New Juiced Bike Model: The Scrambler, fat 20" Wheels, Class 3, Double-Seater

Funny, it's not my bag, but I actually like it. Looks like it would be ridiculously comfortable to ride, and I like the power options that Juiced offers. Of course it probably won't be available in Canada.
 
Congrats on a great campaign so far! $1MM is totally within reach, esp with 17 days left. I'm sure there will be a surge of buyers at the last minute, too.
 
@Tora Harris That's great news. Glad the campaign is going so well, and enjoying all the videos you're putting up.

With the Scrambler you've got a couple of new 52 V batteries, besides the 21 Ah battery that came out with the RCS. Please make them all available in the Parts and Accessories section of your website.
 
The Scrambler looks really fun, it's such a tempting price on Indiegogo! It seems like in almost all of the videos, the riders aren't pedaling and are primarily using the throttle - I imagine its because the seat is at a fixed height. It's like the pedals and gears are just for decoration. Thoughts?
 
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kev312 said:
The Scrambler looks really fun, it's such a tempting price on Indiegogo! It seems like in almost all of the videos, the riders aren't pedaling and are primarily using the throttle - I imagine its because the seat is at a fixed height. It's like the pedals and gears are just for decoration. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
If you look at some of the newer videos where Tora is demonstrating the speed, he is pedaling to get the max velocity. Doesn't look like an afterthought.
 
Hey guys. Complete newbie here. Found this site way back when I got burned by the POS Wave ebike that went crazy on IGG (and subsequently left me avoiding any/everything on IGG unless I can confirm the company behind it). It was the worst quality Chinese rebrand with the shadiest campaign owners I've ever encountered.

I've been eyeing the Super 73 just for something to kick around the neighborhood and beach house, but price is too high for the specs. Then i saw today the Juiced Scrambler, read up on it, browsed the forums here.

I guess my question is if other Juiced and ebike owners would hesitate to buy via IGG (even if the style/point of the scrambler isn't your choice). You guys know your stuff regarding ebikes and quality. I'm looking at the base Camp scrambler, although in my neck of the woods the hyper would be awesome for trails. Juiced seems to have quality and an actual company that stands behind their bikes with actual warranties.

I want another ebike. The Wave was a joke and a rattling death trap but piqued my interest in ebikes. It seems Tora and Juiced do have their ducks in a row, from what I can tell. Is it a safe bet to back this campaign? While I'd love the hyper, 2299+ shipping is a bit much for my wallet right now.

I'd be content just with the seemingly great specs of the Camp 750w with 52v battery. Considering the offroad upgrade too, which looks like separate wiring/controller to bypass the 20mph throttle-only limit?

Thoughts? I won't be commuting, I live in a small town where ebikes are like Bigfoot. Mostly it would be to enjoy cruising around home, trails by my house, and beach town. At this point I don't need a mtb with e-motor or anything, so these smaller ebikes always get my attention. Basically I'm looking at this as a new generation mini bike for myself :)
 
I think Juiced did IGG because a) it gives them the money upfront, which reduces their capital costs which may be passed on to consumers and b) it tells them exactly how many to produce for something that has a lead time in months.

Juiced still can't keep its CCS in stock (52V batteries sold out), so I think b) is a big factor. If I wanted the Scrambler, I wouldn't hesitate to use IGG in this case.
 
Recent videos from Juiced show the factory where they're being built, and a boatload being shipped to San Diego for distribution. So it's not "might be built" at this point. Kinda changes the whole IGG dynamic for this product. The Camp Scrambler is selling for $999. I'm tempted to buy one just for the battery.
 
J.R. said:
My first thought was it looked like a moped from the 1970's. It'll sell, people in Europe buy these sort of scooters, I suspect city dwellers here will as well. Could be an inexpensive way to get around a city and unlike gas powered mopeds, you could bring this into the workplace or your apartment for security.

I do think the Indiegogo platform is a bit of a worry though. One doesn't pre-order or purchase from Indiegogo, you invest in the people making a product with the hope of a payoff in the form of a perk. No guarantees, no redress should anything go wrong or change from the original proposal. The instant you invest your money it's theirs, no matter how long it takes to get your perk, if you do get your perk. You can't even change your mind the next day, there are no refunds. Kickstarter at least allows you to pull out if you decide to before the campaign is fully funded. Credit card companies can't even do a chargeback because you aren't actually buying anything, you're investing in a product or a company. An Indiegogo campaign just adds to the many suspicions I've read here on the forum that JB doesn't have money to make anything until customers pay up first.

I invested in a Kickstarter ebike 3 years ago with several others here on the forum. Specs changed, frame changed, but the bid deal-breaker was an innovative battery pack that was the real selling point was scrapped due to the pack designer and patent holder pulled out of the project. We all bailed at that point because on Kickstarter that was allowed if the project wasn't fully funded. Indiegogo doesn't allow refunds at all, ever.

Nearly four years ago a friend, a well respected person in LEV's sent me some information on Tora. I was so impressed by Tora's knowledge and vision of LEV's. I thought one day I'd be buying a bike from what was then called Juiced Rider. JR made the best cargo bike on the market. Huge battery! Then the Cross Current came out and wow that was impressive. I was waiting (and still sort of am waiting) for a MTB. It just seemed like the natural next bike, but it has yet to arrive. Maybe it's the fact MTB are moving away from hub drives and JB is a hub drive brand. There's no reason it has to stay that way. I still think he could make a great MTB with a big battey pack at an affordable price.

Tora is a great designer, with vision and common sense when it comes offering battery packs people want. I've spent a few decades as a production manager for industrial products, nothing retail so I may be way off base, but the conclusion I come to from the many disappointed customers waiting for bikes is Juiced bikes needs a very good business manager. Tora is great at what he does, and what he does is give the people what they want, but timelines, deliveries, parts and communication are a mess. And now a 6 year old company starts an Indiegogo campaign to get money to keep the lights on in the shop. As far as I understood Indiegogo and Kickstarter were for startups.

I want to see JB succeed, but more models doesn't necessarily equate to more business and more money. There's been more than a few car companies fall into that trap. Good luck Tora and for the customers waiting. Here's hoping June is the month everything turns for the better.
Click to expand...

Hi JR,

On that Kickstarter that we were involved with, I think that was the NTS battery system, named for the ‘inventor’. They pulled the plug on that and there was never much of an explanation. It was like “Sorry guys, that amazing piece of tech is gone and you’ll get the plain vanilla battery pack”.

The basic idea of the NTS pack was that the batteries were not spot welded together, it used some kind of compression system. Most things you load with batteries have a spring that maintains the contact as you put the cells in the case. Ebikes can draw 800 watts, and there are a lot of cells (50 is typical). Welding with thick strips means there is a broad contact area across each cell, and then they do multiple connections to other cells. Micah Toll has a good book on building ebike packs. He also distributes the Vruzend system.

If you look at the Juiced web pages, they offer a lot of information. You can see how the technical aspects of the industry have evolved. A couple of years ago, everyone was touting the high capacity cells, like the Panasonic GA’s at 3500 mAh. You don’t see much hype about high capacity, more than that GA for example, right now. One of the problems was capacity versus cycle life. Even the data sheets tended to show that the capacity would drop quickly on these high cap cells with maybe 100 cycles. So Juiced is talking about 1500 cycles. To get there, they are only using 80% of the capacity (charge to 80%, discharge to 20%). That’s the proven way to get the cycles.

The downside of 80% is that it turns your 3500 mAh cell into a 2800 mAh cell. Juiced is offering the 1 kWh pack for $500 on Indiegogo. So this is a great price, relative to what else is out there. But if you use the 80/20, it’s really a 600 wh pack. They are using the Satiator. If you DIY you can limit charge for much less, and with great precision. There are electronics boards from China to do anything with lith cells. I bought some 3s and 4s BMS boards for $3, what you need to build small packs. But you can get all this stuff in China, and they are obviously doing a lot of DIY and small scale engineering. Not much going on here.

It’s too bad DIY didn’t take off. The leader in DIY battery stuff right now is Jehu Garcia. But he is more of a power wall guy. You need hundreds of cells for that, only 50-100 for an ebike pack. But Garcia with his associate Tom (Ebay Alarmhookup) have offered a lot of used or otherwise remaindered cells and packs. I have 80 cells from hoverboard packs. The cells have been checked and rechecked by a lot of people. Anyway, if you can get cells for a dollar or two and you put 52 in a pack, it’s not a lot of money. You stop worrying about the cycles.

Getting back to compression packs. Vruzend seems to work, and they have had a couple of revisions. It is quite easy to check the connections on any pack with a thermal imaging camera. The hot spots are weak connections. The original Vruzend seemed to stress at 4 amps, the latest version is maybe triple that (they say). Jehu Garcia has a compression system, but it looks like the basic cell holders from China with a clean board. He had a video showing stress at 5 amps or so. Remember, you parallel cells in packs, or build voltage, so 5 amps is enough with 5 parallel sets. It’s 25 amps and at 50 volts that is 1200 watts.
 
Congrats, I admit I wasn't a big fan of the Scrambler design when I first saw it. It has grown on me an looks to be a solid offering from Juiced.
 
George S. said:
Hi JR,

On that Kickstarter that we were involved with, I think that was the NTS battery system, named for the ‘inventor’. They pulled the plug on that and there was never much of an explanation. It was like “Sorry guys, that amazing piece of tech is gone and you’ll get the plain vanilla battery pack”.

The basic idea of the NTS pack was that the batteries were not spot welded together, it used some kind of compression system. Most things you load with batteries have a spring that maintains the contact as you put the cells in the case. Ebikes can draw 800 watts, and there are a lot of cells (50 is typical). Welding with thick strips means there is a broad contact area across each cell, and then they do multiple connections to other cells. Micah Toll has a good book on building ebike packs. He also distributes the Vruzend system.

If you look at the Juiced web pages, they offer a lot of information. You can see how the technical aspects of the industry have evolved. A couple of years ago, everyone was touting the high capacity cells, like the Panasonic GA’s at 3500 mAh. You don’t see much hype about high capacity, more than that GA for example, right now. One of the problems was capacity versus cycle life. Even the data sheets tended to show that the capacity would drop quickly on these high cap cells with maybe 100 cycles. So Juiced is talking about 1500 cycles. To get there, they are only using 80% of the capacity (charge to 80%, discharge to 20%). That’s the proven way to get the cycles.

The downside of 80% is that it turns your 3500 mAh cell into a 2800 mAh cell. Juiced is offering the 1 kWh pack for $500 on Indiegogo. So this is a great price, relative to what else is out there. But if you use the 80/20, it’s really a 600 wh pack. They are using the Satiator. If you DIY you can limit charge for much less, and with great precision. There are electronics boards from China to do anything with lith cells. I bought some 3s and 4s BMS boards for $3, what you need to build small packs. But you can get all this stuff in China, and they are obviously doing a lot of DIY and small scale engineering. Not much going on here.

It’s too bad DIY didn’t take off. The leader in DIY battery stuff right now is Jehu Garcia. But he is more of a power wall guy. You need hundreds of cells for that, only 50-100 for an ebike pack. But Garcia with his associate Tom (Ebay Alarmhookup) have offered a lot of used or otherwise remaindered cells and packs. I have 80 cells from hoverboard packs. The cells have been checked and rechecked by a lot of people. Anyway, if you can get cells for a dollar or two and you put 52 in a pack, it’s not a lot of money. You stop worrying about the cycles.

Getting back to compression packs. Vruzend seems to work, and they have had a couple of revisions. It is quite easy to check the connections on any pack with a thermal imaging camera. The hot spots are weak connections. The original Vruzend seemed to stress at 4 amps, the latest version is maybe triple that (they say). Jehu Garcia has a compression system, but it looks like the basic cell holders from China with a clean board. He had a video showing stress at 5 amps or so. Remember, you parallel cells in packs, or build voltage, so 5 amps is enough with 5 parallel sets. It’s 25 amps and at 50 volts that is 1200 watts.
Click to expand...
Neal Saiki (Zero MC) is apparently a brilliant guy, but I haven't seen any new products or developments from him in years. No news or videos and I've looked. Micah has had good products. He has been here on the forum a few times. Maybe Tora will develope a serviceable pack. He's moving fast...

I'd like to build a lightweight, ~high ah, 12 volt pack for a fishing kayak trolling motor. Nothing close on the market now. Most are LiFePO4 and they aren't light at all. It would be for next year.

I've had many discussions with friends about building packs. Most people are interested in the idea, but the market in the US doesn't really support DIY packs well. Hopefully that will come.
 
Latest Scrambler update from the field!


Notes: Right after the close of the successful IGG campaign I waste no time and get on the next plane back to the factory to check on the progress of everything back in China. We have new RipCurrent / RipCurrent S finishing up and need to be checked and then boxed up for shipping later in the week. City and Camp Scramblers parts are coming in and we start on the sub assembly’s as we wait for some slow to arrive parts. The first batch of HyperFats HF1100 arrived to the USA and now we are finishing up the next batch but there is some kind of display shortage from the supplier and completed displays are slow to arrive. The new 52V CrossCurrent X parts arrive and ready for assembly next week. This is an incredibly exciting product set to redefine the sport-commuter category again. Later in the week we shipped RipCurrents and loads of parts which will arrive in the USA around late September. Back at the Scrambler factory we get a little closer to the next batch of scramblers getting on the line. The next weeks are going to be the hardest ever with scramblers, HFs, CCXs, CCs, RCs among other projects. This is on top of a ridiculous US trade war with China. We need to be very focused to keep everything moving forward.
 
Glad to see the aluminum fenders. I really think Juiced can take on Stromer if it puts a little more effort into fit and finish, without the insane prices and proprietary parts.

Chrome aluminum fenders, and tubeless G-One Speed tires, with Deore... Maybe even a premium option with a rigid fork and seatpost and stem suspension system.
 
Also, Tora mentioned some bikes getting trashed while en route in the trucks. Is that because the trucks have a terrible suspension system? I figure foam underneath and on the sides would help, but I'm sure he's thought of that.

Never ridden on a cargo truck but I did in a cheap van recently, and the ride was pretty bumpy.
 
Timpo said:
Check this out.

Luna Banana :D
no front suspension :eek:

$2,520 - 1,000W mid drive
$2,770 - 2,500W mid drive

https://lunacycle.com/luna-banana-bbshd-ebike/
luna_bana_silver_gray__11614.1538889537.jpg
Click to expand...
All that power and a tiny battery.
Also what’s up with that site with models in bikinis laying over the bike?!
Advertising mindset from the 1970s?!
 
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