Rad law suit

[m@Robertson]

Suppose that's true for the vast majority of kids. What's your plan for getting them trained up in sufficient numbers?

Parents.

If you don't want your kid to die, you teach them not to walk in front of a bus. This is just an extension of the same. I mean... parents teach kids stuff just to ride a bike. Like don't ride in front of a bus etc.

This doesn't need to be a government program.

Invoking parental responsibility at every opportunity is an industry tactic to evade any accountability or regulation.

I'm not one of those per the above. The Rad bike in question is a marginal design and poorly equipped for safety.

But I think the threat of legal liability - that I hope sticks here - is going to take care of this, by and large, industrywide. Regulation will be a player but likely a minor one. Things like frame angles, wheel quality and brake capacity don't goose politicians' desires to showboat in front of reporters as much as batteries do. And since this is not the EU, we are never going to go the route of Type Approval which is their solution. That level of government intrusion is not acceptable to our culture.

There is no way to force people to buy smart - witness the incredibly foolish purchases of cheap batteries from unaccountable foreign sellers. But what we lack now and I think what we will get after episodes like this is a value-oriented product channel that for reasons of self-preservation is not doing absolutely stupid things like using mechanical brakes on a bike meant to carry two people. Look at the budget cargo bikes that have just been released by Aventon and Lectric. Both have hydros out of the gate (same with the Lectric trike, and Lectric has if anything made low cost integral to their reputation). No fanfare but a concrete bit of progress that I think will become default action by vendors based in a country where they can be reached with the civil legal system.

 

[AHicks]

Invoking parental responsibility at every opportunity is an industry tactic to evade any accountability or regulation. Be it for bicycles, junk food, media programming, anything. Because they know they'll sell a lot more of a socially risky product if there are no protections besides a worn out mother or father having to say no. Even without a total ban, regulations can severely diminish demand for their product, and they know it, so they fight accordingly. But if regulations are placed, the effect can be dramatic with little real relevant reduction in freedom.

The Steinsapir case is somewhat murky, but the widespread reports of brakes on Rad bikes rapidly going out of alignment is far more convincingly damning.

First bold - couldn't agree more!

Second bold - These "reports" are based on lack of maintenance rooted in laziness and/or lack of understanding/experience. In any case, it's customer abuse.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Second bold - These "reports" are based on lack of maintenance rooted in laziness and/or lack of understanding/experience. In any case, it's customer abuse.

Right. Having brake problems after zero maintenance is akin to wondering why your car won't go after letting it run out of gas.

TT

 

[m@Robertson]

These "reports" are based on lack of maintenance rooted in laziness and/or lack of understanding/experience. In any case, it's customer abuse.

No I disagree. The use of cabled bicycle brakes on a bike that weighs triple what a bicycle does, and goes twice as fast, and on top of all that is advertised to carry double the payload (rider+passenger) is negligent in the extreme. Because everybody without reservation who is educated in the mechanics of the platform knows they are outclassed by the bike and the duty cycle.

This is not a problem limited to Rad bikes. Its been reported for years across the industry and the cause is well known. We as riders immersed in the platform know you have to keep dealing with stretched cables over and over again. But a consumer who just rides a bike and expects it to work for a reasonable, prudent amount of time - and who is ignorant of the severe duty cycle the brakes are being asked to undergo - they cannot be expected to figure this out on their own given the history and expectation of neighborhood bicycle riding that goes back decades.

This is textbook product liability. I think we're going to see cabled brakes go away on ebikes from domestic sellers as a result, and its about damn time.

Whether Rad is found liable for the accident is another matter. Its possible nothing would have saved those kids except education from the parents on not bombing down a hill, because physics.

 

[AHicks]

No I disagree. The use of cabled bicycle brakes on a bike that weighs triple what a bicycle does, and goes twice as fast, and on top of all that is advertised to carry double the payload (rider+passenger) is negligent in the extreme. Because everybody without reservation who is educated in the mechanics of the platform knows they are outclassed by the bike and the duty cycle.

This is not a problem limited to Rad bikes. Its been reported for years across the industry and the cause is well known. We as riders immersed in the mechanics of the platform know you have to keep dealing with stretched cables over and over again. But a consumer who just rides a bike and expects it to work for a reasonable, prudent amount of time - and who is ignorant of the severe duty cycle the brakes are being asked to undergo - they cannot be expected to figure this out on their own given the history and expectation of neighborhood bicycle riding that goes back decades.

This is textbook product liability. I think we're going to see cabled brakes go away on ebikes from domestic sellers as a result.

Sorry, on the bold, speaking as a 300 lb rider of one of these RAD bikes since late 2016, one that's powered with a 1000w MAC 12t, I couldn't possibly disagree more. That bike is often ridden in rolling coastal hills, taxing the brakes even more on occasion. In that time, I have NEVER been left in a situation I would not have been in if the bike were equipped with hydraulics. That's FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE........ not hearsay.

 

[Asher]

Right. Having brake problems after zero maintenance is akin to wondering why your car won't go after letting it run out of gas.

TT

No, it wasn't that trivial. It was an experienced bike owner, Peter Flax, and many other parents, having to align the brakes every few weeks. That's a total recipe for mass disaster, between the bikes being heavy, electric and entirely marketed to non-technical customers (unlike say Luna or Grin).

Roberson, agree about liability being the ultimate tool for chastening bike brands.

"There is no way to force people to buy smart - witness the incredibly foolish purchases of cheap batteries from unaccountable foreign sellers."

Hell, Amazon and eBay routinely sell products that physically *do not exist* - referring to microsd drives with stated capacities that exceed what has been invented. But liability, import control and or regulation can cut down a big deal on this. Otherwise agree with your remarks.

 

[m@Robertson]

Sorry, on the bold, speaking as a 300 lb rider of one of these RAD bikes since late 2016, one that's powered with a 1000w MAC 12t, I couldn't possibly disagree more. That bike is often ridden in rolling coastal hills, taxing the brakes even more on occasion. In that time, I have NEVER been left in a situation I would not have been in if the bike were equipped with hydraulics. That's FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE........ not hearsay.

Hearsay is first hand experience from many others with first hand experience. We're not in a court of law here. We're allowed to use our ears (edit: Also @Asher made the point much better than this above).

And to reiterate: A bike with that duty cycle is stupidly underpowered brakewise as it sits. I don't need to have any experience with a Rad Runner to know this. 45 years of utility/commute cycling and building my own bikes for decades from the frame up tell me what I need to know. That and mountain riding on road bikes, singletrack etc. etc. blah blah

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Sorry, on the bold, speaking as a 300 lb rider of one of these RAD bikes since late 2016, one that's powered with a 1000w MAC 12t, I couldn't possibly disagree more. That bike is often ridden in rolling coastal hills,

A lot of us have a suspicion that earlier Rad e-bikes had better brakes. If I were to bet (and this is speculation, but it is informed speculation) over time, especially during the great Supply Chain Crunch, Rad substituted parts that appeared to be "just as good" as the originally designed parts, but introduced a subtle flaw that was only really observable when the bike was under stress: e.g. when the brakes were applied hard at high speeds.

That could have been a different brake. It could have been the QR skewer. It could have been a minor change in the fork design that changed the shape of the dropouts or where the disk brakes were mounted. It could well have been a combination of all that was previously mentioned. The point is that even very small changes could cause dramatic changes in brake lifetime or the forces on the front wheel and axle. Also keep in mind that a system like this is much more likely to fail at high speeds when the forces are correspondingly larger. And also if they "fail" at low speeds it is easier to test for and more likely to be detected before a lot of people are out riding the bike.

 

[Asher]

A lot of us have a suspicion that earlier Rad e-bikes had better brakes. If I were to bet (and this is speculation, but it is informed speculation) over time, especially during the great Supply Chain Crunch, Rad substituted parts that appeared to be "just as good" as the originally designed parts, but introduced a subtle flaw that was only really observable when the bike was under stress: e.g. when the brakes were applied hard at high speeds.

That could have been a different brake. It could have been the QR skewer. It could have been a minor change in the fork design that changed the shape of the dropouts or where the disk brakes were mounted. It could well have been a combination of all that was previously mentioned. The point is that even very small changes could cause dramatic changes in brake lifetime or the forces on the front wheel and axle. Also keep in mind that a system like this is much more likely to fail at high speeds when the forces are correspondingly larger. And also if they "fail" at low speeds it is easier to test for and more likely to be detected before a lot of people are out riding the bike.

That is very plausible. Juiced for instance started subbing in no name Logan Brakes, and I've seen anecdotal reports of them failing and Juiced replacing them under warranty without issue. I have Logans on my bike but thankfully I've had no issues with them.

 

[mschwett]

… Also keep in mind that a system like this is much more likely to fail at high speeds when the forces are correspondingly larger. And also if they "fail" at low speeds it is easier to test for and more likely to be detected before a lot of people are out riding the bike.

this is also possibly a unique to hilly areas problem. you take the bike out of the garage and ride up the hill, which is super fun because the bike has a big motor and a throttle. no brakes used yet. you turn around and bomb it, again, haven’t even touched the brakes. are they working well when you start to feather them in at speed? hope so!

i do a couple very long climbs around here, and it’s always on my mind to do a quick brake check at the top, before starting the fast, windy, technical descent. my daughter has also been told a hundred times to check her brakes on the flat part of our sidewalk BEFORE bombing down the 22% grade to get to school. does she do it every time? probably not. but her bike is well maintained with mid-tier shimano hydraulic disk brakes, and total load is around 120lb. the brakes on that rad were dealing with easily twice that load and probably much more.

 

[AHicks]

Hearsay is first hand experience from many others with first hand experience. We're not in a court of law here. We're allowed to use our ears (edit: Also @Asher made the point much better than this above).

And to reiterate: A bike with that duty cycle is stupidly underpowered brakewise as it sits. I don't need to have any experience with a Rad Runner to know this. 45 years of utility/commute cycling and building my own bikes for decades from the frame up tell me what I need to know. That and mountain riding on road bikes, singletrack etc. etc. blah blah

1st bold- Yes, of course it's true. I read it on the internet! Go for it if you like......

2nd - An opinion. You're entitled of course, but that may not be always be a good idea to be accepted as fact.

 

[m@Robertson]

2nd - An opinion. You're entitled of course, but that may not be always be a good idea to be accepted as fact.

Respectfully, I think you are working too hard to try and win this point. Day to day long term working experience doing the actual mechanical work, both at the routine maintenance level and at the build level cannot be characterized as opinion. And doing it for 45 years was not a casual number thrown out. I started commuting daily to my job on a proper road bike - a Miyata 310 - in 1978. I'm not counting my cashier job that started in 1976 as I was still riding my Schwinn Hevi Duty at the time, and that was a coaster-brake storebought bike I didn't do anything to or with.

 

[AHicks]

Respectfully, I think you are working too hard to try and win this point. Day to day long term working experience doing the actual mechanical work, both at the routine maintenance level and at the build level cannot be characterized as opinion. And doing it for 45 years was not a casual number thrown out. I started commuting daily to my job on a proper road bike - a Miyata 310 - in 1978. I'm not counting my cashier job that started in 1976 as I was still riding my Schwinn Hevi Duty at the time, and that was a coaster-brake storebought bike I didn't do anything to or with.

So let me see if I have this correct. Going back to your post #127, you are saying a cable operated disc brake can't be trusted to stop an e-bike? That's an opinion, and I've offered first hand experience indicating you might not be as correct as you think you are......

Respectfully, I'm wondering who is calling the kettle black......

To be clear, I am not trying to say hydraulic brakes are inferior in any manner. My point is regarding cable operated disc brakes only - without confusing the issue with the fact hydraulics even exist.

Mr. Coffee, your earlier point regarding this make and model bike, with a possible unique defective brake and/or QR/fork style is well taken. In that regard, I have no knowledge/experience. My issue is with somebody knocking/down playing cable operated disc brakes in general. With that, I will take issue.... -Al

 

[Dorkyman]

Interesting thread.

In my perfect world, I'd require password protection for the controller and allow parents to set 10mph as a limit for kids. I'd also require torque sensors instead of crank sensors; much more intuitive and predictable. I think a lot of accidents come from things like taking a slow tight turn and then beginning to peddle--and the bike takes off.

Don't understand the issue with cable brakes. I rode a hydraulic disk-braked big Honda for 75K miles around LA as sole transportation for years as a young man. Yeah, the hydraulic brake is silky smooth. But our ebike brakes work great with cables. One can easily lock up the wheels--what more do you want?

I should add that both our bikes came from the factory with dry cables. Removing the cables and generously lubing them made a huge difference in feel and power. Not quite as smooth as hydraulic, but similar.

 

[Asher]

Respectfully, I think you are working too hard to try and win this point. Day to day long term working experience doing the actual mechanical work, both at the routine maintenance level and at the build level cannot be characterized as opinion. And doing it for 45 years was not a casual number thrown out. I started commuting daily to my job on a proper road bike - a Miyata 310 - in 1978. I'm not counting my cashier job that started in 1976 as I was still riding my Schwinn Hevi Duty at the time, and that was a coaster-brake storebought bike I didn't do anything to or with.

I just don't get why someone would take the word of a company in deep **** if it's hardware is faulty, vs a litany of customers expressing issues with their bikes to friends and family. (Ie completely putting aside the Steinsapir plaintiffs suing). Someone counseling skepticism to make room for something far more logically dubious...

 

[AHicks]

I just don't get why someone would take the word of a company in deep **** if it's hardware is faulty, vs a litany of customers expressing issues with their bikes to friends and family. (Ie completely putting aside the Steinsapir plaintiffs suing). Someone counseling skepticism to make room for something far more logically dubious...

I don't get the relevance of .001% of a company's customers opinions/experiences
might have relevance when purchasing a bike from that company.....

Want to compare them to an auto company?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Parents.

If you don't want your kid to die, you teach them not to walk in front of a bus. This is just an extension of the same. I mean... parents teach kids stuff just to ride a bike. Like don't ride in front of a bus etc.

This doesn't need to be a government program.

That doesn't appear to be happening in coastal San Diego County WRT kids on ebikes in the wild. Or if it is, it's grossly ineffective.

How would you address that, practically speaking?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

There are multiple models of mechanical disk brakes that I'd put up against all but the very best hydraulic brakes. The very good ones are very expensive, though.

EQUAL Mechanical Disc Brake Caliper Set

The EQUAL mechanical disc brake caliper set is one of the best in the world for braking power and lightness.They also of

growtac.com

 

[PedalUma]

At the peek of the lockdown a single mom ordered her grossly obese 10-year old a new $599 junk electric bike. She brought it to me for assembly. I disabled the throttle by using a set screw so the kid would have to pedal to get assistance. I told her about this as a condition for assembly. She removed the screw by the third week because the kid whined. Putting kids on motorcycles in the streets is not a good idea in my opinion regardless of their power source. And it does not matter if they have pedals like a T-rex has arms. It is still a motorcycle functionally. In another thread a 300 plus pound guy put a 1200 watt front hub on his bike and wrecked the fork. He wanted a cheep fix. I showed pictures of both Newton and Darwin. Sometimes they team up.

 

[PedalUma]

Plus

equals...