of lip service. And sorry to all you who think it's a dealer problem. Who do you think chooses each dealer and location? Who trains the dealers? Who supplies the dealers? Who do the dealers bill for warranty service? It all starts at the top, yes at R+M. So next time vote with your dollars, and send them a message.
I'm guessing it was a push by R&M to get E14 realized, a joint venture between Rohloff & Bosch. A bike designed & produced by R&M with 1 part that is a joint venture between 2 other companies? I realise E14 is now available on other Bosch ebikes but wasn't it exclusive to R&M for a fair while?
I liken this whole scenario to the Deepwater Horizon spill in the Gulf of Mexico and i may be wrong with some of the details but..
It was Halliburton's concrete that failed, possibly designed by Transocean or Transocean & BP or all 3. But BP was managing the whole operation.
I believe BP got hit hardest with compensation after Obama's investigation.
And there was a lot of infrastructure in the Gulf of Mexico to attend to a spill already as there are many rigs there, if BP or anyone else wants to drill the Great Australian Bight there's practically no infrastructure in Western Australia or South Australia to fix a spill! Sorry i diverge
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
My issue has nothing to do with Bosch or the E14. My hub started losing oil out of the axle passage. It could have happened to any bike built with a Rohloff, ebike or otherwise. Thank goodness the team at Fly Rides is my best advocate.
I hope Riese&Muller gets involved but it will likely be quietly and behind the scene. As long as they do assure this poor Rohloff service is corrected, they needn't toot their horn about it.
I hope Riese&Muller gets involved but it will likely be quietly and behind the scene. As long as they do assure this poor Rohloff service is corrected, they needn't toot their horn about it.
Yes EBB and even though i have bought 2 bikes from them they are big on the sales pitch but thats about it, i just hope my recently purchased R&M remains fault free.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
Having read this entire thread, my thoughts are with Mr Berry in getting his R&M repaired, and soon.
I just looked over the Cycle Monkey page on retrofitting an E14 shift system and got to thinking how we are going down this slippery slope of cutting edge technology stopping us in our tracks when these issues are going to come up. In the case of this system, this proprietary system eases the torque applied when pedaling to make an upshift or downshift with an eye to saving the drive gears from shock loading. Understandable when we are looking at a motor that could be putting out 500w of power at the time of the shift.
All carefully analyzed by the Bosch and Rohloff engineers to where one shift is completed in a mind boggling 200 millieseconds! Of course, the one aspect not carefully analyzed by the engineers was making things so complicated that only a qualified dealer specialist can troubleshoot and make the repairs, not the bicyclist alongside some road. And when that qualified dealer specialist with specific Bosch/Rohloff Factory Training goes on vacation, well..............
This is the road these manufacturers are taking us down, with their e-shift systems, sealed internal geared hubs and anti-lock brake system that can only be opened up and repaired by competent, qualified authority.
To think, not long ago, a derailleur and internal gear hub drive system on a bike was activated by something so rudimentary and old-school, called a steel cable!
I just looked over the Cycle Monkey page on retrofitting an E14 shift system and got to thinking how we are going down this slippery slope of cutting edge technology stopping us in our tracks when these issues are going to come up. In the case of this system, this proprietary system eases the torque applied when pedaling to make an upshift or downshift with an eye to saving the drive gears from shock loading. Understandable when we are looking at a motor that could be putting out 500w of power at the time of the shift.
All carefully analyzed by the Bosch and Rohloff engineers to where one shift is completed in a mind boggling 200 millieseconds! Of course, the one aspect not carefully analyzed by the engineers was making things so complicated that only a qualified dealer specialist can troubleshoot and make the repairs, not the bicyclist alongside some road. And when that qualified dealer specialist with specific Bosch/Rohloff Factory Training goes on vacation, well..............
This is the road these manufacturers are taking us down, with their e-shift systems, sealed internal geared hubs and anti-lock brake system that can only be opened up and repaired by competent, qualified authority.
To think, not long ago, a derailleur and internal gear hub drive system on a bike was activated by something so rudimentary and old-school, called a steel cable!
dblhelix
Well-Known Member
The feeling of helplessness during the virus epidemic will bring about pro-resiliency, anti-monopolist changes. OEM repair monopolies will hopefully be out-of-fashion.
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