No throttle and no way home today... :(

[Djangodog]

Who needs toilet paper. It is why most bikes have the throttle on the left. An ideal place to wipe it.
The coastal folks are more like the Europeans than the flyover places. Since the thread has gone to Shite anyway, this road bike came in. My neighbor saw it yesterday an said it belongs in the landfill and isn't worth touching. It is getting a café bar that will be wrapped tomorrow and the pedals will arrive then. I cleaned the inside of the frame and mixed touchup colors. The aluminum was black. I would rather ride a bike like this across town than a heavy throttle bike. Bikes like this are fast. 45 Kph, no problem.

A steel, brazed lug frame, downtube shifters and a frame pump boss. What’s not to love? I would still ride my old Bianchi Alloro. A carbon fork would have made it a little more compliant, but I rode some of my earlier centuries on it, 53/39 running to a 12/23. I still miss that bike, but my knees would be screaming. Still, those bikes had style. It was Celeste Green of course.

I still prefer to go Italian when it comes to road bikes and saddles, although my Made in USA LeMond, (great guy, great rider, humble champion and the “only” American TDF Champion. And he apparently did it in a “clown suit”, maybe someone can poke some fun at him), Tête-de-Course Ti/Carbon frame still hangs in the garage waiting for the inevitable re-build. Wilier is uncommon in the US, but very respected in Europe.

Maybe I will buy a Ducati e-bike some day, but I would prefer something from Moto Guzzi, (except that they don’t make an e-bike). Dreaming costs nothing.

I agree, the thread went to Shite a long time ago, so we may as well change the subject a little. Just Iike a business expense dinner, you only have to say “throttle” to make the post valid.

Not a rail trail, (it’s a current Amtrak rail line). Ironically, the engine has a proper “throttle”, and that’s fine with me as long as it stays off the rail trail, (claimed grandfather clause or not!!!). They still run steam locomotives through here in the fall and around Christmas.

 

[Gionnirocket]

As Djangodog said, Europeans are cycling people. While many Americans are all for power and mostly drive automatic transmission cars, Europeans often do with less power, and mostly drive manual transmission cars. (Take Italy, a G7 -- montane -- country where most of citizens just love driving small cars). The concept of the derailleur is as natural for an European as the mother's milk. And no, no European despite of their age has any issues to move their bike from the intersection.

Mschwett was quoting the 2019 e-bike sales figures. He forgot the number of e-bikes has been accumulating for several years now. Often quoted figure is "10 times as many e-bikes in Europe as in the whole North America". And no throttle here.

If any of you has a chance to travel to any montane area of Europe, you will notice there are almost only e-bikes there. And no throttle.

The ONLY reason you don't see throttles in the EU is because it is not allowed. YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!!!

And same goes for small manual transmission cars which trend to be more affordable and somewhat better on gas mileage. Given the lower standard of living, higher price of gas and over crowded tight roads the choice of small manual transmission cars is the only reasonable choice... So don't romanticize the fact when the average European really has no choice.

 

[J.R.]

I see a lot of value in the personal stories posted here from nearly everyone. I haven't contributed here in about a year so I don't know the back story of the acrimony between the posters. I haven't read the entire thread either, just the past few pages.

I found @Djangodog story of recovery from serious physical disability a moving story and similar to mine. @tomjasz keeps going and I know he's not a speedster, a helpful DIY'er. @6zfshdb rides to explore, the same backyard as I. @Stefan Mikes knows a good torque sensing bike as good as anyone, he knows what a crappy one is as well.

I started riding ebikes in 2014, that's when I joined this forum. I bought what I thought was a solid bike with a large battery (bike 500 watts, battery 16 amp hour), it is what is now known as a class 2. The bike cost 2 grand. I didn't consider that cheap or crappy, the bike still works today with more than 14k miles.

We here didn't care what you rode back then. I don't remember anyone insulting someone over a throttle, pro or con. We did care that the bikes were basically bikes and not mopeds or motorcycles, there were plenty of forums for them. I never wanted to know anyone's politics and that's why I disappeared a year ago. I cancelled cable TV in December 2019, politics ruin everything.

I've spent my life on 2 wheels. Motorcycles, bicycles and ebikes. In the 90's I taught the motorcycle experienced rider safety course. That'll wake you up to whether people have good riding skills

Something I have only shared minimally here a couple of times to people with similar issues is my physical problems. I've had a number of spine surgeries that left me with 4 fused vertebrae, 2 titanium rods that span them, four bolts and donated bone and a titanium cage. Funny note for all you backyard mechanics, the "cage" looks like one of those springs from old school automobile drum brakes. I've had some other "procedures", but you get the point. A lot of us in the same boat. Cycling was always the thing that rehabilitated me. The last major surgery was the worst; gained 40 pounds while recovering over a few years.

Cycling is what got me back. Ebikes weren't on my radar in early 2014. I was riding a bicycle about 1700 to 2k miles a year and I was shopping for something lighter, easier to ride. Something that would allow me more miles to explore more, commute more. I found this little, very new website, YT channel and community oriented site called EBR. That was January or February 2014. I watched, I read, but wasn't ready to join the cheaters of the cycling community. By early summer I was coming around a little, but ebikes weren't yet legal in PA.

Reading everything you people posted, watching everything Court uploaded, I was seeing the reason behind ebikes. PA was on the verge of legalizing ebikes, so...... when the law was passed I placed an order for a good solid bike. It had a throttle Legal here.

There was no such thing as classes for years. Pedelecs, I don't think was even a word. Because of my experience as a spinner, I cycled, but I used throttle due to the bike's very rudimentary controller. My first ebike year I rode more than 6000 miles, in all sorts of weather.

In 2015 I bought a torque sensing, 350 watt bike and knew this was the answer for me. I have tens of thousands of ebike miles now.

I remember when @vincent (the OP) joined this forum with her Cemoto bike. Google that one. Very modest bike. She's now owned more ebikes than any other poster in this thread. All kinds, all drives. Much respect for her experience.

As some of the more tenured members here know, my local county trails banned ebikes a few years ago. 2017, 2018? There's a thread here. It took a group of us 2 years to get that overturned. We wanted to get class 1 and 2 included, but that was a nonstarter. You need to read that thread to understand, I've gone on too long as it is. Just one note, we couldn't get a passionate pro throttle rider to come on board.

I am a big proponent of good assist, so that's what I like and ride. I am not against throttles, some people wouldn't chance getting an ebike without one. Some have to start somewhere and they can't or won't spend the money on something with torque assist when they don't know whether they will use it or not. I do wish the passion expressed here was in the rooms where regulators meet.

I say to my good friends that I'm 10 years younger than I was 10 years ago. Chronic pain everyday is somewhat a new normal and somewhat alleviated by all the activity. I take no prescription meds. Spinning, I lost the weight slowly awhile ago. And I still ride my 2014 "class 2" once in awhile on the country roads where I live.

 

[PedalUma]

@Djangodog, These are what some eBikes look like around here. The final one has a throttle. It is what the guy wanted. The first has a battery that slides in the cage.

 

[Djangodog]

I see a lot of value in the personal stories posted here from nearly everyone. I haven't contributed here in about a year so I don't know the back story of the acrimony between the posters. I haven't read the entire thread either, just the past few pages.

I found @Djangodog story of recovery from serious physical disability a moving story and similar to mine. @tomjasz keeps going and I know he's not a speedster, a helpful DIY'er. @6zfshdb rides to explore, the same backyard as I. @Stefan Mikes knows a good torque sensing bike as good as anyone, he knows what a crappy one is as well.

I started riding ebikes in 2014, that's when I joined this forum. I bought what I thought was a solid bike with a large battery (bike 500 watts, battery 16 amp hour), it is what is now known as a class 2. The bike cost 2 grand. I didn't consider that cheap or crappy, the bike still works today with more than 14k miles.

We here didn't care what you rode back then. I don't remember anyone insulting someone over a throttle, pro or con. We did care that the bikes were basically bikes and not mopeds or motorcycles, there were plenty of forums for them. I never wanted to know anyone's politics and that's why I disappeared a year ago. I cancelled cable TV in December 2019, politics ruin everything.

I've spent my life on 2 wheels. Motorcycles, bicycles and ebikes. In the 90's I taught the motorcycle experienced rider safety course. That'll wake you up to whether people have good riding skills

Something I have only shared minimally here a couple of times to people with similar issues is my physical problems. I've had a number of spine surgeries that left me with 4 fused vertebrae, 2 titanium rods that span them, four bolts and donated bone and a titanium cage. Funny note for all you backyard mechanics, the "cage" looks like one of those springs from old school automobile drum brakes. I've had some other "procedures", but you get the point. A lot of us in the same boat. Cycling was always the thing that rehabilitated me. The last major surgery was the worst; gained 40 pounds while recovering over a few years.

Cycling is what got me back. Ebikes weren't on my radar in early 2014. I was riding a bicycle about 1700 to 2k miles a year and I was shopping for something lighter, easier to ride. Something that would allow me more miles to explore more, commute more. I found this little, very new website, YT channel and community oriented site called EBR. That was January or February 2014. I watched, I read, but wasn't ready to join the cheaters of the cycling community. By early summer I was coming around a little, but ebikes weren't yet legal in PA.

Reading everything you people posted, watching everything Court uploaded, I was seeing the reason behind ebikes. PA was on the verge of legalizing ebikes, so...... when the law was passed I placed an order for a good solid bike. It had a throttle Legal here.

There was no such thing as classes for years. Pedelecs, I don't think was even a word. Because of my experience as a spinner, I cycled, but I used throttle due to the bike's very rudimentary controller. My first ebike year I rode more than 6000 miles, in all sorts of weather.

In 2015 I bought a torque sensing, 350 watt bike and knew this was the answer for me. I have tens of thousands of ebike miles now.

I remember when @vincent (the OP) joined this forum with her Cemoto bike. Google that one. Very modest bike. She's now owned more ebikes than any other poster in this thread. All kinds, all drives. Much respect for her experience.

As some of the more tenured members here know, my local county trails banned ebikes a few years ago. 2017, 2018? There's a thread here. It took a group of us 2 years to get that overturned. We wanted to get class 1 and 2 included, but that was a nonstarter. You need to read that thread to understand, I've gone on too long as it is. Just one note, we couldn't get a passionate pro throttle rider to come on board.

I am a big proponent of good assist, so that's what I like and ride. I am not against throttles, some people wouldn't chance getting an ebike without one. Some have to start somewhere and they can't or won't spend the money on something with torque assist when they don't know whether they will use it or not. I do wish the passion expressed here was in the rooms where regulators meet.

I say to my good friends that I'm 10 years younger than I was 10 years ago. Chronic pain everyday is somewhat a new normal and somewhat alleviated by all the activity. I take no prescription meds. Spinning, I lost the weight slowly awhile ago. And I still ride my 2014 "class 2" once in awhile on the country roads where I live.

It’s very nice to hear your story. I agree with everything that you said and I think that we could learn a lot from your experience and civility.

This is my first season on an e-bike and I am a lifelong cyclist, so my experience is mixed and in many ways not directly applicable.

I hope that you are made to feel welcome. The social climate in general has become toxic. I hope that the pendulum swings back, but I will not hold my breath.

Anyway, for what it’s worth, welcome back.

 

[Djangodog]

The ONLY reason you don't see throttles in the EU is because it is not allowed. YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!!!

And same goes for small manual transmission cars which trend to be more affordable and somewhat better on gas mileage. Given the lower standard of living, higher price of gas and over crowded tight roads the choice of small manual transmission cars is the only reasonable choice... So don't romanticize the fact when the average European really has no choice.

Standard of Living by Country | Quality of Life by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

Having spent a lot of time as a cyclist in Eastern Europe, I can tell you that people love bikes and have a standard of living that is in many ways higher than that of the USA, (and you won’t die or lose everything because you can’t afford healthcare).

Throttles make the e-bike too close to an electric moped for my taste, and I think that many Europeans would agree, but I will ask Stefan before asking an American. Telling Stefan what Europeans think is….. Sorry, I can’t think of anything that fills that space that would be helpful.

I don’t drink. I just don’t like playing with fire. My choice after having a front row seat watching my ex-wife go down that path. A few years after taking my last drink, a recovering alcoholic co-worker said that I needed AA. He couldn’t accept that someone could see the damage and just decide it wasn’t worth the risk. The truth is that I don’t like the taste or the buzz, but because he needed AA and couldn’t imagine anyone not feeling desperate for a drink, I never convinced him that for me, it was no different than the reason that I don’t smoke pot. I just don’t want to. I think that my life is better with a clear head and keeping my emotions in check.

Just as with the throttle issue, I say that I have no opinion as long as it conforms to laws and is used only where it is allowed. Don’t drive under the influence and don’t ride a class 2 bike with a functioning throttle on a path that doesn’t allow them.

That seems reasonable, but it also gets some pretty angry. Having a hissy fit on this forum won’t change that. And violating the rules has the potential of banning all e-bikes.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Standard of Living by Country | Quality of Life by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

Having spent a lot of time as a cyclist in Eastern Europe, I can tell you that people love bikes and have a standard of living that is in many ways higher than that of the USA, (and you won’t die or lose everything because you can’t afford healthcare).

Throttles make the e-bike too close to an electric moped for my taste, and I think that many Europeans would agree, but I will ask Stefan before asking an American. Telling Stefan what Europeans think is….. Sorry, I can’t think of anything that fills that space that would be helpful.

I don’t drink. I just don’t like playing with fire. My choice after having a front row seat watching my ex-wife go down that path. A few years after taking my last drink, a recovering alcoholic co-worker said that I needed AA. He couldn’t accept that someone could see the damage and just decide it wasn’t worth the risk. The truth is that I don’t like the taste or the buzz, but because he needed AA and couldn’t imagine anyone not feeling desperate for a drink, I never convinced him that for me, it was no different than the reason that I don’t smoke pot. I just don’t want to. I think that my life is better with a clear head and keeping my emotions in check.

Just as with the throttle issue, I say that I have no opinion as long as it conforms to laws and is used only where it is allowed. Don’t drive under the influence and don’t ride a class 2 bike with a functioning throttle on a path that doesn’t allow them.

I'm not suggesting that the Euro way of life doesn't have benefits... I've been there many times and appreciate much of what they do. But my point was that not having a choice or one that is expensive and/or not practical really isn't a choice. This opinion is based on my experience there and many discussions with friends and family there.

 

[Djangodog]

I'm not suggesting that the Euro way of life doesn't have benefits... I've been there many times and appreciate much of what they do. But my point was that not having a choice or one that is expensive and/or not practical really isn't a choice. This opinion is based on my experience there and many discussions with friends and family there.

Fair enough. People are of course individuals and never going to agree with everything.

I started seeing e-bikes in the Czech Republic around 2009. I haven’t been back since 2019, so my experience is a bit dated. I did ride a lot while there, but most of the e-bike riders that I met were actually Germans and riding Trekking bikes. Meeting a few Germans on their Trekking bikes and having no conversations about throttles makes my knowledge of their throttle opinion zero, but they seemed very happy just the same. Most of the Czechs that I rode with were pretty tight with the Korunas, (not big on extravagances). Still, I bet that there is a percentage that would like a throttle if it was available. The sample size and value of my data are poor at best.

It might to nice to hear more from some actual Europeans, but those opinions would probably be as mixed as ours. My bet is that most riders with a long history of conventional cycling would prefer a class 1 or possibly a class 3 because cycling is an old love but made easier by the pedal assist despite an aging or compromised body. Those bikes tend to look, feel and handle more like a conventional bike as well. I would also bet that most riders that want a throttle are people that are newer to cycling and don’t have that history or love of it, want to sit very upright or maybe they have a physical limitation that makes the throttle a necessary accessory. Some may want to get around because they lost their license, (unless they lost that license for health reasons, I don’t really want them motoring down a bike path or road on a throttled e-bike either, talk about a hazard. If the DMV considers you unsafe to be on the road, you are unsafe to be on bike paths, endangering children, elderly and everyone else).

My point, made over and over is that I really don’t care If someone wants a throttle. I’ll still wave to them. I won’t turn them in. I will treat them like any other person on a bicycle. In the case of my step daughter, I will still love and respect her.

What I do care about is people risking the privileges of others because they don’t like or agree with the law, and decide that they are going to break that law and risk the privilages of those that don’t break the law. I do feel that if you can prove that you have a walking disability that makes riding without a throttle nearly impossible, then a special certificate of some kind could be issued. If you cannot pedal at all, then it is really an e-scooter and we can have a whole new thread.

 

[Jason Knight]

As a matter of fact, a LOT of people use them (most?) on EVERY start, long enough to get their balance during those first few feet the bike starts moving.

VERY handy when you forgot to downshift before a stop, or didn't have the TIME to because of an emergency stop. More so when you just have to get your blasted tuchas out of the way faster.

And it's why the pedants saying "nobody should need a throttle' need a boot up their backside just like the 'who needs more than 250 watts" jerks fortunate enough to live in places with infrastructure, long flat runs, and even more fortunate to have no mobility issues.

Twist throttles are to be used with something that has a clutch only. No clutch, no twist throttle. Too many people have lost their balance and gone on trips into the woods prior to getting the vehicle/bike under control, myself included (on a very high powered ATV).

Hence why I don't like twist handles on bikes. Not even for shifting. It's too easy in a panic to just grab the wrong thing even if you're an experienced rider.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Let me start with saying, I do not refer to any posts of people I chose to Ignore, and who constantly add insult to insult without any reason.
-----------
Django mentioned Czech people. A hilly country with excellent system of bike paths everywhere. The Czech are in love with their "kolo" (lit. wheel, a bicycle). It is so natural for them to adopt e-bikes! On the other hand, Czechs are frugal people. They ride, for instance, German Haibike, Austrian KTM or Polish Kross, as these brands can offer e-bikes at reasonable prices. Not forgetting about the Czech brands such as Lovelec. Now, fancy the highest village of the Czech Republic, Mala Upa located in Czech/Polish Giant Mountains. A morning. Cyclobuses from Trutnov arrive. The driver opens the side doors of the trailer and you see what? Every bus has brought as many as 32 e-bikes. Hardly any traditional bike there. Meanwhile, you can see a die-hard roadie huffing & puffing, as he got the whole way up from Trutnov pedalling (as I and brother did on our e-bikes ourselves).

A cyclobus; and e-bikes ridden by Czech people.

A glass of light beer is allowed for a cyclist in the Czech Republic; it is the part of the lifestyle.

The Polish side? The mountains are full of e-bikes. No cyclobuses but highly located places are full of e-bike rental.

Two years ago, we could spot some e-bikes ridden by Czech people, none on the Polish side.

No throttle, and people just ride on. Why? Because nobody thinks the throttle belongs to cycling. Throttle is the motorcycle thing. Or, e-scooter thing.

There are exceptions, I'm talking of Poland now. You can spot a local "fast'n'furious" everywhere. You can see a guy riding a throttle-equipped (illegal) fat folder e-bike on a bike path; the guy I could spot looked so out-of-place there he felt as if he was ashamed himself; and he rode very slowly, I give him that. Food couriers often ride throttle e-bikes (illegal) in Polish cities. Also cretins riding illegal e-scooters and e-whatnot at high speed can be spotted here.

I was disappointed about cycling in London. (My personal view is the UK is not Europe anymore). Half of the cyclists were traditional roadies (fine!) but most of the other were riding "e-bikes" of the type more to be found in the U.S. than in Europe. Well, London is a special place.

P.S. I will be in Frankfurt/Main next week and will report what I have found there.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Let me start with saying, I do not refer to any posts of people I chose to Ignore, and who constantly add insult to insult without any reason.
-----------
Django mentioned Czech people. A hilly country with excellent system of bike paths everywhere. The Czech are in love with their "kolo" (lit. wheel, a bicycle). It is so natural for them to adopt e-bikes! On the other hand, Czechs are frugal people. They ride, for instance, German Haibike, Austrian KTM or Polish Kross, as these brands can offer e-bikes at reasonable prices. Not forgetting about the Czech brands such as Lovelec. Now, fancy the highest village of the Czech Republic, Mala Upa located in Czech/Polish Giant Mountains. A morning. Cyclobuses from Trutnov arrive. The driver opens the side doors of the trailer and you see what? Every bus has brought as many as 32 e-bikes. Hardly any traditional bike there. Meanwhile, you can see a die-hard roadie huffing & puffing, as he got the whole way up from Trutnov pedalling (as I and brother did on our e-bikes ourselves).

View attachment 132305View attachment 132306
A cyclobus; and e-bikes ridden by Czech people.
View attachment 132307
A glass of light beer is allowed for a cyclist in the Czech Republic; it is the part of the lifestyle.

The Polish side? The mountains are full of e-bikes. No cyclobuses but highly located places are full of e-bike rental.

View attachment 132308
Two years ago, we could spot some e-bikes ridden by Czech people, none on the Polish side.

No throttle, and people just ride on. Why? Because nobody thinks the throttle belongs to cycling. Throttle is the motorcycle thing. Or, e-scooter thing.

There are exceptions, I'm talking of Poland now. You can spot a local "fast'n'furious" everywhere. You can see a guy riding a throttle-equipped (illegal) fat folder e-bike on a bike path; the guy I could spot looked so out-of-place there he felt as he was ashamed himself; and he rode very slowly, I give him that. Food couriers often ride throttle e-bikes (illegal) in Polish cities. Also cretins riding illegal e-scooters and e-whatnot at high speed can be spotted here.

I was disappointed about cycling in London. (My personal view is the UK is not Europe anymore). Half of the cyclists were traditional roadies (fine!) but most of the other were riding "e-bikes" of the type more to be found in the U.S. than in Europe. Well, London is a special place.

P.S. I will be in Frankfurt/Main next week and will report what I have found there.

!!!WOW!!!
You were able to post photos of bicycles and then people on and next to bicycles in Europe.
I find that simply amazing... Who knew!?!?
Please next time ask them for their Strava stats to complete our education!

And maybe you should get down on your knees and show the Chinese some respect (or at least a good time:-O) as I dont see Poland on this list... but I do see the US and UK

 

[Djangodog]

Let me start with saying, I do not refer to any posts of people I chose to Ignore, and who constantly add insult to insult without any reason.
-----------
Django mentioned Czech people. A hilly country with excellent system of bike paths everywhere. The Czech are in love with their "kolo" (lit. wheel, a bicycle). It is so natural for them to adopt e-bikes! On the other hand, Czechs are frugal people. They ride, for instance, German Haibike, Austrian KTM or Polish Kross, as these brands can offer e-bikes at reasonable prices. Not forgetting about the Czech brands such as Lovelec. Now, fancy the highest village of the Czech Republic, Mala Upa located in Czech/Polish Giant Mountains. A morning. Cyclobuses from Trutnov arrive. The driver opens the side doors of the trailer and you see what? Every bus has brought as many as 32 e-bikes. Hardly any traditional bike there. Meanwhile, you can see a die-hard roadie huffing & puffing, as he got the whole way up from Trutnov pedalling (as I and brother did on our e-bikes ourselves).

View attachment 132305View attachment 132306
A cyclobus; and e-bikes ridden by Czech people.
View attachment 132307
A glass of light beer is allowed for a cyclist in the Czech Republic; it is the part of the lifestyle.

The Polish side? The mountains are full of e-bikes. No cyclobuses but highly located places are full of e-bike rental.

View attachment 132308
Two years ago, we could spot some e-bikes ridden by Czech people, none on the Polish side.

No throttle, and people just ride on. Why? Because nobody thinks the throttle belongs to cycling. Throttle is the motorcycle thing. Or, e-scooter thing.

There are exceptions, I'm talking of Poland now. You can spot a local "fast'n'furious" everywhere. You can see a guy riding a throttle-equipped (illegal) fat folder e-bike on a bike path; the guy I could spot looked so out-of-place there he felt as he was ashamed himself; and he rode very slowly, I give him that. Food couriers often ride throttle e-bikes (illegal) in Polish cities. Also cretins riding illegal e-scooters and e-whatnot at high speed can be spotted here.

I was disappointed about cycling in London. (My personal view is the UK is not Europe anymore). Half of the cyclists were traditional roadies (fine!) but most of the other were riding "e-bikes" of the type more to be found in the U.S. than in Europe. Well, London is a special place.

P.S. I will be in Frankfurt/Main next week and will report what I have found there.

I generally rode the Moravian region, but also rode in Western Slovakia and near Brno. I do miss the cycling network. Thanks for the pictures and the report.

You brought up some good points about e-scooters. An e-bike with a throttle probably makes a good commuter, being able to save time and get through intersections more efficiently. The rider can get to work without breaking a sweat and has also reduced congestion and polluted less.

An e-scooter will obtain some of those goals as well, but remains a street vehicle and is of course not allowed in a bike lane or bike path. A disabled person that can ride a class 2 e-bike could probably ride some e-scooters, but be limited to roads.

The reasons for keeping the e-scooter out of the bike lane and off the bike path seems obvious. The have no pedals and they are motor driven. They are capable of going faster than the speed limits on a lot of bike paths, but can be ridden just fine at 15 mph. They also tend to weigh more.

Now take AHicks for example. His combined weight is close to 400 pounds, so he has as much mass as many e-scooters and rider. His throttle can also take him well above a 15 mph trail speed limit. On top of that, his bike is not class legal. He still thinks that he should be able to ride where a class one can ride, even though he presents the same danger as a lighter person on an e-scooter.

I call this out because I understand that an e-scooter has virtues as a commuter, and a class 2 e-bike can be even more virtuous, but these same features can make them hazardous on a bike path.

A throttle on an e-bike has it’s advantages and usefulness in certain applications, but it is a bad fit in others. He obviously doesn’t like to hear it, but a rider like AHicks, at 72 years old, weighing 315 pounds, and riding a hopped-up, throttled e-bike, (rider and equipment close to 400 pounds), presents the same potential hazard as the e-scooter with a rider that is not morbidly obese.

The point is that a class 2 e-bike is basically an unregistered, uninsured and slower, (generally), e-scooter with pedals.

The argument that this level of e-bike should be allowed to ride in bike lanes or on bike paths is absurd.

 

[vincent]

I ride class 2 bikes everywhere and own a bafang ultra bike like AHicks I am regularly blown off mtn biking trails by people on analog bikes and class 1

plus all the road bikers pass me like I am standing still half the time on the street or bike path

this is like saying a Ferrari has to be driven 100+ mph all the time and a ridiculous argument

you ride responsibly or you don't , end of story
and I definitely ride more responsibly than half the class 1 and class 3 bike riders on here
I am way beyond courteous all the time mainly because it is no big deal to get my bikes easily started again and up to speed with a throttle!!!

as far as I can tell you don't own a throttle bike, in one sentence you say you are fine whatever anybody rides and then critique AHicks???

i have ridden the loop bike path in tucson for years, all ebikes are illegal on the loop does not matter the class
the majority of dangerous bike riders are road bikers- the people you tout who want the real bike feeling and buy low power euro drives
these guys are flat out dangerous whether they are analog or ebike- they fly

i am regularly stopping or going 4mph behind dog walkers and slower people on the loop and happy to do it
have several friends into ebikes, all class 2 of some type or other - all of us are terrified and had close calls with road bikers on the loop bike path

we can't get a damn speed limit on the loop - which we need- classes of ebikes matter not at all


AHicks rides like I do, casual, trying to get some exercise it does not matter what bike he is on, he will be responsible

 

[Stefan Mikes]

An e-scooter will obtain some of those goals as well, but remains a street vehicle and is of course not allowed in a bike lane or bike path

It has changed in many European countries. For instance, e-scooters (limited to 20 km/h) are allowed wherever a bike is in Germany, Poland, or Finland.
I respect a legal e-scooter as a micro-mobility vehicle. Provided good weather, it is invaluable for getting from A to B in cities on my business trips. Or, to have some sightseeing.

E-scooter is one of the most popular micro-mobility vehicles in Helsinki, Finland. (Otherwise, Finland is yet another cycling country).

 

[Djangodog]

Zero to expert on one eBike in one partial season. Impressive achievement!

I never said that I was an expert on e-bikes. I have read the laws, US, every state, local to where I ride and European. I have built high level mountain and road bikes including lacing up my own wheels, a good friend had a high end shop and he taught me well. I now longer have access to his wheel building equipment, but I do have everything that I need to do anything else on a bike. I do all of my own maintainable and upgrades. I was also a NORBA member back in the early 1990s and I raced XC. I have ridden 12 Imperial centuries, 1 double Metric Century, countless Metric cenuries, and I have been a passionate cyclist more than 40 year, and recreational rider since I was a kid. I used to ride my old one speed Columbia to get back and forth to my job on a farm. Seven twisty and hilly each way.

I understand and use trail and road etiquette. Before there was “range anxiety” and ”range management” there was energy, nutritional and fluid management. I still have very good bike handling skills and my background as a mechanical engineer helps me to analyze equipment, but I still have a lot to learn regarding e-bikes, (mostly drives and the electronics). The bikes are pretty straight forward.

You can ride for ten years or more and still be as ignorant as you were the first day. Practice doesn’t make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. I still have a lot to learn and that was my main reason for joining this forum. All I’m going to learn from someone like AHicks or F n F is that they are people with no real respect for cycling and that if they don’t agree with certain laws, that the laws shouldn’t apply to them. Slapping some high performance upgrades onto an e-bike is hardly rocket science.

I started riding e-bikes so that I could ride with my wife and smell the roses a bit. I still go out on my Wilier Carbon Road bike. It is a different experience and the motivation is completely different. I never ride it on bike paths even though it would be legal. I prefer long rides on challenging roads. I love getting to the top of a big climb in my “clown suit”. It is very satisfying to achieve things like that with no assistance, especially after having injuries that were severe enough to make the doctor tell me that I would never walk without assistance. Fourteen months later, I rode the Prouty Century for Cancer Research. Yeah, I am very proud of that accomplishment. I was blessed with god’s mercy, stubbornness and a very high pain tolerance.

So, you are correct, this is my first year on an e-bike. I still ride the road bike, so I only have a little more than 1,000 miles on an ebike. On road bikes, I typically wore out 3 sets of tires a year. My class 1 e-bike is not really much different than my road bike, It is set up as a flat bar gravel bike, so that‘s different and the pedal assist makes some of our 20%+ grades very manageable. I rarely use the assist above eco. I like that my e-Bike rides and handles like a normal bike. I like that I can go anywhere that a conventional bike can go. I don’t like that some entitled yahoo can cause the restrictions to trickle down to those of us that comply with the rules.

I don’t have any objection to class 2 or class 3 e-bikes and I don’t pass any judgement on their riders. I do object to people riding them where they are not allowed and have been deemed dangerous. I object to someone that illegally modifies their bike and then rides it where it is not allowed. The thought of inexperienced elderly on a class 2 scares me less that a 11 year old riding one. I would at least hope that the older person has better judgement and experience And enough physical strength to handle the bike.

So to be clear, never claimed to be an expert. I am a very experienced cyclist and came here to learn and share. I have little to no patience with people that think that they are above the law and attack others for being law abiding, If you don’t think that a law is valid, get involved in the process instead of having a hissy fit on a forum. It might turn out that then law is actually valid and there for the common good.

If you want to debate laws and rules, you can go here: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-good-staying-within-the-legal-classes.50049/

Maybe a movement can be started. Maybe people will come to realize that bike and multi-use paths should be kept as safe as possible for the good of all rather than the fun of the few, (just kidding, that’s ridiculous, right?).

 

[Djangodog]

It has changed in many European countries. For instance, e-scooters (limited to 20 km/h) are allowed wherever a bike is in Germany, Poland, or Finland.
I respect a legal e-scooter as a micro-mobility vehicle. Provided good weather, it is invaluable for getting from A to B in cities on my business trips. Or, to have some sightseeing.

View attachment 132323
E-scooter is one of the most popular micro-mobility vehicles in Helsinki, Finland. (Otherwise, Finland is yet another cycling country).

Like e-bikes, e-scooters come in many flavors and like e-bikes, I’m guessing that they don’t all play well together.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

She's now owned more ebikes than any other poster in this thread. All kinds, all drives.

Kick me. A Specialized mid-drive, too?

 

[J.R.]

Kick me. A Specialized mid-drive, too?

I don't know, you'd have to ask. I don't think Specialized has the only refined drive system. I do know Vincent has owned many top brands, European brands and she doesn't promote all the bikes she's owned.

A completely unconnected and general comment I've made in the past. I'm not and have never been brand sensitive; I'm not a "fan". I spend money on the brands I want and none of them pay me an ambassador fee to promote them. So I don't. I wouldn't anyway. I'll answer direct questions about a bike I've owned or know. I might say I think an eMTB or a city bike, etc. will likely suit someone's needs best. Or a mid drive of hub might work well, but brands don't pay me to promote them. And I don't want any responsibility when it goes wrong. It doesn't bother me that some do promote bikes and brands though.

I like a quality assist that feels natural. Is natural in an ebike possible? Doesn't really matter, we like what we like. I also wish riders would advocate for the laws and regulations they want in their communities, rather than ignore the laws. I'm not the ebike cop though. It took a fair amount of work to get ebikes allowed on the trails and paths here. They allow class 1 on the MUPS here and a slightly stricter regulation on state owned trails, class 1, limited to 75 pounds. I'm actually okay with all that, some are not. I wanted to see class 2 allowed on MUPS because I see mostly gray hairs on class 2. They aren't riding fast. I wish they would come to the regulatory meetings and advocate for them. I'm a gray hair... oh, no that's Santa... I do have a white goatee.

Since we got class 1 ebikes allowed on the rail trail, the breakdown is something like 60% class 2, 15% heavyweight power fat bikes (class 4?) and the rest class 1 and 3. Hard to tell the difference, as they have no throttle and I don't see many going over 20. Tons of folding lectric bikes. Used to see a lot of Rads, but lectrics seemed to take over.

I'm not the ebike police. Most are riding no faster than I am and the local trails are very sociable. We have a lot of rail trails, the most in the country and the 3rd most miles. What will happen in the future? Will they ban them again due to people not following the rules? I don't know. We feel we did our bit for two years. Personally I just want to enjoy my bikes and my trails. I would consider joining a movement to keep them legal, but I won't spearhead it again.

I don't want to argue about throttles. Court named this a community. Are we? I've met many of the members of this forum and talked on the phone with several others, including our founder. All of us have different bikes, different likes, different lives, but you know what? I've liked them all. Words on a page say very little about people.

Back in 2015 EBR members did this:

Anyone here joined the National Bike Challenge?

www.nationalbikechallenge.org Log your miles, earn prizes and respect ;-)

electricbikereview.com

Fun times.

 

[vincent]

No I have not owned specialized but have ridden them and other brose bikes and think the brose motor is my favorite out of the euro type drives

If I had an extra $6000 and more space would probably have one in my garage

I have owned 2 Yamaha mid drives that I loved and have ridden Bosch bikes

Definitely think there is a time and place for low power mid drives just like all the other bikes with or without throttles

 

[Rexlion]

The man lives in Michigan and Florida, so there are no mountains and many of the Michigan hills can be avoided.

Where's the fun in avoiding all the hills in Michigan, when one has an ebike that can handle hills with aplomb? I could mention the Porcupine Mountains which are in MI btw, but I'll admit they are rather puny mountains compared to most.