My UC Pro has arrived

[Deacon Blues]

Would this Fat spider from Green bike Kit work? Can anyone give me feedback on Green Bike Kit?

Bafang Ultra G510 /M620 chainring/chainwheel for MTB or Fatbike-Greenbikekit.com BBS, ebike batteries, Bafang M620, Bafang M600, Bafang M500, Bafang M510, KT controller with display-GreenBikeKit.com

Bafang Ultra G510 /M620 chainring/chainwheel for MTB or Fatbike.

www.greenbikekit.com

Edit: Just got a text from Pushkar-he's sending me a Bafang Fat spider and a smaller cassette. Sometime down the road I may also purchase a Christini Fat spider, when they're back in stock.

 

[loamoaf]

Good to hear Pushkar is making it right as he should. I know he doesn't want to deliver improperly assembled bikes so regardless of the cause of a goof like this it shouldn't be on the customer to fix it. Going to a smaller range cassette will help because you could adjust the B screw to get the right spacing of the guide pulley off the largest & the smallest cogs (allows proper amount of chain wrap on the 11T which clearing the 42T)

@Jon A I would expect if the inboard chainring on the MTB spider is for 142 then flopping it to the outside would be good for 148 boost, but you're right 157,170,177,197 would all have probelms with it. Still kind of curious to know if Deacon wound up with a CT instead of UC Pro or if the UC pro is larger than 142.

 

[Jon A]

Edit: Just got a text from Pushkar-he's sending me a Bafang Fat spider and a smaller cassette. Sometime down the road I may also purchase a Christini Fat spider, when they're back in stock.

That's great. I assume that means he confirmed you have a 197 rear axle?

As loamoaf mentioned, you will probably be able to improve things adjusting the B screw with the new cassette. I'm not all that familiar with the Shimano stuff so I can't say how much. But I would guess if you took a side profile pic like I did above you'd find the chain isn't wrapping around the small cog as much--which would directly affect the bike's propensity to skip on that cog.

Something else that can affect this I haven't seen mentioned yet--chain length. If the chain is on the short side, this tends to pull the pulley down and back, reducing the wrap on the smaller cogs. I don't know how Shimano recommends one determine the right length, but it's something I'd have on the list of things to check.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Yes, a 198mm rear axle.

 

[loamoaf]

Chain length guide from our friends at Park Tool. Note they do chain length without snaking it through the derailleur pulleys

 

[rtp]

If I have to do it all myself, may as well delete the useless parts and bring the price down so I can do it right.

Anyone know if this is an option at all? Have been somewhat considering a Hydra if can get the price to near sanity, but really have no desire for an 11s drivetrain on it - would literally just replace it...
Have to say a few recent threads including the recent Hydra threads (wrong color, poor paint or cerakote, scratches) and stuff like this thread have me thinking hard as indeed I'd expect to have basic geometry issues, spacers worked out... derailleur and normal adjustments, checking lube and nut/bolt/screw torque etc. aren't a big deal, but having to change out parts from delivery is something else..

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Yes, a 198mm rear axle.

Gee? You want the UC frame if they can't get me my CT, I'll trade ya? LOL
That's already a rare beast.
My congrats, fingers crossed that bafang's fat spider will work. That's the 'wide', wide frame.
"Fat" meant 'boost' spacing to bafang.
Glad you're finding out ahead of me. I ordered my CT with 27.5 x 3" wheels.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Glad you're finding out ahead of me. I ordered my CT with 27.5 x 3" wheels.

That's what I have.
Another decent day, so my wife and I decided to go for a bike ride. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the UC Pro to turn on.
The connector on the end of the red wire coming out of the motor had come off the wire and I'd jammed the wire back in, as a temporary measure, and taped it with electrical tape.
I left the 'problem solving' until later and rode my e-gravel bike instead.
Later on I unwound the electrical tape around the red wire connect and sure enough it had come loose again.
Pushkar is sending me a new connector, but I decided to cut off the other three connectors and replace them with permanent connectors.
After I'd finished I took the bike out for another test ride. Everything worked as it should.

Some comments:

1. The ride is very comfortable.....almost plush.
2. This is a heavy bike, but it doesn't feel ponderous when riding.
3. This Bafang motor is a lot noisier than my Bosch gen 4 motor. The Bosch motor is also a lot smoother.
4. Under light pedal power, and in the 11t cog, the chain only skipped once. I didn't try pedalling hard in the 11t and 13t cogs, but I did in the 15t cog and didn't notice any chain skip.

I really hopeful that the Bafang FAT spider will solve my skipping problem. Fingers crossed.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I agree. I'd suggest measuring your rear hub to be 100% sure what spacing you have. I can confirm if it's 197, both the Christini "FAT" and the stock Bafang "Fat" spiders will put the chainline right in the middle of the cassette with the chainring mounted to the outside.

One more thing--could you post a side view pic of your derailleur in the smallest cog? It's hard to tell from the other pic, but it looks to my eyeball like the chain isn't getting much of a wrap around the small cog which could certainly make it easier to skip teeth. Some B-screw adjustment might be able to improve this if that's the case.

I sped read this and missed that. You confirmed the bafang fat will fit a 197mm? I keep seeing it's for a 'boost' width.
This is good info. But I will still have to go with the Christini to use

Good to hear Pushkar is making it right as he should. I know he doesn't want to deliver improperly assembled bikes so regardless of the cause of a goof like this it shouldn't be on the customer to fix it. Going to a smaller range cassette will help because you could adjust the B screw to get the right spacing of the guide pulley off the largest & the smallest cogs (allows proper amount of chain wrap on the 11T which clearing the 42T)

@Jon A I would expect if the inboard chainring on the MTB spider is for 142 then flopping it to the outside would be good for 148 boost, but you're right 157,170,177,197 would all have probelms with it. Still kind of curious to know if Deacon wound up with a CT instead of UC Pro or if the UC pro is larger than 142.

Looking at the UC's WW page under 'suspension', then checking the options available, they all say the UC is a 2.7" forked bike.
I'm also perplexed. I'd think if one ordered wider rims, WW would tell such clients 'those require CT frame specs and a different fork'.
We clearly have a UC being built on a CT frame, with 3" wheels and a fork of that width, but with the drivetrain set up for a UC's narrow width?
And no one noticed.
Having my order in with the identical drivetrain, but in 3" - 26 x 4" CT frame, wheels and fork, seems to produce the same result as a CT order.
I've been going 'hmmmmm?' from the start.
Begs a few questions:
How do you even pass cursory QC with the chain that far off?
Is that WW's solution for the 197mm - the 10mm shy (boost sized) bafang fat-bike spider?
Isn't bafang's FB spider for 177mm bikes?
Another thing. Putting spacers on this beast of a motor's ring gear/ spider interface that eliminate the 'lands' holding full contact sounds good, but leads to disasters.
A fat bafang Ultra spider for w/ a 177mm would STILL sit 10mm inward of chain alignment on a 197mm frame.
You can't even run an 9sp with that much error.
I understand the madness with IGH/ Belt alignment QC failings - 2mm tolerance Max - but cassettes and a ring-sets are well known technologies w/ triple the slop variance.
This is not some 'repair so it'll work at all, then destroy the weak parts, repair, test and make functional' machine. That work's the creator's.
Deacon bought this bike to ride and it should come so equipped and the drivetrain 100% ready.
I certainly hope the solution provided, that violates my shallow logic isn't also going to be out of spec. If I created/ sold 197mm bikes, I'd know that, so it goes from 'dumb' to 'dumber' if it is.
If it is, does this mean ALL previous buyers of 197's were shortchanged, unable to reliably use high gears and R&D never noticed?
I don't see any other CT owners chiming in, let alone 197mm fatties, so I don't know.
Can't wait for the next episode.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I agree. I'd suggest measuring your rear hub to be 100% sure what spacing you have. I can confirm if it's 197, both the Christini "FAT" and the stock Bafang "Fat" spiders will put the chainline right in the middle of the cassette with the chainring mounted to the outside.

One more thing--could you post a side view pic of your derailleur in the smallest cog? It's hard to tell from the other pic, but it looks to my eyeball like the chain isn't getting much of a wrap around the small cog which could certainly make it easier to skip teeth. Some B-screw adjustment might be able to improve this if that's the case.

I sped read this and missed that. You confirmed the bafang fat will fit a 197mm? I keep seeing it's for a 'boost' width.
This is good info. Everything I see says I still have to go with the 10mm more offset Christini.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Would this Fat spider from Green bike Kit work? Can anyone give me feedback on Green Bike Kit?

Bafang Ultra G510 /M620 chainring/chainwheel for MTB or Fatbike-Greenbikekit.com BBS, ebike batteries, Bafang M620, Bafang M600, Bafang M500, Bafang M510, KT controller with display-GreenBikeKit.com

Bafang Ultra G510 /M620 chainring/chainwheel for MTB or Fatbike.

www.greenbikekit.com

Edit: Just got a text from Pushkar-he's sending me a Bafang Fat spider and a smaller cassette. Sometime down the road I may also purchase a Christini

Fat spider, when they're back in stock.

I went to Christini's site. Low and behold, they have a BAFANG Ultra Drive BCD104 Boost adapter (out of stock) and BAFANG Ultra Drive BCD104 Fat Bike Adapter (currently in stock).

 

[loamoaf]

@Fast n' Furious Bafang fat spider puts the chainring offset at 75mm 70mm (I wasn't looking at the right number) when the chainring is in the little big ring position (inboard outboard the spider) according to this Bikerumor article optimal chainline for 190mm is 70-72mm, making 75mm about right for 197mm. With your concern about using offset bolts, I wasn't able to find any with a longer, 10mmØ shoulders and an M8x0.75 threaded end. My solution if I have to run my chainring outboard is much longer bolts threaded though the chainring from the outside, and then tighten chainring nuts on the end of those (10mmØ, stug in the chainring & snug in the spacers. I wont be running my X1 at 2300W though of course - I just checked and reread the thingy with the measurements on the thingy (seen in post #78 of the thread) and it looks like I'll have to do this afterall to work with 197mm afterall

 

[Merle Nelson]

What is the difference between a fat bike adapter and a boost adapter? Is the fat bike adapter more 'dished'?

In a text conversation with Pushkar I asked him if my bike had a CT frame. He said it was the old version of the UC Pro frame.

When it comes to frames and hub widths I had no idea I was getting a boosted or Fat rear hub. When Pushkar told me the bike was coming with 3" wide tires I was surprised, but didn't realized the bike was coming with wider tires to fill the space created by the boost spaced hub. At least that why I think he installed 3" instead of the regular 2.4" tires.

If someone at WW had taken this bike for a ride and applied any pedal power in the first 3 cassette cogs they would have noticed the skipping. Going through the gears on a bike stand wouldn't be the same.
Just a look at the chain line with the chain on the smallest cog would have alerted anyone with a modicum of bike knowledge that there was going to be serious chain cross issues with this setup.

Here's what I think happened:
This is an older UC Pro frame with wide rear hub spacing. In the past these bikes have been built with an internal hub shifting setup (Rohloff, kindernay, etc).
The shifting worked fine because the bike was set up to work with the Rohloff/Kindernay hub. The belt had to be perfectly lined up to work properly and it was. No one who purchased this bike in the past had complained about skipping because the bike was build properly and didn't skip.

Then I asked for something different
I asked for a Shimano 11 speed derailleur instead of a Kindernay hub, because I'd heard about some issues with the Kindernay hub (leaking). "Sure', said Pushkar, "no problem."
But there was a problem.....a huge problem.

No one at WW realized that it takes more than just changing out the hub shifter for a derailleur and installing a bafang chain ring and chain. No one at WW bothered to take the bike out for a test ride and put it through its paces. If they had they would have noticed the massive skipping in the first three cogs.
They would have realized that there is no way the bike should go out to a customer in this state.
Instead, they should have done one of two things; tell the customer that only the Kindernay hub would work with this UC Pro frame, or spend some time trying to fix this problem (i.e. installing a Bafang Fat spider).
But they didn't, so I ended up with an expensive bike that can't do what it's supposed to do (be a high speed commuter).
In another post I'll talk about the bike's second battery mount on the top tube that I didn't ask for and could never, every use. The installed mount and battery adds 4 or 5 inches in height to the top tube making it impossible to step off the seat when coming to a stop. Putting the battery on the top tube was a a really, really dumb idea.

I went for a long ride today and as long as I kept the the cassette on the 15t cog, or larger, the chain didn't skip, but as soon as I shifted into the 13T cog the chain started to skip.
This meant that I had to ride using the 15t cog, which worked out to around 18/19mph, with a 80-90 cadence. To go any faster I had to pedal like a maniac.
I should be able to cruise at 25+ mph with this motor, but the way the bike was delivered that's impossible.

I'm hoping that the Fat spider that Pushkar is sending me will allow me to use the 11t and 13t cog, and allow me to ride my Commuter bike at commuter speeds. I'm not sure if it's possible, but this bike also needs a larger front chain ring, so the chain isn't constantly on the smallest cog at cruising speeds.

I WOULD NOT recommend anyone ordering this bike with a derailleur set up. If you do you will be disappointed.

Unfortunately, I have to say that if I had a chance to do over again I would NOT have ordered this bike.

Ron

Tough story to have to write up. Far tougher still to experience I'm sure. Very telling and informative however, thanks for taking the time and effort to express it all.

From some of your previous posts I think I remember your interest in Kindernay if it would work well. Not at all the ideal, I know, but it sounds like adding the K7 one day would net an incredible commuter bike set up on that frame.

Edit: I know I'm probably an idiot for even mentioning that at this moment. I would expect your bike to be set up and incredible right out of the box.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I stated in my last post that I wouldn't order this bike again, but having said that I have to say that I like riding this bike. It's comfortable and powerful, but for me the drive train problem cancels much of the good this bike offers.
It's like buying a new car that has transmission problems from day one. No matter how much you like look of the car, the interior, or the motor, the transmission issues leaves you disappointed and unhappy with your purchase.

On another subject, does anyone know if 26" wheels/tires can be mounted on this bike? The bike stands really tall and when I step down from the seat my crotch in compressed on the top tube when I put a foot on the ground.
At 5'8" I'm on the border between the small and medium frame, but on my other two medium sized bikes I clear the top tube when I step off the seat.
On the other hand, the riding position is just fine.
Would smaller 26" wheels and tires lower the bike and give me more clearance top tube clearance?

 

[Deacon Blues]

Tough story to have to write up. Far tougher still to experience I'm sure. Very telling and informative however, thanks for taking the time and effort to express it all.

From some of your previous posts I think I remember your interest in Kindernay if it would work well. Not at all the ideal, I know, but it sounds like adding the K7 one day would net an incredible commuter bike set up on that frame.

Edit: I know I'm probably an idiot for even mentioning that at this moment. I would expect your bike to be set up and incredible right out of the box.

I was thinking the same thing about the Kindernay 7 speed, but the Kindernay hub is an expensive option. Pushkar wants $1900 US for the Kindernay option. That's $2400 Canadian!
I hope the 7 speed is considerably cheaper.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Nearly half the price I believe.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

@Fast n' Furious Bafang fat spider puts the chainring offset at 75mm when the chainring is in the little ring position (inboard the spider) according to this Bikerumor article optimal chainline for 190mm is 70-72mm, making that 75mm about right for 197mm. With your concern about using offset bolts, I wasn't able to find any with a longer, 10mmØ shoulders and an M8x0.75 threaded end. My solution if I have to run my chainring outboard is much longer bolts threaded though the chainring from the outside, and then tighten chainring nuts on the end of those (10mmØ, stug in the chainring & snug in the spacers. I wont be running my X1 at 2300W though of course

That sounds good. Real info. I see in numbers. No numbers I eyeball a 'Mark I' model, then use numbers to find the fit.
Yep. A 75mm should be perfect, if it's spaced to slightly favor higher gears = 7th on the center.
If it favors 6th, will 12th have problems? But if it favors 7th, will 1st have problems?
I never go straight uphill, primitive off-road and have no need for 'rock-crawler' gearing. 50% of my riding is above 25mph. What's lower is largely lights and traffic. I sightsee in low gears about 15% of my riding, but never try and climb cliffs, trees, or fly down unimproved mountains or trails.
-
My next concern is should I go 9sp? Is the 12sp cassette too wide and causing shifting problems?
With a cassette, saying 'I don't shift under power' is an impossible fib. How do you stop the bike, shift lower then pedal off?
Am I the world's worst rider? Soon as I start pedaling - and not until - (power on) the bike shifts under power.
My torque sensor and throttle lag in actual output from command input - 900Ms, - 1200Ms is my take.
That's one reason people love IGH's. You can shift gears while stopped.
'Drop throttle then shift' does not work - it cannot work - unless you wait a second to shift, but if I shift multiple gears, each time I tap the pedals to complete the shift, the power will surge during the actual shifting.
That means the drivetrain must be strengthened, we need to stop with the "Ewww, but your shifted under power" and get to building gears and chain that can take it, not insist users ride like Pollyanna pickin' poppies.
BTW. Lucky you, you have a 2300watt (take that Pollyanna) controller. I hear on good authority the German company is saying they are literally years behind in delivery and the country's sliding into another, twice as bad as before, full covid lockdown - like their neighbors Austria and Belgium.

Regards and thanks so much for simple, valuable information.

Fn'F

 

[loamoaf]

Aye I edited my dumb comment because I mixed up the numbers (didn't recheck the diagram in #78 before posting) - that 70mm on the outside of the Bafang fat spider is for a 190mm hub. Looks like I may need spacers to clear 197mm - I have no idea if the Christini fat spider is the same offset as the stock Bafang but the Christini models either come in 177 or 197 so my assumption is the inboard/outboard would work with those - they're using either 11-spd or 12-spd depending on model. Still waiting on my shifter to arrive.

It just occured to me that if Kindernay is no longer doing fat hubs (boooo!) then any frame wider than 148mm (boost) would no longer have that option available. Only IGH option would be Rohloff. Sucks because the Kindernay VII is 'only' €1000/$1130/$1430 CAD which is far cheaper than a Rohloff.

@Merle Nelson I couldn't do the eyeball thing anymore... too much pain & money wasted. $50 on a nice stainless digital caliper may still to this day be the best $50 I've ever spent. As for "shifting under power" I think a better term would be "shifting under load" - as in stomping on the pedals in PAS9 or whatever. There's a moment when the chain comes off the previous gear and the chain has a tiny bit of slack in it that gets taken up. So say you're in gear A and shift to gear B; the chain initially moves over at the bottom of the cog or the beginning of where it starts to wrap, and the chain is now wrapping cog B as it rotates. Once the wheel turns to the point there are no more teeth on cog A engaging the chain and it's completely on cog B there's a small impact when that few mm of slack in the chain is taken up and it gets pulled tight on the chainring. This is for shifting up a gear which is why you should always let it settle in that gear first. Downshifting shouldn't have this issue as the larger cog kepts the chain tight as it 'picks it up' off the smaller one. Jump too many cogs though and you have far fewer teeth engaged on the chain altogether, meaning the teeth that are engage are dealing with way more force. As long as you have the proper chainline (2mm out from the center cog to allow clearance, think Jon mentioned that) then you won't have any issues. People love the 1x for its simplicity and reliability and stuff a 12spd on there no problem - 12 spds are the same spacing as an 11 spd but with an extra cog so they're wider, and they still work fine when set up properly.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Nearly half the price I believe.

I hear it's pretty much the same price (it was on WW's website for a few weeks), but the new shifter adds +$600 more to the 7.
The 7 is not much better ratio than a SA 3sp - and SA's BULLETPROOF, easily replaced at low costs, readily available in the civilized world.
I like the pretty colors, or just think finally Norway has finally produced something world class - besides a bobsled?
Well then, lets have the K'nay owners speak up? I say when the big K'nay 14 says "160Nm MAX or no warranty" right on their catalog makes it unsuitable for ant Ultra with more than 1000watts.
Real question is, why you buy a bike with 200Nm's?
You don't believe K'nay or WW?
You know more than them?
God likes you?
Mom said you are special?
Rome was right. "Mooooo. Baaaaaaa. 'Look at the pretty colors. Forget the specs, I kicked the tires and a-okay".
I thought I was hangin' w/ folks above the herd mentality. Still think so too, but somebody has to ask.
Let's hear the owners speak.

Fn'F'n for sure

 

[Merle Nelson]

Aye I edited my dumb comment because I mixed up the numbers (didn't recheck the diagram in #78 before posting) - that 70mm on the outside of the Bafang fat spider is for a 190mm hub. Looks like I may need spacers to clear 197mm - I have no idea if the Christini fat spider is the same offset as the stock Bafang but the Christini models either come in 177 or 197 so my assumption is the inboard/outboard would work with those - they're using either 11-spd or 12-spd depending on model. Still waiting on my shifter to arrive.

It just occured to me that if Kindernay is no longer doing fat hubs (boooo!) then any frame wider than 148mm (boost) would no longer have that option available. Only IGH option would be Rohloff. Sucks because the Kindernay VII is 'only' €1000/$1130/$1430 CAD which is far cheaper than a Rohloff.

@Merle Nelson I couldn't do the eyeball thing anymore... too much pain & money wasted. $50 on a nice stainless digital caliper may still to this day be the best $50 I've ever spent. As for "shifting under power" I think a better term would be "shifting under load" - as in stomping on the pedals in PAS9 or whatever. There's a moment when the chain comes off the previous gear and the chain has a tiny bit of slack in it that gets taken up. So say you're in gear A and shift to gear B; the chain initially moves over at the bottom of the cog or the beginning of where it starts to wrap, and the chain is now wrapping cog B as it rotates. Once the wheel turns to the point there are no more teeth on cog A engaging the chain and it's completely on cog B there's a small impact when that few mm of slack in the chain is taken up and it gets pulled tight on the chainring. This is for shifting up a gear which is why you should always let it settle in that gear first. Downshifting shouldn't have this issue as the larger cog kepts the chain tight as it 'picks it up' off the smaller one. Jump too many cogs though and you have far fewer teeth engaged on the chain altogether, meaning the teeth that are engage are dealing with way more force. As long as you have the proper chainline (2mm out from the center cog to allow clearance, think Jon mentioned that) then you won't have any issues. People love the 1x for its simplicity and reliability and stuff a 12spd on there no problem - 12 spds are the same spacing as an 11 spd but with an extra cog so they're wider, and they still work fine when set up properly.

Ahhh, I forgot all about the, "no more fat bike Kindernay hubs" - for now.

And yes I need to get a metric digital caliper and tape measure.