New Juiced Bike Model: The Scrambler, fat 20" Wheels, Class 3, Double-Seater

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Have you heard of anyone ever getting prosecuted/cited for illegal ebikes in the US? I wonder what the real risk is especially for the kinds of bikes we'd ride - something that goes ~28-30 mph, looks like a bike and not a motorcycle, and doesn't look like a home-made time machine macguyvered together.

I haven't heard of people getting prosecuted, but I know in NY City they are confiscating ebikes by the hundreds in city-wide sweeps. It was in the news last week. I agree there is little risk in a well designed and built ebike, but the arguments against will come from the preconceptions by those who don't like even the idea of electrically powered bikes. Unless ebike advocates get out and influence the story we'll likely see more strict legislation than is necessary or proper.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

@JRA What you posted is incorrect and I don't know where you got it from. The state law is GS 20-4.01 and defines an electric-assisted bicycle as "Electric Assisted Bicycle. - A bicycle with two or three wheels that is equipped with a seat or saddle for use by the rider, fully operable pedals for human propulsion, and an electric motor of no more than 750 watts, whose maximum speed on a level surface when powered solely by such a motor is no greater than 20 miles per hour." It doesn't specify a top speed with pedal assist, so I was mistaken on the "up to 28 mph" part.

 

[Asher]

Thought I pasted this above but didn't.

" (3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096

After inconsiderate drivers and car-centric government officials, the bike industry itself may be the biggest impediment to the growth of tiny electric, vehicles, bikes, kick scooters and otherwise.

Some say the issue is MTB trail access, but if it is, regulate MTB bikes differently. For city road riding, I don't see much justification for a) power limits (separate from speed limits) and b) requiring people to pedal to reach a speed instead of a throttle. I can only guess it's the bike industry trying to protect it's own hide from new, throttle devices.

It's ridiculous how we've rushed to allow experimental wannabe autonomous vehicles on streets at 40+ mph, but we won't allow bikes with more than 1 horsepower.

There are also lots of cyclists who like the status quo, possibly because they never see themselves getting a pedelec and don't want to be endangered by them. Exposing them to pedelecs can help change that - they may get one or realize they're not as threatening as a fellow road user as they might seem. And more generally, more pedelecs means more cyclists means more recognition of cyclists and their need for legal protection.

While ebikeshare is set to boom, it's going to be irrelevant here, because it has no use for such fast bikes. It may even lobby against them, as a source of competition (renting vs owning your own bike). I believe that ebikeshare will become prolific enough that it will eat up much of the casual ebike market, and the ebike sales market with become more oriented towards speed pedelecs.

Thanks Chuck, figured as much, and that the main threat comes after crashing or getting cited for something else and it becomes a pile on, and a reason to blame you for an incident you didn't cause. "You had an illegal motor, therefore you are in the wrong for me rear ending you!"

 

[JRA]

@Bruce Arnold Not trying to be argumentative but how is it incorrect? 750w/20mph/Operable pedals is the same thing you posted? It was taken from the People for Bikes site but your post indicates that the Class laws are not in effect in NC and they still follow the Federal laws that have been in place for years.

MTB's aside, which seem to be drawing the most heat for sure, the ability to ride over 20mph while on roads and dealing with traffic without a sudden motor cutout at a certain speed to me is a safety feature. Sometimes that little extra can help to get you out of a difficult situation and also arguably into one as well.

 

[Asher]

@Bruce Arnold Not trying to be argumentative but how is it incorrect? 750w/20mph/Operable pedals is the same thing you posted? It was taken from the People for Bikes site but your post indicates that the Class laws are not in effect in NC and they still follow the Federal laws that have been in place for years.

MTB's aside, which seem to be drawing the most heat for sure, the ability to ride over 20mph while on roads and dealing with traffic without a sudden motor cutout at a certain speed to me is a safety feature. Sometimes that little extra can help to get you out of a difficult situation and also arguably into one as well.

Totally, and everyone recognizes how as a car driver, being able to temporarily break the speed limit to avert a crash can make us safer. And the EU is working on speed limiters that limit speed while allowing just that.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

@Bruce Arnold Not trying to be argumentative but how is it incorrect? 750w/20mph/Operable pedals is the same thing you posted? It was taken from the People for Bikes site but your post indicates that the Class laws are not in effect in NC and they still follow the Federal laws that have been in place for years.

The quote you copied said "maximum speed of 20 mph." That's the part that's incorrect. Maximum speed when powered by the motor alone is 20 mph. Two different things.

True that the law doesn't specify Class 1,2,3. So what? I'm not a lawyer and this isn't a legal proceeding. NC law allows ebikes that are equivalent to Class 3 as California defines it.

Also, geez, I wonder if you read the post. The URL I gave is the actual law. General Statutes, not a proposed bill. GS 20-4.01 went into effect in 2016. The People for Bikes site has been out of date as far as NC is concerned for almost 2 years.

 

[Asher]

So apparently there are three different names for this style of bike... And none of them are scrambler. Minibike, trail bike, and my favorite, tote goat.

I can already see it, a hot pink Juiced Tote. Matching streamers optional.

 

[Glenn-rod]

So apparently there are three different names for this style of bike... And none of them are scrambler. Minibike, trail bike, and my favorite, tote goat.

I can already see it, a hot pink Juiced Tote. Matching streamers optional.

 

[John from Connecticut]

Juiced has announced a new model, soon available for pre-order on Indiegogo.

View attachment 22165

It has 20" diameter wheels with 4" wide tires, and 750-1100 watts, depending on the model selected. It seats two. It has no rack or fenders pictured* and looks to have the 12.8ah battery as the stock option starting at $1499. It's got an upgraded, 1,500 lumen headlight.

*There is a city option, which may have different options.

My thoughts:

This bike looks super cool. I could see the extra seat working out great for people who like to tool around small towns with their friends a lot - especially beach areas. Also looks great for casual off-roading, and for using at festivals. Definitely has potential among the trendy crowd.

That said, I can't imagine you can pedal very hard with that geometry, which means fuel economy and range will be poorer than on say, the CCS and RCS. If you think of a spectrum of recreational <---> utility, this would definitely be on the recreational side for most people, with the CCS on the opposite side (not that it's not fun, but it doesn't make any design choices that sacrifice utility for recreation). Unlike the video, I don't see people riding this out to go off-roading, but putting it on the back of their car.

Also, this is a muuuch better use case for electrification for a beach cruiser. Unless casual pedaling is physically challenging for you, I never quite got the point of electrifying a bike just to ride along the beach where paths are packed and going fast is dangerous or impossible. Here, the motor lets you have a more relaxed posture, AND take on a second passenger with ease. I could see this bike being a huge hit at beach bike rental shops (hopefully they'd limit the speed to 15-20 mph).

I don't know these kinds of bikes well, but shouldn't there be a sissy bar? That's a bar on the back of the seat that the passenger can grab onto.

View attachment 22167

Also, lol at Juiced advertising a class 3 bike without helmets in the marketing...

View attachment 22166

I'd love to see Juiced put out a deluxe CCS , as a 'Stromer-killer.' That would really shake the industry up.

I was surprised they went the Indiegogo route, I thought they were beyond the crowdfunding phase as a company. But some companies use it as a marketing device, I guess. I'm sure there's enough demand for it to justify production regardless, so it doesn't seem necessary to test the waters via crowdfunding.

Link: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-scrambler-choose-your-e-bike-adventure/coming_soon/pies
Youtube:

In my opinion this is not an e-bike. It is an electric scooter or an electric mini bike as in the gas powered version we all had as kids. Don't get me wrong, I think the Scrambler is cool, fun and has a place and purpose. I just resent that it's referred to as an e-bike, in the traditional sense.

My guess is the Scrambler is being marketed as an e-bike and not a scooter or mini-bike etc is because that sounds juvenile - ish. Labeling it an e-bike adds a level of credibility to lesser product and also shifts the demographics upward.

I'm really concerned that products like this will be used anywhere and everywhere on trails ( non single track ) that traditional aka real e-bikes are ridden. Be honest, most of target market for the Scrambler will not be poking along on rails to trails etc responsibly....That's no fun, but I'm guessing they'll be there......I can hear the it now..." Oh, it's those little e-bikes again " : )

As for riding on the road with traffic, this is a rolling death trap.....because they are silent. All the little 50cc gas scooters that I see in traffic have little or next to no mufflers so they are really hard to miss.

John from CT

 

[Asher]

John, regarding noise, how is this any different from say the CCS?

I think it's too early to say that this thing is flypaper for assholes. It's not for me, but its not exactly on the level of a lifted pickup or anything.

If it didn't have pedals, it would be illegal in many places, or borderline unusable.

 

[jazz]

The more I look at the Scrambler, the more I am actually starting to like it. The problem I have is that I just don't see much practical use for it (at least for commuting). I don't see any advantage of it over an RCS or CCS or really any other ebike. The scrambler might be capable of 30+mph but using it as a "scooter" type at those continuous traffic speeds will eat up that 13aH battery in a matter of a few miles and not much more with the 19aH. Because it sits low, visibility will be an issue around other vehicles on the road especially since 50% or more are trucks and SUV's. Noise isn't that much of a factor because noise has little to do with safety even for motorcycles. Maybe off-road use is where the Scrambler will really shine? IDK

 

[John from Connecticut]

John, regarding noise, how is this any different from say the CCS?

I think it's too early to say that this thing is flypaper for assholes. It's not for me, but its not exactly on the level of a lifted pickup or anything.

If it didn't have pedals, it would be illegal in many places, or borderline unusable.

Asher, I wasn't clear about riding the Scrambler on the road when I referenced noise. Based on my state, CT a gasoline powered Scooter, 'Pocket Rocket' etc if it's 50ccs or less can be ridden in and with traffic, uninsured, unregistered. The only safety thing going for the rider is they
are almost always very loud and as we know the Scrambler is silent. If someone chooses to ride in traffic that's their bussiness.

You brought up an interesting point I wasn't aware of, the pedals keep the Scrambler and other electric scooters, mini bikes etc legal.
Watching the Juiced Scrambler video 3/4 or more of the moving shots, the pedals are used to stand on or as a foot rest. I'm assuming if
the Scrambler and others had no pedals it would classed as a motor scooter-motorcycle ?

John from CT

 

[Asher]

In some places yes the classification would change.

still don't get how riding this in traffic is any different than an ebike.

 

[John from Connecticut]

In some places yes the classification would change.

still don't get how riding this in traffic is any different than an ebike.

Since the Hyper Scrambler can peak at over 34 mph, I'm guessing, if ridden on the road it would be ridden mainly within the traffic lane, like similar looking gas powered scooter, pocket rocket scooters do in my state. I've never seen an e-bike in an active traffic lane, but then again I've seen so few e-bikes, period.

Should the Scrambler be ridden on the road is not my concern, unless there's an accident and now the e-bike nay sayers come out... I can hear it now.... " See, it's those e-bikes. I told you we should never have let them on our streets" As mentioned prior, my opinion The Scrambler is not a e-bike, yes it has pedals, but that's primarily to skirt the law I'm assuming. Looking at the promo video they are being used as pegs.....And no helmets ? What's up with that ? Helmets aren't cool.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Scrambler. If I had a need and or space I'd buy one. Just call it what it is, an e-scooter or an e-mini bike etc

 

[Asher]

Agree it doesn't belong in the lane above 28-30 mph. But if it's under that, it should go wherever class 3 ebikes go. Same size + same speed = same space.

 

[philerooski]

.....And no helmets ? What's up with that ? Helmets aren't cool.

Helmet's are a surprisingly controversial topic when it comes to cycling safety. This video is only an overview, but it touches on the main points.

In short: Cycling isn't dangerous -- it's the environment we are forced to cycle in that is dangerous.

 

[jazz]

Regardless, I will always wear a helmet and sometimes a chest and back protector. I ride hard and have been separated from my bike on more than a few occasions

 

[Asher]

Juiced said on its Facebook it's getting demo models to send out to reviewers. They must be very confident about their future supply

They also do Google search ads for existing models... May want to turn those off until supply is restored.

PS in the bike industry, reviewers usually get to keep the bike? Or are they paid for reviews?

 

[Asher]

In the case of Super 73, they straight up gave Casey Neistat 2 bikes to keep (one for him and one for his wife) and it was a tremendous boost for Lithium. And of course Will Smith, Jamie Fox and Post Malone got to keep their 73's. At the Scrambler's price point and added features, I'm sure JB will be going for a Super-73-Killer kind of theme with the influencer crowd.

Odd since the Indiegogo campaign ends in early July. Not enough time to get Scramblers to reviewers to amplify demand in the campaign, is it? Maybe Tora himself is driving a truck of them to Brad Pitt's house?

I can understand the Indiegogo campaign now. I think. Instead of trying to figure out how many orders he'll need, and being vastly wrong in either direction, he just uses Indiegogo. Plus a bunch more probably, for retail sales.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

This guy has been making ebike videos on YouTube for a while. Juiced loaned him a CCS. The videos are pretty interesting. He says they're loaning him a RCS next, when they have one available that is. Loaners, not give-aways.