My UC Pro has arrived

[BarnBoy]

@Deacon Blues - try this technique to start. Apply brakes and climb on bike with butt on saddle. Release brakes and apply pressure to your lead pedal but not enough pressure to move and hold that pressure for about one second. Now launch bike and you will have full power…
-BB

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Interesting. I'd only seen two type cranks offered - carbon and alloy. WW's photos of the UC's cranks clearance (https://wattwagons.com/products/ultimate_commuter_pro#build_product_direct) showing plenty of room for offset confused me.
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(BB has great developing commentary/ setting torque input/ output response levels. He 'knows things'.
IF: Torque response lag input program values', 'x, y, z' (torque sensing at pedals) are programmed to coincide with separately programed (power at the shaft) 'Output Values' - for each ride level,
Again, following BB's journey, as he said (paraphrasing), 'it's not a 24hr set-up'. Impatient folks. blundereing in the week-long process just setting up innotrace go bananas declaring WW III on WW for not providing Gummies during nervous breakdown/ 'doing the tuna' backflips - and rabidly brooking no dissent.
I'm methodical. If I failed, I'd go see a proven cutting-edge computer hot-doggie's that make a living being 'that guy', and Make it so.
Even if I'm one of 'Jerry's Kid's', I can pay a Benjamin and to access innotrace - or it's not possible.
Fortunately, I build/ format all my own PCs (for 20 years) and BIOS, UEFI is simple to me, so basic programming ....
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It's been stressed to me, 'never shift while stopped'.
I'm 'North Korea Grade' conditioned to come to a stop in a lower, appropriate gear - but still, I find throttle essential to smooth transitions - esp in traffic.
That's on a +65lb machine; torque on 1/4 turn of ring - perfect (48t / 4 = 12teeth) engaged on the rear cogs to create a full wrap on both the 11t and the 13t. Pure overkill and I like that.
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I hated (a term I rarely use) my thumb throttle.
Lacking any precision, it can't be muted/ controlled. Forget it's subject to erratic terrain, bumps, caffine jitters -- whatever --, 1/4 application was no different than 3/8. It was more like off or on, the first 1/2 of it's range being a virtual 'dead zone'.
I replaced it with like kind, new. Same story.
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My riding style requires accelerating during and out of turns, so it's pure throttle or 'pedal-strikes'.
Scenario: Stopped; awaiting turning left, up a rather steep, 4-block-long hill and the red light goes green.
Intel: 60 feet of turn radius before a straight line and suddenly hitting a long, steep grade.
Strategy: Exit turn at fastest velocity - on throttle - clear the radius, crank the pedals and fly. That hill's a joy spot on my commute, why I own an e-bike. It'll be great fun with the Ultra (Can he do Wheelies up that hill? friends want to know!)
I tried a 1/4 turn, twist "full grip" type throttle and never looked back. Response sensitivity is still less than ideal, but far better than before.
A few spares and a 'leftie' to try, these things are pretty cheaply made and changing the plastic grip for something real is near impossible.
I'd cut one apart and figure it out, but it's not that high quality - a 'lipstick on a pig' agenda.
So, I requested a twist grip throttle when I ordered and was told yes.
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Magura, SurRon; Domino even allows a lot of grip options - maybe the Ergons? I intend to find out.
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Most knowledgeable e-bikers came from a bicycle background - like you being a Mac guy for some years.
3 year back, I bought an e-bike to replace my auto and for my health.
My last "bike" before that was a Sugar II - 'donated' as interest on a debt.
Prior, I owned one of Brock Glover's Maico, personal toys - acquired under similar circumstances as above, a Kawasaki 400 and my 1946 Indian Scout as a youngster - when rocks were soft. My experience spectrum on two wheels.
I'm a lucky guy. You're even luckier. You get to get on with seeking perfection - I'm still waiting and plotting my dream.
My age, every day counts.

I don't know the details of that frame, but people quite commonly use 190/197 interchangeably and/or incorrectly. In most contexts it doesn't matter because it denotes the same size frame, tire clearance, chainline, etc. Jump down to 170/177 (the older, smaller "fatbike standard") and you are talking a different sized frame, likely tire clearance, required chainline, etc. That's why in charts like this they are lumped together:

View attachment 108780



They may offer something I don't know about, but I've only seen the Ultra offered with two setups from Bafang--the standard or MTB width, and the "fat" width. In this case it's pretty clear Deacon got the MTB width but needed the Fat to match his hub more closely.



As Deacon says, the Q comes from the cranks. However, I'm pretty sure if you tried to install a Fat spider (Christini or Bafang) with the regular cranks, you'd get interference so you need to use the Fat cranks. Most frames for a 190/197 hub would also interfere with the regular cranks, but that doesn't appear to be the case with Deacon's bike.


Hopefully when people dig into the programming of the X1 they'll figure out how to improve that. With my stock Bafang I have it down to less than 1/4 turn. Of course that's still a lot if you're in a really wrong gear, but in an appropriate gear it works pretty well.

Bafang's Ultra spiders were designed ante 2017 - when the product debuted in Taipei.
I've asked Christini if their (designed post 2019 for xxl fatbike width tires) fat spider's have the same offset as Bafang's.
They will know.
The problems arising accommodating xxl wide tires while keeping the cassette inset at a 177mm's position would include tires rubbing
If the cassettes position "remained the same", offsetting at the ring would = high (small) gears working great, but low (big) gears being out of whack - the opposite Deacon's malady.
9sp cassettes? Sure. Spacers? Well, yeah. It's chain-line should centered where a 12sp's would be - in relation to the correct size axle length., so same story as above.
I have a 197mm 5.5" rear wheelset and the offset's HUGE compared to my 2.75" wheelset.
Being only half as much as it appears, it's still clear to me the wider frame would have a significant outward bias offset, given the fixed midpoint center of the motor/ frame, or the whole frame would have to be offset 50% of the difference in width of the added offset required.
Interchangeable?
"I am running this set up, Chosen 190x12 thru axle hub, 197mm spaced dropouts. I have 2x3.5mm spacers that make it the right width." (https://www.mtbr.com/threads/190mm-rear-hub-for-a-197mm-frame.935001/).
No doubt - with spacers. Inherently different, but adaptable.
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RE: "I'm pretty sure if you tried to install a Fat spider (Christini or Bafang) with the regular cranks, you'd get interference so you need to use the Fat cranks. Most frames for a 190/197 hub would also interfere with the regular cranks..." I think not.
The photo of a UC 177mm Commuter at WW shows ample room for additional offset spiders, and a much wider frame - using the same cranks - the Q factor remains unchanged. I hadn't seen WW offer different offset crank options, only Alloy or CF versions of the same geometry.
Certainly not saying the Maestros at WW can't/ don't/ won't. Just not in my database of 'did, we have or do'.
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RE: digging into programming. BarnBoy is on top of that - I'll be right behind him. No doubt, Innotrace has a learning curve.
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Input delay: A power input delay allowing (up to) 6 teeth on the chain -1/8 turn of the ring - before power kicks in is ideal.
A stock G510 is a big beast in the legal jungle. This is Tyrannosaurus Max - only seen at twilight.
Stock limit 1000watts produces a real 100Nm'ish. 1500watts hits 160Nm. +2300watts smells like 240Nm
*Note to self: Pushkar's "200Nm" figure seems conservative.
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Fast shifting's a reason I went electric, but if I come to a rapid stop downshifting (which can be difficult with 1/8 turn per shift lag, per shifting) several gears in in 20 yards, I ease off with my throttle.
Electric shift, I can let go throttle and downshift if I'm "pedal determined", or just accelerate up to speed.
This assumes I'm one or two gears off, not at the extremes or running WOT.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I went for another 40km ride yesterday. I really enjoy riding this bike, but it's a bit too big for me.
I rode with a senior's group. Most had regular bikes and the leader rides at a slow pace. Because of this I rode half the ride without power. Even though the pace was slow riding this bike without power gave me a good workout. I did use level 1 power on the hills, though.

When I got back home I put the throttle back on.
Because the bike is heavy, and a bit too big for me, I find it hard to get going from a stop. It doesn't help that it takes at least a half of a crank/pedal revolution to get the motor to kick in.
Starting on a slight incline makes it even harder.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like how the throttle applies power, but it will have to do until someone comes up with a better product. Maybe when someone reviews the KarT throttle from Poland (when it gets back in stock).

Thumb throttle lime (Rapid, KT, Bolt)

Thumb throttle for electric bike, scooter. Manufacturer: KarT sp. z o.o., Poland

e-bikestuff.com

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I went for another 40km ride yesterday. I really enjoy riding this bike, but it's a bit too big for me.
I rode with a senior's group. Most had regular bikes and the leader rides at a slow pace. Because of this I rode half the ride without power. Even though the pace was slow riding this bike without power gave me a good workout. I did use level 1 power on the hills, though.

When I got back home I put the throttle back on.
Because the bike is heavy, and a bit too big for me, I find it hard to get going from a stop. It doesn't help that it takes at least a half of a crank/pedal revolution to get the motor to kick in.
Starting on a slight incline makes it even harder.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't like how the throttle applies power, but it will have to do until someone comes up with a better product. Maybe when someone reviews the KarT throttle from Poland (when it gets back in stock).

Thumb throttle lime (Rapid, KT, Bolt)

Thumb throttle for electric bike, scooter. Manufacturer: KarT sp. z o.o., Poland

e-bikestuff.com

I like these because the grips can be changed https://evdrives.com/domino-twist-grip-throttle-0-5k-ohm/

 

[loamoaf]

@Deacon Blues I know KWSeattle replaced the hall sensor in their throttle with SS49E and got better response out of that. Not bad for a sub-$4 part. I'm kind of disappointed in the response of the motor if it takes half a revolution at the crank to get going... I thought part of the benefit of the X1 was being much more responsive and snappier - does it have the same lag to cut power when you stop pedaling? I really hope there's a way to remedy this via the programming harness because that kind of kills the point of it all for me, ugh. I too found out the hard way that I chose a bike too large for me many years ago even though I bought based upon manafucturer's size rating. I'll always err on the side of caution when it comes to sizing stuff like that in the future. Cool that it's not that hard to pedal with no assist though, to get the most out of your bike you're going to have to find some kids to race - definitely not going to really punch it much on the senior group rides unless you start an ebike gang with them!

 

[Deacon Blues]

I like riding on my own a lot, which allows me to 'open her up'.
During my last ride I rode up a steep, long hill. I've ridden it a number of times on my carbon road bike and usually can maintain 8/9 mph. It's a bit of a nasty hill, as it gets steeper near the top.
On my UC Pro I hit 26 mph in level 4! I could have gone even faster. The motor was willing to give me more, but I couldn't pedal any faster. I can't wait to get the larger 48t chain ring installed.
The dash showed 1750W. I wonder how fast I would have gone at 2300W.

Rationally, I don't need to go up hills at almost 30 mph, but damn, it's fun.

 

[scrambler]

@Deacon Blues I'm kind of disappointed in the response of the motor if it takes half a revolution at the crank to get going... I thought part of the benefit of the X1 was being much more responsive and snappier - does it have the same lag to cut power when you stop pedaling?

Sounds like you may be in a mode that is programmed for priority to the cadence sensor.
Cadence sensor has a delay as it only detects the pedaling after a certain amount of rotation.
Torque sensor is instantaneous.
I know the Archon can be programmed to give more or less priority to the cadence component, so that may be the issue.

 

[Deacon Blues]

In my last conversation with Pushkar he mentioned that a software update would be available (not sure what this update would be) when I finally get my password okayed and can make some changes.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I like riding on my own a lot, which allows me to 'open her up'.
During my last ride I rode up a steep, long hill. I've ridden it a number of times on my carbon road bike and usually can maintain 8/9 mph. It's a bit of a nasty hill, as it gets steeper near the top.
On my UC Pro I hit 26 mph in level 4! I could have gone even faster. The motor was willing to give me more, but I couldn't pedal any faster. I can't wait to get the larger 48t chain ring installed.
The dash showed 1750W. I wonder how fast I would have gone at 2300W.

Rationally, I don't need to go up hills at almost 30 mph, but damn, it's fun.

Deacon. You say this is a 'large bike'. Other have also said as much. What size frame do you have?
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Light rain or no, got my riding in today and loved it - not the bike polishing afterwards so much. What's a "rationality"?

 

[loamoaf]

@scrambler I recall watching the WW videos with Pushkar explaining the balancing between cadence & torque sensor input. IIRC the lower eco modes where wholly torque sensor and the sport modes leaned heavily into cadence sensing. It's reassuring to hear that it can be set up to be nice and snappy. I haven't checked recently but for some reason I remember the videos being taken down in the past couple months. Didn't look to difficult to edit the settings though everything looked pretty straight forward. WW should make some standard profile templates available in the programming portal that users can default to, with the ability to tweak small bits from there

 

[scrambler]

The video is still there in the Archon X1 Programming thread below

Archon X1 Programming Thread (questions and experiences)

I am opening this thread as WW is shipping a programming cable for the X1 upgraded motors and I assume others like me below will have questions, or may want to share their own programming experience and results. After watching the WW dec 9th Video below Archon X1 Programming - Creating Ride...

electricbikereview.com

From what that video describes, the parameter Sensitivity torque is the one that determines the mix between the torque sensing and cadence sensing
Low values are supposed to be based more on the torque sensing which gives an assist that is directly proportional to pedal pressure therefore instant (good for MTD and uneven terrain), high values are more based on the cadence sensor, so they maintain a more regular assist, which is better for cruising at regular speed (like street riding).

You may want to check how your modes are programmed right now and see if the experiment matches the video

 

[Deacon Blues]

Fn'F, I ordered a medium, because the other bikes I ride are mediums, but this bike is bigger.
It depends how the manufacturer measures their frames.
I've discussed this with Pushkar and we're working on a solution. He's been very helpful.
I can't speak for others, but for me, at 5' 7" (shrinking as I age), the medium is too large on the UC Pro titanium frame.

I have to say again, that Pushkar has been very responsive and helpful, when it come to getting the right frame size for me.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Sounds like you may be in a mode that is programmed for priority to the cadence sensor.
Cadence sensor has a delay as it only detects the pedaling after a certain amount of rotation.
Torque sensor is instantaneous.
I know the Archon can be programmed to give more or less priority to the cadence component, so that may be the issue.

Sounds like you may be in a mode that is programmed for priority to the cadence sensor.
Cadence sensor has a delay as it only detects the pedaling after a certain amount of rotation.
Torque sensor is instantaneous.
I know the Archon can be programmed to give more or less priority to the cadence component, so that may be the issue.

Fn'F, I ordered a medium, because the other bikes I ride are mediums, but this bike is bigger.
It depends how the manufacturer measures their frames.
I've discussed this with Pushkar and we're working on a solution. He's been very helpful.
I can't speak for others, but for me, at 5' 7" (shrinking as I age), the medium is too large on the UC Pro titanium frame.

I have to say again, that Pushkar has been very responsive and helpful, when it come to getting the right frame size for me.

I'd thought the fork tube would need to be shortened for me - like Vinnie's Hydra's.
Keep hearing the comment "this is a big bike". Sound's like you and I, near the cusp between small and medium frame should opt to go small.
I didn't because (in my small experience) I always felt cramped on smaller frames, or perched in the sky.
I even had to go different size springs in my KINEKT, requiring purchasing two additional sets. It came with heavy springs - useless. I ordered some Mediums. To stiff - useless. I ordered some Soft. Too compliant - useless.
Tried a soft and a medium - Heaven on wheels. I have near full extension, but no bottom outs (PM me if you run into the same same. I have spares).
Noting you have bars with significant rise, I find more leverage with lower bars.
Jones makes a good, inexpensive flat H bar - Aluminum, so it's like the steel Moloko's but half the weight.
Just picked up a complete Dx1 for half price. Should be fine for my rear-hub road machine and give me a chance to learn it.
I'll be cautious of the small button.
Time to go ride, lest I'm caught in the storm hitting you about now.

Fn'F

 

[opimax]

My wife’s small UC next to my large Trek looks like it is a larger bike. The geometry does match, her bike is smaller when riding, maybe feels but it is a small, like a small medium maybe. She is 5’ 6 on a great day and still thinks the small is too large for her, she likes to be able to reach the ground when stopped and seated , barely touch her stretched toes , wobbly.

 

[Deacon Blues]

The UC Pro is definitely an odd sized bike.
When I stand beside the bike the front bars are just under my breastplate, and when I straddle the top tube, with my feet on the ground, there's some pressure on the 'you know where' region, but when I'm riding the bike the pedal-seat-handlebar ratio is just about right for me.

 

[opimax]

I think it is a matter of preference, she being insecure on a bike will never be happy in the seat if she can’t reach the ground. She ride with too much bend in her legs because the seat is low. On my large with me at 6 eve I am about the same as you, comfy riding and have to reach to touch ground and would take just a little more room above the bar when standing.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The UC Pro is definitely an odd sized bike.
When I stand beside the bike the front bars are just under my breastplate, and when I straddle the top tube, with my feet on the ground, there's some pressure on the 'you know where' region, but when I'm riding the bike the pedal-seat-handlebar ratio is just about right for me.

I notice the more rise and the higher the bars (at the grips) from level with the seat, the bigger a bike feels.
That and wider bars - a longer reach and bigger feel - had me moving the saddle forward to get closer, thus having to raise the saddle too high
My symptom of an 'extended reach' was the saddle in an overly forward position, but the saddle/ grips 'level plane' still being out of whack.

 

[Jon A]

The problems arising accommodating xxl wide tires while keeping the cassette inset at a 177mm's position would include tires rubbing

Yes, if you want to run 5" tires you want a 190/197 hub. To be clear, I was saying the cassette stays in the same place when converting from 190 to 197, or from 170 to 177. Obviously 197 places the cassette 10mm farther out than 177 as shown in the previous chart.

RE: "I'm pretty sure if you tried to install a Fat spider (Christini or Bafang) with the regular cranks, you'd get interference so you need to use the Fat cranks. Most frames for a 190/197 hub would also interfere with the regular cranks..." I think not.
The photo of a UC 177mm Commuter at WW View attachment 108840 shows ample room for additional offset spiders, and a much wider frame - using the same cranks - the Q factor remains unchanged. I hadn't seen WW offer different offset crank options, only Alloy or CF versions of the same geometry.

Uhm, no. I'm not going to be sure enough to tell people parts will fit based upon a picture of....different parts. The fat spiders have a lot more offset and the fat cranks have a lot of clearance built into them. If you look closely at Bafang's drawings it shows a likely interference:

When you include the Christini fat spider in that, its smaller bolt circle makes interference even more likely. I'm not saying there's zero chance the combo would fit, but I'm certainly not going to tell people it will.

And no, the standard cranks with 100% certainty will not fit my frame. They obviously will fit Deacon's, but that frame won't clear a 5" tire. I really doubt you find a frame that can clear a tire of that size that doesn't need the fat cranks. That's what they're for.

 

[loamoaf]

So I tried digging through Miranda's new site but they don't have their charts on every crank arm page like they used to - but I did find the chart. Note the 'FB' versions are for fatbikes.

I ordered 2 pair - a 152mm Q:16 & a 170mm Q:8 FB and they both clear the Christini + Wolftooth 30T on the outer position. I believe the Bafang fat cranks are closest to 55Q: 16 but I could be wrong - from the diagram in Jon's post it looks like the standard Bafang cranks are closest to the Q:8. Unfortunately in my case the snazzy blue cranks I got don't clear my chainstay - the black ones do so by around 2mm so I'm seriously considering ordering another set... ugh. I wish these both would have cleared fine as I'm just trying to go as narrow as safely possible while as short as I can comfortably go, ground clearance and being easier to keep a higher cadence and all that. No idea what size I'd get if a test ride proves to show the black cranks will wind upknocking into the stays under trail riding conditions.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Yes, if you want to run 5" tires you want a 190/197 hub. To be clear, I was saying the cassette stays in the same place when converting from 190 to 197, or from 170 to 177. Obviously 197 places the cassette 10mm farther out than 177 as shown in the previous chart.


Uhm, no. I'm not going to be sure enough to tell people parts will fit based upon a picture of....different parts. The fat spiders have a lot more offset and the fat cranks have a lot of clearance built into them. If you look closely at Bafang's drawings it shows a likely interference:

View attachment 109109

When you include the Christini fat spider in that, its smaller bolt circle makes interference even more likely. I'm not saying there's zero chance the combo would fit, but I'm certainly not going to tell people it will.

And no, the standard cranks with 100% certainty will not fit my frame. They obviously will fit Deacon's, but that frame won't clear a 5" tire. I really doubt you find a frame that can clear a tire of that size that doesn't need the fat cranks. That's what they're for.

Okay. TY. Comparing our stock WattWagon's cranks, they're much wider than Bafang's.
The measurement of concern is the distance from adapter's base to inside of the chainring. That's my relevant blueprint.
I see Bafang's 48mm and (fat) 70mm - from frame center - a 22mm additional offset.
Since I have a near identical machine ordered, I'm relying on an owner I trust for accurate information. He's teaching me.
Anywho, My question: Is the Bafang fat-spider the same offset as the fat-Christini?
My reason: I'll be running 4.5 sand tires - part time/ and addressing cog jumping in top gears running my 3"ers in the City.
What I know: Christini's dimensions . 18mm.
What's missing: Bafang's spider's dimensions (doubting it's 22mm, but could happen).
You've been helpful, so if you know bless your soul and spit it out. It's elusive information.
Happy Holidays !!!