New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[Gionnirocket]

Actually will come with a torque sensor which we're just refining.

Ripped off lmx? Lol. Ask Adam and Lucas about who gave them the idea for their first bike with dual chain and pedals. You may be surprised by the answer. I pitched them this back in 2015 when they were only focused on non-pedal bikes. We in fact even co-developed a model which later got discontinued but was the basis for all their future models.

Also if it makes you feel any better, lmx is yet to make a co-ax model bike which is what this is.

Is that how you got around THEIR patent?
In any event... They did it first... They did it better

 

[m@Robertson]

Perhaps I'm assuming too much based on bike chains. I suppose you're able to use a heavier duty chain and also dial in the alignment better which would also help.

They are using a 219H kart chain (as in racing go-kart) which is enormously strong. Expect it to break ... never.

I stole this comparison from the Electrek article on this motor today. Also, I have been using a kart chain on a 10,000 rpm motor I have on my enduro that puts out around 5 kw peak. No sign of either wear and nothing broken yet. Its been on since 2019.

 

[m@Robertson]

After we ripped off the LMX64 design

They weren't the first ones to do this. Jackshafts / left hand drive builds have been around for quite some time, but nobody - including LMX - has taken them to mass production.

Here's one done by Lightning Rods in 2019. Its got the usual ingredients. left drive, Kart chain, huge rear cog.

Lightning Rods

L-R Big Block swingarm drive for Enduro Electric Bike. Motorcycle performance in an 80 lb electric package. Bike build by Alan Hu, ERT.

www.facebook.com

If anything, LMX patented something thats been out in the wild for years. Probably added something new to the mix to get around the obvious prior art already within easy reach of anyone's google-fu.

 

[Deafcat]

Don't feed the trolls, get outta here already Gionne

PS, LMX makes nice stuff, I'm glad they're doing Dual drive too!!

 

[JRA]

Don't feed the trolls, get outta here already Gionne

PS, LMX makes nice stuff, I'm glad they're doing Dual drive too!!

Speaking of that is Neemantic still in the game? Last I saw was that UBCO, the Aussie Co. of the two wheel drive utility bike fame, was going to license a version?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Don't feed the trolls, get outta here already Gionne

Yes please, I'm already full on bs

PS, LMX makes nice stuff, I'm glad they're doing Dual drive too!! (FIRST)

They weren't the first ones to do this. Jackshafts / left hand drive builds have been around for quite some time, but nobody - including LMX - has taken them to mass production.

Here's one done by Lightning Rods in 2019. Its got the usual ingredients. left drive, Kart chain, huge rear cog.

Lightning Rods

L-R Big Block swingarm drive for Enduro Electric Bike. Motorcycle performance in an 80 lb electric package. Bike build by Alan Hu, ERT.

www.facebook.com

If anything, LMX patented something thats been out in the wild for years. Probably added something new to the mix to get around the obvious prior art already within easy reach of anyone's google-fu.

Still don't think a dual drive is a jackshaft by definition.

I guess the ebike dual drive setup is the wild west but their patent is dated 2017

Innovation at the heart of LMX technology
All your LMX 64s are equipped with a unique technology on the market, patented and validated by LMX since 2017 : a double freewheel transmission at the rear wheel.

https://lmxbikes.com/index.php/en/2021/04/09/focus-on-the-patented-lmx-double-transmission/

 

[scrambler]

Speaking of that is Neemantic still in the game? Last I saw was that UBCO, the Aussie Co. of the two wheel drive utility bike fame, was going to license a version?

Neematic is gone, they sold to UBCO, and the first thing UBCO did was get rid of the pedaling option of the bike, removing the Pinion gearbox.
And after 2 years they have still not release the FRX1 in the motorbike only version
So Sad

But recently Nicolai picked up their design for their EBoxx Ultra.

 

[Deafcat]

But recently Nicolai picked up their design for their EBoxx Ultra.

Right! exciting stuff, Nicolai are wild. Eboxx Ultra is a whole different weight class (120-150 lbs, and 10kW), hell of a bike no doubt, and suitably pricy!

Personally I prefer something much lighter, and bicycles are so versatile compared to dirt bikes (electric or not).

 

[m@Robertson]

Still don't think a dual drive is a jackshaft by definition.

Me neither. And looking at the additional pics on the Electrek article, that we didn't get here, it looks like I have potentially been misusing the term. Or not. Its hard to see how a single shaft (the spindle) can transmit power on one side but not on the other but that appears to be how its laid out. Whatever is going on is hidden inside the casing or I just flat out don't get how its working. Either is fine

Either way, left hand drives have been around for awhile, and if their 'innovation' is an extra freewheel, I can't imagine how that will hold up as left hand drives have been around since gasoline powered DIY contraptions.

 

[Deafcat]

Freewheels have also been around forever. We have one in the motor output-stack, I prefer this compared to, at the rear wheel (where it just adds weight to the rear end).

Freewheel functionality can also already be accomplished by the motor itself (under power, this is known as Electric Freewheeling, GRIN originally tipped me off to using this).

It works well in our ride testing, and pairs with the mechanical freewheel to further reduce drag while coasting.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Heavy on the hype and promises but..

You do realize all that can be PRE-ordered now is a Throttle only fat tire bike

 

[Deafcat]

I can't guarantee we'll be doing FS right away, but It's absolutely on our development forecast. Production priorities first and foremost with the simplest embodiment (hard-tail frames, XD system, perfect PAS).

 

[roshan]

Is that how you got around THEIR patent?
In any event... They did it first... They did it better

Have you even seen their patent? Lol
Perhaps look that up first.

 

[scrambler]

Freewheels have also been around forever. We have one in the motor output-stack, I prefer this compared to, at the rear wheel (where it just adds weight to the rear end).

Freewheel functionality can also already be accomplished by the motor itself (under power, this is known as Electric Freewheeling, GRIN originally tipped me off to using this).

It works well in our ride testing, and pairs with the mechanical freewheel to further reduce drag while coasting.

OK, so I guess this means there won't be any regen on the bike ever then.

 

[pennybags]

Just checking in after the initial hype of the video - here is what I can glean from an end user perspective.

Don't get me wrong - I am sure a LOT of dev effort went into this motor but I am honestly struggling to understand this product.

1. What what you described @Deafcat, at the moment this is like BBSHD, but without PAS of any form - so more like a Sur Ron? Is that correct ?
2. When you will have PAS - will it be cadence or torque sensing ? If it is external, then high likelihood it is cadence only. Is that correct?
3. The changing gears etc side (pedal side) is decoupled from the actual drive. So what's the point of even pretending to pedal? That medal doesn't really mean anything. Seems worse than even cadence sensing.


Can someone explain what this XD system is aiming to achieve ?

- for off road throttle only experience, this seems too complicated a system compared to Surron.
- for on road PAS experience, it seems more complicated and IMO worse than BBSHD (with 2000W ASI or Grin controllers).

I am still trying to figure out what the target market here is or what the actual utility of the motor is.

 

[roshan]

OK, so I guess this means there won't be any regen on the bike ever then.

No Regen planned at this time.

Just checking in after the initial hype of the video - here is what I can glean from an end user perspective.

Don't get me wrong - I am sure a LOT of dev effort went into this motor but I am honestly struggling to understand this product.

Let me try and answer below:

1. What what you described @Deafcat, at the moment this is like BBSHD, but without PAS of any form - so more like a Sur Ron? Is that correct ?

Currently, we're working on our cadence+torque sensor which will be offered as an option for those that want it. For others that just want throttle, we don't include PAS sensor.

Its quite different from Bbshd or Ultra as the motor power isn't transmitted through the bike gears. That's the biggest drawback of bbs or Ultra motors. You just can't shift fast enough through the gears when you engage the throttle and pedal.

Its also quite different from the Surron as you can actually adjust geometry and pedal the bike.

2. When you will have PAS - will it be cadence or torque sensing ? If it is external, then high likelihood it is cadence only. Is that correct?

Answered above.

3. The changing gears etc side (pedal side) is decoupled from the actual drive. So what's the point of even pretending to pedal? That medal doesn't really mean anything. Seems worse than even cadence sensing.

Your legs still feel the resistance of all bike gears just like you would on any bike. The only difference is that you can now use the throttle to get to higher speeds faster. When coupled with a PAS sensor, the ride is exhilarating. With no worries of broken chains or freehubs.

Can someone explain what this XD system is aiming to achieve ?

- for off road throttle only experience, this seems too complicated a system compared to Surron.
- for on road PAS experience, it seems more complicated and IMO worse than BBSHD (with 2000W ASI or Grin controllers).

I am still trying to figure out what the target market here is or what the actual utility of the motor is.

Hope my above explanation shed some light. PS; the first batch of XD bikes do indeed use ASI controllers with a few custom features. That being said, the motor is designed to be controller agnostic so we can always swap in a different controller as needed.

 

[pennybags]

Thanks @roshan.

I must say that I’m even more confused now. If I’m getting this right, this is effectively a light electric motorcycle / dirt bike motor in its current form for all intents and purposes. It has some bicycle components , and it’s different in the way that it is designed.

Future updates may include a torque / cadence sensor if there’s ever an on-road use case.

Looks exciting. Probably not for commuting or emtb use cases. I’m sure there’s a cargo use case and dirt bike use case as highlighted .

Kudos for trying something new. Good luck with the future

 

[TomD]

How power hungry is this motor? I assume you went with the 25ah external battery because you're gonna need it, but honestly that frame doesn't do much for me from a looks standpoint. Would be a lot sexier on a monte capro, I realize that's FS and might not have enough battery capacity, but would have been nice to see a more current / streamlined design like the duo.

 

[roshan]

Thanks @roshan.

I must say that I’m even more confused now. If I’m getting this right, this is effectively a light electric motorcycle / dirt bike motor in its current form for all intents and purposes. It has some bicycle components , and it’s different in the way that it is designed.

Future updates may include a torque / cadence sensor if there’s ever an on-road use case.

Looks exciting. Probably not for commuting or emtb use cases at the moment. I’m sure there’s a cargo use case and dirt bike use case as highlighted .

Kudos for trying something new. Good luck with the future

Definitely a new category of ebike
Customers would dictate the direction this product would evolve..

 

[roshan]

How power hungry is this motor? I assume you went with the 25ah external battery because you're gonna need it, but honestly that frame doesn't do much for me from a looks standpoint. Would be a lot sexier on a monte capro, I realize that's FS and might not have enough battery capacity, but would have been nice to see a more current / streamlined design like the duo.

With the first version, we want to get the drivetrain nailed. The way this is designed, the drivetrain could bolt on to any Ultra fat bike.
The motor is as hungry as the rider's wrist