Pinion Motor.Gearbox.Unit (MGU)

[Rás Cnoic]

From Pinion's press release in Jan 24. It'll be interesting to see what other companies release MGU bikes at Eurobike in July:

In summer 2023, the Pinion E-Drive system with the Motor.Gearbox.Unit (MGU) at its heart was presented as a world first at Eurobike. After the innovative drive system won the Eurobike Gold Award in June and the Pinkbike Award in December last year, the Pinion team is now delighted to have received the Design & Innovation Award – the “Oscar of the bike and media industry”

The following leading bike brands are already relying on the innovation of the southern German company in the current model year: Bulls, Flyer, i:SY, Kettler, Pegasus, Rotwild, Simplon, Tout Terrain and Zemo. Everything from e-MTBs, e-trekking and e-compacts to e-cargobikes will be on show.

At this year’s Eurobike, new renowned brands will be presented with the Pinion E-Drive system, further establishing Pinion as an innovation driver for e-systems.

Press release here:

PINION MOTOR.GEARBOX.UNIT HONORED WITH THREE IMPORTANT INDUSTRY AWARDS - Pinion

Following the successful product launch of the Pinion Motor.Gearbox.Unit and the expansion of Smart.Shift technology (electric shifting, including for non-e-bikes), the course has been set for further growth at the drive specialist from Stuttgart. In order to optimally serve the high demand for...

pinion.eu

And pics of some of the bikes with the MGU:

PINION BIKES I E-Bikes, MTB, Touring & Adventure Bikes

Find your Pinion bike in our Bike Selection. Whether E-Bikes, MTB, or Touring & Adventure bikes, the Pinion system is ideal for a range of riding disciplines.

pinion.eu

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Here's an in-depth test of the Pinion MGU. This one on a Nicolai emtb. There's a podcast discussion of the bike, the testing and the MGU and all its attributes. Be warned its an in-depth discussion that lasts over an hour - after they tear apart the godawful looking McClaren emtb just released!

And the actual review:

Interestingly, today there is another review/discussion with Alan Jones and the head of Bosch bike systems Claus Fleische, testing his own Nicolai/Bosch prototype with a Bosch CX race motor coupled with Gates Carbon Drive and a 3x3 internal gear hub.

The fact that Bosch have a prototype of this non derailleur Emtb and are happy to go public with it (deliberately going public) suggests the emtb industry is looking long and hard at non derailleur drive trains for electric mountain bikes.

And it does seem to make complete sense. The Eurobike show where Pinion announced the MGU last year is coming up in July, it's going to be interesting what gearbox unit/non derailleur solutions are on show and what if any other brands have bikes to display either with the pinion or with other systems. Rumours last year that Brose had a MGU in development for instance.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Here's an in-depth test of the Pinion MGU. This one on a Nicolai emtb. There's a podcast discussion of the bike, the testing and the MGU and all its attributes. Be warned its an in-depth discussion that lasts over an hour - after they tear apart the godawful looking McClaren emtb just released!

Interesting discussion in the first video but five damaged T-Type derailleurs? Granted Rob does tend to thrash his bikes over terrain that many wouldn’t even think of attempting. I think the future for Pinion looks bright and may even spur other brands besides Nicolai to follow suit. On the maintenance side, there’s little to do. On a traditional mech bike you might not think that it’s much of an arduous process to clean or replace drivetrain components over time but having a fleet of bikes certainly might make you think seriously about downsizing. One slight negative that wasn’t brought up, and this likely applies to all emtbs, are rides involving hike-a-bikes. Something that I was rudely introduced to last year when riding my Levo.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Interesting discussion in the first video but five damaged T-Type derailleurs? Granted Rob does tend to thrash his bikes over terrain that many wouldn’t even think of attempting. I think the future for Pinion looks bright and may even spur other brands besides Nicolai to follow suit. On the maintenance side, there’s little to do. On a traditional mech bike you might not think that it’s much of an arduous process to clean or replace drivetrain components over time but having a fleet of bikes certainly might make you think seriously about downsizing. One slight negative that wasn’t brought up, and this likely applies to all emtbs, are rides involving hike-a-bikes. Something that I was rudely introduced to last year when riding my Levo.

I was thinking about all this last weekend when I was giving a long overdue cleaning to 2 of my bikes. I degreased both drive trains and thought what I an icky unpleasant job this is! The idea of a Gates belt and no oil or chain is suddenly very attractive. As you say be interesting to see what happens next. Certainly for mountain biking there doesn't seem to be any downsides if the industry pivots to MGUs and variants. Likewise trekking or even touring ebikes. As to Rob destroying so many cages?! I wonder if it has anything to do with his height? Or maybe as a bike tester he just rides a lot, but I did raise an eyebrow. Actually I found the discussion more interesting then his review. Having 3 opinions openingly talking about it all and the MGU passing that test was very interesting. The main things they agreed on; Maintenance free, less wear and tear on drive train, no derailleur to smash, silent on downhills (and no back of mind worries about rocks etc), change of gears when stationary and some suspension benefits from having the weight in BB area and not at rear hub. All these sound great. I think long term reviews on the Pinion MGU are important, after all if you wreck a derailleur the cost isn't crazy but with both motor and drive train in the same box, dodgy warranty issues and frequent faults that result in paying for a replacement MGU yourself could be crazy expensive. At least Pinion are not some Chinese warehouse start up but have a long and outstanding engineering reputation. If more brands come on board that should help & also bring the price down - or other motor companies might jump into this space with their own solutions.

 

[kevinmccune]

Rob managed to snag one and take it for a quick spin around the car park at Eurobike.

I think it's a big leap. A moment. This isn't a prototype. You can buy the bike he's on for €8,999 right now (or shortly I think) which although far out of my pocket, is not bad price for today. Comparable to many Bosch full fat full sus bikes. I think that's what is interesting - it's real, it must therefore work (time & trails will tell) and it's a reliable company with a great reputation & gearbox track record. Who knows if Pinion will change the industry but looking at the response so far, a lot of people are interested. This is making waves. Plus as German engineers, Pinion does not toy with new gizmos. For ten years they've made a only 2 gearboxes (each with different gear ratios) and that's about it. So this is a massive departure for them. but for years people who use bike gear boxes have been saying that ebikes will be the perfect partner for gear boxes as weight is not an issue as it is under human pedal power. But so far a pinion with a hub motor hasn't felt clean or a good match (to me).

Plus looking at videos from the show today a number of other motor manufacturers seem to have their own motor/gearbox prototypes. I'd say it's looking likely this will be very popular. And agreed Antboy, bound to be version 1 issues and yes Stefan they will need a strong warranty system in place. I mean Pinions are famous for needing no maintenance and having no issues, but the motor and gear box plus all the sophisticated electronics/sensors etc under the one roof is literally having all your eggs in one basket!

But here's where I think it'll be hugely popular; in a full sus SUV bike, like the Tero X. Commuting through the winter, 20miles each way say, on dark wet days with built in lights and mudguards and racks and suspension for 20 miles of bumps but then the drive train on the Tero X getting filthy with all the road grease and mud. Day after day. The Tero X already looks a fantastic go anywhere comfortable SUV bike for a long bad road commute in winter. Having the large Pinion gear range and sealed - maintenance free - drive train would be very welcome I bet.

dang,i want one,that thing is almost like a cvt,been waiting for this a long time,i would almost bet the gearbox will actually get a little quieter in the low gears after several"klicks" you can bet there will be some reverse engineered chinese units coming along shortly if this gets popular,i am still waiting for the actual wheel "rotor" to come along which would favor a cassette,now if the price could drop a bit.

 

[PedalUma]

Over complexity sucks. A friend is getting one and wants me to unbox, assemble and tune it. The thing will break, then what? He breaks everything. Who will service this thing? Cool stats and Wow on paper and internet Buzz are different than real world reliability. I say keep the parts standard and separate and interoperable with off-the-shelf stuff. It will last less than 90-days for my buddy. About the first time for an oil change. He will not be able to service it locally or return it. The glamor of the Wow fantasy has him hypnotized now. Nice guy and friend but a sucker. After these are in the field for two years then perhaps reconsider.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Over complexity sucks. A friend is getting one and wants me to unbox, assemble and tune it. The thing will break, then what? He breaks everything. Who will service this thing? Cool stats and Wow on paper and internet Buzz are different than real world reliability. I say keep the parts standard and separate and interoperable with off-the-shelf stuff. It will last less than 90-days for my buddy. About the first time for an oil change. He will not be able to service it locally or return it. The glamor of the Wow fantasy has him hypnotized now. Nice guy and friend but a sucker. After these are in the field for two years then perhaps reconsider.

Wise words. People of technocrat mentality get overexcited with the inventions when the product is a novelty. It is not so sweet after two, three or four years of the e-bike ownership.

There is yet another thing that has killed many great products, such as Boeing 747 or Airbus 380 airplanes: Lack of orders (after many successful years). If no major e-bike company orders the Pinion.MGU for its flagship line, the product is doomed. Nicolai thinks like our Ravi: "everything integrated, a belt drive". How many Pinion.MGU motors can Nicolai and Tout Terrain order to make the project profitable?

What's happened to the "revolutionary" TQ HPR 120 motor? While TQ made a good comeback with the TQ HPR 50 as the brand could find several strong launch customers.

 

[Chargeride]

If we invented the derallieur tomorrow, and all bikes were internal geared.
I think quite rightly, everyone would ridicule it for exposure to wear and damage, extreme maintenance requirements and clattery noise.
I am constantly amazed I dont rip the silly thing off every ride, I never make decisions based on its precarious position like I do a thousand times with the pedals.
Yet I have only broken a handfull in a lifetime of riding.

I cant see it going anywhere, unmatched efficiency, endlessly upgradeable and adjustable, incredibly easy to repair and emergency botch.

But time will tell, Im sure rental companies will love them, and better batteries will negate the efficiency concern.

Of course ebikes shouldnt actually need gears, theres a motor waiting to be invented that can climb a mountain at 2mph and cruise at 20mph.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Even in a traditional car, the gearbox is never integrated with the engine. It is easier to handle the engine and the gearbox separately.

Of course ebikes shouldnt actually need gears, theres a motor waiting to be invented that can climb a mountain at 2mph and cruise at 20mph.

That might work on a mini-motorcycle you are riding, Charge, but gearing is necessary for us, pedallers

 

[scrambler]

Of course ebikes shouldnt actually need gears, theres a motor waiting to be invented that can climb a mountain at 2mph and cruise at 20mph.

An ebike does not need gear for the motor if the motor is powerfull enough. I have a high power ebike, and is can go from zero 40mph on a single gear with full torque all along the way. Most e motorcycle have no gears.

The main use for gears on an ebike is to help maintain a comfortable pedaling cadence at all speed, and on low power ebikes, to optimize the motor power delivery.

On my hi power ebike, I have a dual drive train, the motor drive train has a single gear ratio. The pedaling drive train has an IGH that only sees the pedaling power so I can adapt my pedaling cadence to be more comfortable at all speeds.

 

[scrambler]

Even in a traditional car, the gearbox is never integrated with the engine. It is easier to handle the engine and the gearbox separately.


That might work on a mini-motorcycle you are riding, Charge, but gearing is necessary for us, pedallers

On a pinion MGU or a Valeo, integration just means they are sold as one unit. but physically it is one electric motor and one gear box side by side.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I've used derailleurs my entire life, broke a few but by and large they do the job and are a cheap replacement. Or were a cheap replacement - that's why I think the MGU and other brand's similiar solutions will be adapted with emtbs because the new range of derailleurs are costing an arm and a leg and yet people are still having to replace broken or worn out drive train components regularly and people are pissed at these costs. And even though the derailleur has been around for decades (1930s campagnolo the first inventor?) Front derailleurs have also been around for decades and are now gone from mountain bikes. Likewise rim brakes - gone. 26" wheels - gone. And I can remember the fuss with the first full suspension mountain bikes - ugly, heavy and overly complex machines I thought they'd never catch on! Mountain biking thrives on new tech developments, has no loyalty or tradition like road racing so I think MGUs will be the next step. I don't see derailleurs ever disappearing - after all I still have front derailleurs on 2 of my bikes and rim brakes on one! But I can definitely see them becoming normal on emtbs sooner rather then later. Other bikes not so much - there is no real need and road bikes obsessed by weight and marginal gains will never go that direction plus the cost $$$$ for most bikes is prohibitive. Though if it's widely adapted in the mountain biking world expect to see it filtering over to other e bikes. Thats what seems to happen.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On a pinion MGU or a Valeo, integration just means they are sold as one unit. but physically it is one electric motor and one gear box side by side.

You cannot replace them separately.

Ras, I told you not once and not twice: I will be a happiest person in the world when you eventually become an owner of an e-bike with the technology you are advocating so much. Like, Pinion.MGU. Or, a Mahle X35/X20

 

[Rás Cnoic]

You cannot replace them separately.

Ras, I told you not once and not twice: I will be a happiest person in the world when you eventually become an owner of an e-bike with the technology you are advocating so much. Like, Pinion.MGU. Or, a Mahle X35/X20

I'm proudly not a fan boy of one single brand. Unlike your good self.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm proudly not a fan boy of one single brand. Unlike your good self.

You seem to love too many brands but own a Specialized
You have no reference point.

 

[scrambler]

You cannot replace them separately.

Do you know that for a fact ?

I am pretty sure that if the motor died, it would be repaired by just changing that part.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am pretty sure

Know or don't know?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just some facts to counter the ignorant luddite malice this thread has degenerated into:

1. The first derailleurs were built about 1905
2. The first internal gear hub patents for bicycles were filed in 1890
3. For that matter, electric motors were invented in the 1830s
4. Pinion gearboxes have been around for more than a decade and are well-thought-of and proven to be highly reliable and rugged. I own one on my acoustic bike and it is excellent.
5. Tout Terrain is not some shady startup reselling mass-produced Chinese bikes. It is a well-established German company selling high-quality touring bikes.

So anyone arguing that integrating 19th-century technologies into one unit is somehow dangerously advanced and risky is kind of in a bizarre place.
Sure, there will be some teething problems. But I am pretty confident that there won't be many and this technology will likely be a good fit for a lot of cyclists.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Just some facts to counter the ignorant luddite malice this thread has degenerated into:

1. The first derailleurs were built about 1905
2. The first internal gear hub patents for bicycles were filed in 1890
3. For that matter, electric motors were invented in the 1830s
4. Pinion gearboxes have been around for more than a decade and are well-thought-of and proven to be highly reliable and rugged. I own one on my acoustic bike and it is excellent.
5. Tout Terrain is not some shady startup reselling mass-produced Chinese bikes. It is a well-established German company selling high-quality touring bikes.

So anyone arguing that integrating 19th-century technologies into one unit is somehow dangerously advanced and risky is kind of in a bizarre place.
Sure, there will be some teething problems. But I am pretty confident that there won't be many and this technology will likely be a good fit for a lot of cyclists.

What he said

 

[Rás Cnoic]

You seem to love too many brands but own a Specialized
You have no reference point.

I own a Specialized - 2 actually my Vado SL and a 97 Rockhopper I've had since new. When did you first buy a Specialized Stefan?

I also own currently own a Salsa, a Ridgeback and have various old frames. Been owning bikes since I was a teen in the 80s and raced on road and off road, though pretty badly in fairness. But I love bikes.

E Bikes? I have only one. Don't need a second and can't really afford a second one, my kids and wife would straight up murder me. But I can read about them, I can be interested in them and on these pages I can discuss and learn more about new tech, interesting bikes and different approaches & broaden my mind and think what my next e bike will be. MGU? EMTB? Road bike? Hub gear? Thinking of converting an old Marin frame into a Hub gear pub bike actually, that might be fun and as a tinkering low budget project I might not be immediately assassinated by the kids.

What is your point?