My UC Pro has arrived

[Fast n' Furious]

Unless you are actually doing a lot of riding using the largest rear cogs, I would definitely increase the size of the front chainring.
I see no reason why a larger front sprocket would affect the wrap on the rear cogs. The wrap should be negligibly different

Exactly. Been saying this.
You have the experience from the chain down on engine powered stuff.
We need at least ATV strength gears and chain. The amount of gears will be dictated by the offset required by the HD gears thickness.
8sp and up will work with the proper #T ring gear.
Not just a chain that lasts - because the cassette shredded first. Compromising, using 'bicycle parts' for this much power's ludicrous and the limiting factor.
As the avant gard, we're the leading edge.
Let us develop!
Can't wait for my delivery.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I guess this is really the crux of the situation. My guess would be pedal a little slower than you need to travel at whatever speed you're going at so you can rotate the cassette without actually putting too much force through the wheel (cassette has to want to spin faster than the wheel is spinning for the hub to engage) - when I say 'settle in' I guess I mean just get the chain fully on the gear you're shifting into. This kinda leads me to ask Deacon this question... how do you feel about the X1? is it easy for you to control cadence & power? Feel pretty natural?

I am silently losing my mind waiting but I know they're in the 1300's for orders and I'm in the low 1400's... Innotrace may be super backlogged but at least my order went in long before the 9/1 cutoff for orders they have enough controllers to cover for.

My guess would be pedal a little slower than you need to travel at whatever speed you're going at so you can rotate the cassette without actually putting too much force through the wheel ...
Uh, no.
NO downgrading the bike's use or performance - to be able to use gimpy stuff that does not work.
My current ride is an example. I had high expectations. I drove it hard; broke stuff; researched and upgraded.
Cost twice the price of the stock machine, but so reliable now I think the tires are wearing out - running 52v, 22amps and reaching 100Nm daily driving my style. NO ISSUES - 'cept cars that don't expect me to be this quick.
Ultra? Same game. Break, research, replace, break and keep it up until you level that hump and go to the next weakness - rinse and repeat.
My issue's not price. It's failure.
-
I think Innotrace is through with money (remember I told you). $299 a yr for 0 upgrades! I bought in too.
This also means zero support going forward.
These Companies drop dead and don't pass on software development. It's become a pattern for shady capitalism, hiding the details.
If you've ever known a lazy American IT developer weenie, imagine that entitled, "you need me" geek mindset in a Socialist Country?
If we buy their products, we sponsor their unemployment that pays what I earn working.

Fn'F

 

[Jon A]

@Jon A the Nextie's I've got on order are the 95mm ones and I've been wondering about the chain clearing the 2XL's too (though not until after I bought them, as is tradition). I had expected them to ship this past week (fits lead time they gave me & the timing of my last order with them) but I'm not too worried - yet. I only test fit everything with the cheap Deckas 40T chainring on the outside of the spider, which it fits perfectly fine with no spacers and there were no issues with chain clearance on the cassette cogs. The only reason I need the 2.5mm spacers is to get a gap between the tiny 30T chaintring and the spider so the chain will fit on the teeth. Also - according to Manitou's chart the 2XL casing is narrower than Surly Bud, Lou, Knard 4.8, and Schwalbe Jumbo Jim 4.8 - the main difference is height but I thing the lugs are a little wider than the casing too. Are you running your chainring on the inside or outside of your spider to clear the J5's? Them thangs studded?

I haven't had the 2XL's so I couldn't say for sure how big they are, just from reading the reviews I get the impression they're pretty darn big. ;-) The lugs are the limiting factor on the J5's for me (at least when on 80mm rims--that might change with wide enough rims). Mine are studded--they'll be my go anywhere in the worst of winter conditions tire. My chainring is mounted on the outside.

You might be just fine with the 2.5mm spacers. Especially if you don't go 11-12 speed. If I remember correctly, the EX1 cassette requires a 1.85mm spacer on the freehub which would imply the biggest cog is spaced outward somewhere around where my 2nd cog is. That alone might be plenty to eliminate any chain rubbing issues. As much as people frown on the price of the EX1 stuff, it's not like the GX cassettes I like are cheap...and if they really do last that much longer, the EX1 makes quite a bit of sense. I really don't need 12 gears on this bike.

 

[loamoaf]

@Fast n' Furious I think at some point you're asking an electric bicycle to do electric dirtbike things and it becomes unreasonable to expect them to hold up for conditions they weren't designed for. If I wanted 5kW I'd get something like a Sur Ron frame and drop in a water-cooled Cascadia Motion that's good for 20kW for future-proofing - but it'd also be running a bonafide dirtbike chain or belt and sure as heck wouldn't weigh 60lbs or have mountainbike components on it. A 180lb person putting their entire weight at on a pedal with a 170mm crank arm outputs ~136Nm of force. Proper shifting technique is practiced by non-electric riders because it's necessary for proper operation of the drivetrain without premature wear. You can buy a properly designed supercar and still shift wrong and destroy something even if it's designed to withstand proper operation perfectly fine - same principle. As for the Kindernay stuff... in my shopping cart it shows €1000 for the VII & €1250 for the XIV with a shifter and the product page for the shifters says "an extra shifter is handy to have..." and these are the responses I've received from them back in early October regarding the fat hubs. You do bring up a good point about Fatbikes being fairly popular in that part of the world but if very little of their business is for those then for the time being it is what it is. If the warranty is for 160Nm and people are running it and breaking it at higher forces... well that's on the end-user. I don't really understand how heavier wheels would increase the torque output of the motor though, if the motor can only do 160Nm and it takes more than that to get it going... it's not going to go anywhere or it's going to spin the wheel in which case there's going to be far less than 160Nm going through it since it has no traction and isn't moving the weight of the bike+rider.

@Jon A this was my initial though grabbing the EX1 stuff but I didn't look into the spacing on the EX1 cassette enough. My original plan was to go cheap until Kindernay launched their Onesie shifter, which as luck would have it coincided with them stopping sale of the fattie hub. Big bummer because I was really looking forward to an IGH that I could switch from 29+ to 26" fat without having to buy a whole second IGH. So for the foreseeable future I'm married to the Shimano XT 11s & may play around with the EX1 if I can find a less-painful deal on a cassette for it. GX cassettes being pricey is no excuse when I can get the Shimano for $100!

@Deacon Blues for better standover height 2.4 tires on the 27.5 wheels would be a little better than the 2.8's, or if you want to be sure with the clearance but spend less than swapping both wheels would be try a just a 26x2.4-2.6 on the rear. I know WW lists (or listed) the geos for their bikes including standover height, but if you got a different version frame it'd be worth double checking yourself against what was listed - or seeing if the UC Pro & CT frames have the same standover. The fact that that changes with how tall the tires are is also something to consider so if those are given in the measurements with one set of wheels, yours may be slightly different with a different set of wheels and tires. This is why I think WW would benefit from a distribution network with LBS but that involves keeping inventory etc which seems pretty difficult right now. Looking at a bike online is fine & all, but being able to sit on it and stand over it in-store to check the size fit will never be beat. I learned this with a bikesdirect bike, sizing chart told me 19" frame would be better, but experience says I would have preferred the 17" - ergonomics is way more important on a bicycle that other vehicles

 

[Deacon Blues]

I've discussed going with a smaller wheel with Pushkar, but he mentioned something I didn't consider-the smaller wheel/tire will mean that I'll have to increase my cadence to maintain the same speed I had with the larger wheels/tires.
He figured it would be in the 2-3 mph decrease with the same cadence.
That's the last thing I want with this bike.
I want to be able to maintain a constant speed in the 23-25mph range, without pedalling like a madman.
I could go with a larger front ring, but Pushkar doesn't recommend going any larger than 50t.

 

[scrambler]

I believe the concern with the front chainring size is to make sure it does not start touching the swing arm.
Depending on the Chain line position (how far from the motor), you may be able to go higher like 55 may be even more, but you would want to try and make sure that it clears the swing arm properly.
If it does, I can't think of a reason not to, if the new ratio works for you

 

[loamoaf]

50T will give you nice cruising speed! My 50T ring clears my swing arm by just a teeny amount mounted outboard of the spider without any spacers, a little too close for comfort for me. FWIW I was cruising comfortably around 24-26mph on 42x11, maybe asking 150-180W from the motor with me pedaling. Using a 40T with 26x2.4 the red box tops out just over 26mph. The Deckas chainrings are cheap enough to experiment with, stock Bafang spider is 130mm BCD. I think they go up to 52T

 

[Deacon Blues]

Loamoaf, thanks for the graphs.
I have a Garmin cadence sensor that I can put on my crank arm and monitor with a Garmin app on my iphone.
Next time I go for a ride I'll see what cruising speed an 80 to 90 cadence gives me.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

@Fast n' Furious I think at some point you're asking an electric bicycle to do electric dirtbike things and it becomes unreasonable to expect them to hold up for conditions they weren't designed for. If I wanted 5kW I'd get something like a Sur Ron frame and drop in a water-cooled Cascadia Motion that's good for 20kW for future-proofing - but it'd also be running a bonafide dirtbike chain or belt and sure as heck wouldn't weigh 60lbs or have mountainbike components on it. A 180lb person putting their entire weight at on a pedal with a 170mm crank arm outputs ~136Nm of force. Proper shifting technique is practiced by non-electric riders because it's necessary for proper operation of the drivetrain without premature wear. You can buy a properly designed supercar and still shift wrong and destroy something even if it's designed to withstand proper operation perfectly fine - same principle. As for the Kindernay stuff... in my shopping cart it shows €1000 for the VII & €1250 for the XIV with a shifter and the product page for the shifters says "an extra shifter is handy to have..." and these are the responses I've received from them back in early October regarding the fat hubs. You do bring up a good point about Fatbikes being fairly popular in that part of the world but if very little of their business is for those then for the time being it is what it is. If the warranty is for 160Nm and people are running it and breaking it at higher forces... well that's on the end-user. I don't really understand how heavier wheels would increase the torque output of the motor though, if the motor can only do 160Nm and it takes more than that to get it going... it's not going to go anywhere or it's going to spin the wheel in which case there's going to be far less than 160Nm going through it since it has no traction and isn't moving the weight of the bike+rider.
View attachment 107613View attachment 107614

@Jon A this was my initial though grabbing the EX1 stuff but I didn't look into the spacing on the EX1 cassette enough. My original plan was to go cheap until Kindernay launched their Onesie shifter, which as luck would have it coincided with them stopping sale of the fattie hub. Big bummer because I was really looking forward to an IGH that I could switch from 29+ to 26" fat without having to buy a whole second IGH. So for the foreseeable future I'm married to the Shimano XT 11s & may play around with the EX1 if I can find a less-painful deal on a cassette for it. GX cassettes being pricey is no excuse when I can get the Shimano for $100!

@Deacon Blues for better standover height 2.4 tires on the 27.5 wheels would be a little better than the 2.8's, or if you want to be sure with the clearance but spend less than swapping both wheels would be try a just a 26x2.4-2.6 on the rear. I know WW lists (or listed) the geos for their bikes including standover height, but if you got a different version frame it'd be worth double checking yourself against what was listed - or seeing if the UC Pro & CT frames have the same standover. The fact that that changes with how tall the tires are is also something to consider so if those are given in the measurements with one set of wheels, yours may be slightly different with a different set of wheels and tires. This is why I think WW would benefit from a distribution network with LBS but that involves keeping inventory etc which seems pretty difficult right now. Looking at a bike online is fine & all, but being able to sit on it and stand over it in-store to check the size fit will never be beat. I learned this with a bikesdirect bike, sizing chart told me 19" frame would be better, but experience says I would have preferred the 17" - ergonomics is way more important on a bicycle that other vehicles

unreasonable to expect them to hold up for conditions they weren't designed for ???
The bike is designed to generate up to 200Nm. It's a e-superbike.
You're assuming all the K'nay returns are people abusing them, exceeding 160N.m. Do you have any proof?
A Suron is not street legal and what made you think I want a "dirt bike"?
Big bummer because I was really looking forward to an IGH that I could switch from 29+ to 26" fat
Yup. Only need the cage and the right ancillary parts to accommodate it.
Uh, WW doesn't make a +29er Fat tire, do they? "+" tires come in two sizes: 27.5 x 3" and 29 x 3". The 29" being 1.5" taller of the two.
Bye Bye fender. Highly likely not even be possible with that fork. Oh well, buy a 29" fork, huh?
Do they even make any Ti 29er?
Low in the back, huge in the front? That's an Mullet/ Enduro Mtb e-bike, not a Commuter, nor a Cross Tour.
It's not me that has the CT's mission skewed. Only off-roading I'll do is when I surf fish - in sand, fat tires. I've zero lust for a downhill Enduro, but with a $4 - 5k thousand in mods, certainly a CT or a UC could be used. Saner folks with that kind of bread would buy a machine made for just that purpose as an Ultimate in it's class. But then there was a guy here insisting on painting a Titanium frame. It sounds fascinating and I look forward to seeing your machine. To each their own, but I can't help but think you coulda had a Hydra and had rear suspension, and of course since you are determined to substantially de-rate the motor, change the geometry and upgrade many thousands, why not a Vitus Super-Enduro?

Proper shifting technique is practiced by non-electric riders because it's necessary for proper operation of the drivetrain without premature wear.
Okay. Tell that to anyone who raced or races cars. Proper shifting technique didn't save my 2nd gear sychros.
Actually, it's for keeping the correct torque on the wheels in the correct powerband (I used it to enhance steering technique as well), to people that can drive.
Powershifts ain't the same with a 454 Chevelle L6's Muncie M20/ 428 Mustang M22 rockcrusher, as using a Honda Civic's. The civic's can't begin to hang, using the same exact techniques the M22 can.
Why do you keep assuming everyone is using improper shifting?
Here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113864 is another problem that explains a weaknesses.
"Based on the few disassembled hubs after failures that have been posted over the years both on ebike and pedal forums, the two most common failure modes are sheared off teeth from shock loads (where chain slack into the hub is not first taken up before the motor applies load power), and sheared pins that connect the outer drive input to the internal gearing (for those hubs that have this protection, kind of like a "torque fuse").
Another failure can be shifting under load, for a similar reason to the not-taking-up-chain-slack failure mode, and can be prevented by turning off motor power during the shift and ramping it back up afterward (NTS: LOL. Right. I'll do that)
These failures can also happen to pure pedal inputs, but are less likely since a rider is more likely to take up the chain slack and not just slam down on them every time they start cranking, and they're also likely to stop cranking during a shift for just a moment.
Another failure is caused by the shifter being poorly adjusted so that the gears don't fully mesh, so only some fraction of the tooth faces are actually mating, so much more force is being transferred into a smaller surface area of each gear. This one doesn't matter what the power source is, it's going to wear the gears faster and have more risk of breaking one under load."
-
I don't really understand how heavier wheels would increase the torque output of the motor though
More mass requires more force to stop and start. It may be possible to limit the wattage and downgrade a fat tired CT, but it'll be a lot slower than with 3" tires.
-
Kindernay pricing. I just checked again and attached the screen shot.

1249 Euros = 1,403.76 United States Dollars - todays exchange rate. VII is 999 Euros, $1122.00. I think it fluctuates some.
But yes, I agree that is with the shifter. I was mistaken. An upgrade shifter is now 383 Euros $430.00 + shipping & tax.
A spare cage is now only 128 Euros, $143.00. The don't say anything about shipping costs or where the company is.
Of course some of WW's price is the the different drop-outs. Gates belts are pretty cheap.
"... on the 27.5 wheels would be a little better than the 2.8's, or if you want to be sure with the clearance but spend less than swapping both wheels would be try a just a 26x2.4-2.6 on the rear"?
WW advertised the 650b's come in 2.7' and 3". The 26" for the 197mm come with 4" tires - I think it's an 80mm rim.
-
Even Bafang's version of G510 1000watt motor claims it runs 160Nm. Riding style and good shifting practices might help a lot, but that +4lb IGH is not up to this motor - I feel.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Can anyone give me a link to an online source for the Bafang fat spider?
I'm okay with the size of the chain ring for now. If I were to ever change it I'd go larger.

In one of my conversations with Pushkar he mentioned that one of solutions to solving the chain skipping would be to replace the 11-50 cassette with a 11-42. Can someone explain to me why going to a smaller cassette would be beneficial?

One of the Hydra guys had a Christini and wasn't liking it much - for the price.
When I told you, ebay's 'schristian' had one left of the 90 he sold. Sorry I didn't buy it.
You'll find one if you keep watching.

Looks like the Christini is the way to go. Chainring inside the spider for 177mm, outside for 197mm. The way the Wolftooth mounts on my spider it's looking like I may have to grab little spacers to get it on the outside of the spider with clearance. It has offsets built into the chainring for mounting inside, or placing a guard on the outside, but it needs spacers on the other side - I wish it was symmetrical and had offsets on both, oh well. Can't just flip it because the dropstop tooth profile is direction. The Christini fat spider + 30T stainless steel ring weigh 186g. Gap with the built-in standoffs facing measured at 1.75mm, SRAM EX-1chain (10-spd width) clears it fine, so an 11-spd should as well. You need the long Wolftooth bolts to engage enough threads on the chainring, any longer chainring bolts with M8 x 0.75P threads.

I will agree with Fn'F on this one - for your max speed you'll want to max out the size on your chainring so you canhave a 13T or larger smallest cog. The different derailleur cage (or M8100 derailleur) would also help getting more wrap on the smallest. Think about this, if you are hitting 200Nm that's like Honda Civic torque. Is it realistic to expect a little 6-7 teeth of engagement on a cog to handle that without protesting a little bit? Detuning the motor is also probably smart. More range, more work out, live longer to ride your Watt Wagon!

View attachment 107189View attachment 107186View attachment 107187View attachment 107188

I see sites that say the ring gear must me mounted logo side out

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Looks like the Christini is the way to go. Chainring inside the spider for 177mm, outside for 197mm. The way the Wolftooth mounts on my spider it's looking like I may have to grab little spacers to get it on the outside of the spider with clearance. It has offsets built into the chainring for mounting inside, or placing a guard on the outside, but it needs spacers on the other side - I wish it was symmetrical and had offsets on both, oh well. Can't just flip it because the dropstop tooth profile is direction. The Christini fat spider + 30T stainless steel ring weigh 186g. Gap with the built-in standoffs facing measured at 1.75mm, SRAM EX-1chain (10-spd width) clears it fine, so an 11-spd should as well. You need the long Wolftooth bolts to engage enough threads on the chainring, any longer chainring bolts with M8 x 0.75P threads.

I will agree with Fn'F on this one - for your max speed you'll want to max out the size on your chainring so you canhave a 13T or larger smallest cog. The different derailleur cage (or M8100 derailleur) would also help getting more wrap on the smallest. Think about this, if you are hitting 200Nm that's like Honda Civic torque. Is it realistic to expect a little 6-7 teeth of engagement on a cog to handle that without protesting a little bit? Detuning the motor is also probably smart. More range, more work out, live longer to ride your Watt Wagon!

View attachment 107189View attachment 107186View attachment 107187View attachment 107188

Any experience using a 9sp? What would you recommend? What would be the drawbacks?
A 12,14,16,18,22,28,34,40,46 w/ 46T ring would grip of 6 teeth on smallest cog, 7 on the next and provide nice performance top and and bottom end.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

50T will give you nice cruising speed! My 50T ring clears my swing arm by just a teeny amount mounted outboard of the spider without any spacers, a little too close for comfort for me. FWIW I was cruising comfortably around 24-26mph on 42x11, maybe asking 150-180W from the motor with me pedaling. Using a 40T with 26x2.4 the red box tops out just over 26mph. The Deckas chainrings are cheap enough to experiment with, stock Bafang spider is 130mm BCD. I think they go up to 52T

View attachment 107625View attachment 107627View attachment 107629View attachment 107630

Just as I assumed using the dekas'. Inexpensive. Fine for rear hubs for sure. Being alloy, don't expect much w/ mid drive - esp this one.
But that's not so bad. Better it wear than the steel cassette and chain. In experience the softer material can often be used as a sacrifice to the harder. That should help. Pretty common principle.
-
I've pointed out that larger wheelsets and tires have more mass to move to equal the same speed as smaller ones.
The below graphs also verifies that at the same rpm, the 26" x 4" wheels cover more distance than 27.5" x 3". That means you need more watts. Remembering "velocity squared, times the mass = terminal torque force, the faster velocity times the larger mass of the 4"ers, requires more wattage (fuel) to achieve the same rpm as a 3" tire moving faster over the contact point.
So: If these 4" tires have a wheelset with 20% more mass (you tell me) than the 3", it takes roughly 30% more power to travel at the same rpm.
With fat tires, if you drop to your normal speed you will still be using higher wattage to achieve the same effect because it still takes more torque to turn achieve rotation, and any N.m. over 160 is a no-no. My guess why K'nay dropped fat bikes.
A couple questions.
Upper right corner. Isn't that how many speeds? "3", not "12"?
Are your tires 2.25"?
I get :

A 48t Ring also seems workable.

With the 26 x 4 tires and 50t I get the following.

With 48t

I'm currently running a 48t - max unless I offset about 4mm more.
I had to use a 46t guard. Fits perfect.

Pretty dang close when installed ...

I can't see a 50t reducing ground clearance that much and it seems a pretty reasonable speed curve.
I'm sure I'll try a 46t, 48t and a 50t. On alibaba, the cost for all Dekas 3 is under $50. They also have a 52t for $17.00.

Thanks for the insightful comments.

 

[BarnBoy]

@Fast n' Furious - FYI, I have applied > 2.2KW to my Kindernay and zero issues! No mis shifts once I figured out how to shift it correctly. Basically with an eBike and Kindernay, one needs to stop pedaling and zero motor output when you shift….
-BB

 

[Deacon Blues]

Here's a chain length question:
If I replaced the cassette that came with the bike (11-50) with an 11-42 and I replaced the 44t front chain ring with a 48t or 50t, would I need to change the length of the chain?

My package from WW should be arriving today, so hopefully I'll be able to install the new, smaller cassette and the fat spider.
I also plan on ordering some chain rings (48t and 50t).

 

[scrambler]

1249 Euros = 1,403.76 United States Dollars - todays exchange rate. VII is 999 Euros, $1122.00. I think it fluctuates some.

This is the XIV which is more expensive because it also includes a special 7 bolt rotor and a custom Spacer for it and the torque arm

The VII is really all that is needed for an Ebike and that can use the existing 6 bolt rotor you have like a Rohloff would, so that Kindernay is under $1200 (999 euros)

 

[Fast n' Furious]

@Fast n' Furious - FYI, I have applied > 2.2KW to my Kindernay and zero issues! No mis shifts once I figured out how to shift it correctly. Basically with an eBike and Kindernay, one needs to stop pedaling and zero motor output when you shift….
-BB
View attachment 107674

Can't think of anyone more competent than you. Here, https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/quick-update-on-archon-rohloff-kindernay-tests.35904/ are Pushkar's results. Can you decode them for us?

1000W	Eco	All gears work 1-14.	All gears work 1-14.
	Sport	Gears 1-5, Slips beyond gear 5 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)	Gears 1-7, Slips beyond gear 7 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)

 

[Deacon Blues]

Just got my fat spider and smaller cassette from Pushkar. Air freight is expensive, but sometimes it's worth the cost.
Hopefully, I'll have everything swapped over today.

 

[loamoaf]

@Fast n' Furious I think you're misunderstanding me when I say proper shifting technique I mean in spefic regards to bicycles not racecars... proper shifting technique is 100% a real thing for regular bicycles and people have destroyed derailleurs under human power by not practicing proper technique... nothing to do with cars or clutches or synchros or blowers.

You talked about 5000W on a SA3 which is no more street legal than a Sur Ron, I just offered a similarly powered machine that's an example of something that's designed and intended for use with that amount of power. When I talk about "unreasonable to expect them to hold up for conditions they weren't designed for" I'm talking about the Kindernay... if it's advertised and warrantied to handle 160Nm, and sold on a 200Nm 'super ebike' then one should not be surprised if the hub failed above 160Nm. Being sold on a 200Nm bike by a company that doesn't even make the hub doesn't magically increase its safe operating limit. It means the hub is being sold on a machine that is more powerful than what the hub was intended for, and I'm not accusing anyone of wrecking their hub that way because I haven't pored over the internet for user accounts and investigated the circumstances surrounding their failure or followed up on Kindernay's response and whether the rider got their hub back... but even in one of the threads you linked someone says "5000kms on K-XIV 1000W no problems just change chains."

Also, larger or heavier tires aren't going to increase the amount of force the motor puts out. If the motor can only do 160Nm, and somehow the mass of the tire puts it beyond that limit - it's just not going to move. It's already moving the whole mass of the bike, not just tires. The forces the motor must overcome increases, but not the maximum force it puts out. If the motor is set to 1000W/160Nm, putting a different wheelset that's only 5-600g heavier on the rear doesn't magically increase that power or torque limit from the motor. Don't worry about tire clearance for me either, it'll all fit on my build.

The 3 in the upper right hands corner of the bikecalc tool in the increments in cadence, the number of speeds is determined by the amount of numbers separated by commas in the 'cogs' field, you can do the same with chainrings if you want to chart out everything you're considering.

In the thread you linked Pushkar says about the chart "gears 1-5 for Rholoff are fine but above gear 5 slips from standstill/uphill, 1-7 on XIV are fine, but slips above 7 in the same conditions" - ie the Rohloff slips before the Kindernay, but glad someone more competent can chime in with some first-hand experience.

 

[loamoaf]

@Deacon Blues if the chain was properly sized with the original setup on the bike then that combo may work out without needing to change the chain length. According to Park Tool with a 1x, you wrap the chain over the largest rear cog and the front chainring without snaking through the derailleur pulleys, find the tightest you can go on the chain while connecting link, and then go out 4 rivets from there

 

[Fast n' Furious]

@Fast n' Furious - FYI, I have applied > 2.2KW to my Kindernay and zero issues! No mis shifts once I figured out how to shift it correctly. Basically with an eBike and Kindernay, one needs to stop pedaling and zero motor output when you shift….
-BB
View attachment 107674

Well now !!! Then there goes the 160Nm 'myth' down the commode?
Everything works ...
... until it breaks.
Sounding more and more like that's not the case for many units. I doubt this is a case of mass owner abuse and and won't be curtailed by dropping fat bike size - unless K'nay's saying FB owners are more incapable buffoons than Skinny types?
And if it does go, you have no warranty.
What's your take on why the factory discontinued?
Hey, I hope it works well for you, but the thing is for me, without shutting off power at the display, using a chain it's impossible to shift a gear without pressing the pedals - activating the TS, and thus the the motor, and that's against the rules, so all chain driven bikes must fail - except they don't. That indicates some K'nay hubs are weaker than others, not that some user's are better at shifting technique.
Analogies comparing shifting automobiles keep leaving the clutch, disengaging power while shifting. lol. Never seen a TS in a car? Try shifting cars without the clutch. I can, by matching the rpm's. It still takes a lot of experience to not crunch shifts. Grenade a few trannies - no, not those 'trannies'.
Blaming everything on the victim's shifting technique is a convenient way, that no one can disprove to explain hub failures.
If K'nay has a precondition that by it's very nature excludes using a cassette, doomed from the start, they should stop advertising it 'works with cassette e-bikes up to 160Nm', when it's impossible to do what is required.
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Chevy Corvair's were rolling over at an alarming rate. GM insisted it was all crazy drivers - who were not victims, they claimed.
While the issue was ongoing, however, GM actively tried to smut the whistleblower, Ralph Nader, including sending a prostitute to try to solicit him. He successfully sued for $425,000, which he used to found the Center for Auto Safety.
GM faced 294 lawsuits over the car and settled all of them privately, but forced 10 plaintiffs they refused to settle with to a jury trial. Eight were found in GM’s favour. Of the other two, a judge set aside the verdict in one, while an intoxicated driver was found 75-per-cent liable in the other.
Could it be clearer that in 10 out of 294 - and probably a lot more that were settled without filing - GM admitted responsibility.
GM has always insisted the car was safe. They still do. An inveterate untruth, impossible to be true.
Below is the reason why.

All of them up to 1965 are deathtraps. The car’s rear suspension could tuck under on a turn, resulting in a rollover. The car also required precise tire pressures to reduce oversteer, with 15 psi in front and 26 psi in rear, which Nader said put too much of a burden on everyday drivers and in my experience can cause a tire to roll under and blow out in a turn. I've had it happen. When it does, you'll be lucky if you don't roll the car and
Many Corvair owners protested and said it was the drivers, not the car, while GM muddied the waters and eliminated the swing arm set up.
GM said "See, you just have to drive correctly". Most of them were comparing their post 1965 cars though, and those were the cars GM was sending in to test by NHTSA, so it was "What Rollover? I don't see any rollovers?".
History rhymes, not repeats.
Here we are.

Fn'F