tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
I’m a recovering BBSer. And complete Grinner! Rock on!
My DIY builds: GMAC, BBSHD, 9C RH212, CYC Photon, ToSeven DM01
- Thread starter linklemming
- Start date
linklemming
Well-Known Member
What on earth are you talking about, this thread is filled with them
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Not worth even responding to. Unless you burn one first. A sterling example of ignore at its best.
Useless.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
I most certainly am willing to do a build to entertain you. Send me your email address and I will request the funds thru paypal.
72V 16.5ah battery, 9C-RH212_Std DD motor Build (with statorade), CA3 and phaserunner on my surly Ogre.
Put up or shut up....your previous pic was of one of my early setups(on 26 inch wheels I abandoned two years ago)...Im way past that these days with pics/info on this thread to prove it. Stop Trolling, your a lost soul and clearly havnt read thru this thread(with extensive pics to prove your ignorance)
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tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Hopeless. Buzzy can’t parse the definition of something as simple as ignore. I’ve not read a post from the stoner in 6 months.
Pine_marten
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I live at the foot of an ancient escarpment along Lake Superior. The very top is about 1,000 feet above the lake. There are some plateaus but coming down it's easy to get above 30 mph coasting so i end up riding the brakes a lot. Makes me think of a rear hub motor set up with regen braking, not so much to charge the battery but just for a more elegant way to manage the descents. I really like my current BBS02 build and it climbs like a champ. I will probably try a higher spec front brake with a 180mm rotor before jumping into another build, but all that braking coming down is getting on my nerves.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Lots of stuff been happening and I am just too busy riding (ridden every day(20-30 miles)) for the last two months.
Suspension Seapost(s)
I am now running both the kinekt seatpost and the redshift. Always thought they were a gimmick due to experiences many years ago. Not sure how I would live without them these days. No real differences other than the redshift has a weight limit of 240#. I like the more stealthy appearance/design of the redshift although the kinekt is easier to adjust due to better tool access.
Riding back to back with my old Juiced CCX
I sold my old juiced CCX to a neighbor who has become my new riding buddy and he is just as crazy about ebikes as me. As such, I have been able to compare my GMAC and BBSHD bikes to the CCX mid ride and must say I am impressed with how efficient the CCX seems to be. I settled on large 27.5 tires(27.5x2.6) way back for comfort reasons on my GMAC and BBSHD and loved the ride. Riding the CCX with 29x2.25F/29x2.1R just feels like it takes so much less energy. I know this equates to how much more efficient 29 is compared to 27.5 which is well documented but to experience it back to back on the same ride was eye opening.
This CCX will be converted to a GMAC kit from hilleater in a few weeks. More details soon in my CCX thread.
Surly BC/BBSHD with 27.5x2.8 Johnny Watts
Cush city. Super traction although not as good as 27.5x2.8 nobby nics. I am able to do several trails I would consider full suspension only. Not the best for these trails but allows me to extend rides into these areas (everything is a compromise). I will definately keep this wheelset ready for some rides. Fun to ride although I need to crank up the assist level a notch.
Surly BC/BBSHD with 29x2.25 Smart Sams
I decided to mount some 29x2.25 smartsams on some 29r wheels which originally came with my Surly BC. I originally tried some 29x2.35 johnny watts and fork clearance with the top of the tire at 30psi was about a 1mm so I ordered a set of smartsams in 29x2.25 and get much better tire clearance. Initial ride today confirmed how much much efficient this setup was. Hard to put an exact number on it but I definately need less assist, probably 3wh/mile less.
I will build up a new rear wheel using an existing DT swiss 350 hybrid 36H hub for this setup
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
I am the process of converting my Surly Troll GMAC 27.5 setup to a Surly Ogre GMAC 29 setup. I am in the process of painting the Ogre frame in Satin Black (was 'cold slate blue' originally). Next step will be building the wheels and moving all the other parts over. The Troll has been a great frame and setup but was always a temporary solution due to covid. Most likely will be a Johnny watts 29x2.6F/2.35R setup
Suspension Seapost(s)
I am now running both the kinekt seatpost and the redshift. Always thought they were a gimmick due to experiences many years ago. Not sure how I would live without them these days. No real differences other than the redshift has a weight limit of 240#. I like the more stealthy appearance/design of the redshift although the kinekt is easier to adjust due to better tool access.
Riding back to back with my old Juiced CCX
I sold my old juiced CCX to a neighbor who has become my new riding buddy and he is just as crazy about ebikes as me. As such, I have been able to compare my GMAC and BBSHD bikes to the CCX mid ride and must say I am impressed with how efficient the CCX seems to be. I settled on large 27.5 tires(27.5x2.6) way back for comfort reasons on my GMAC and BBSHD and loved the ride. Riding the CCX with 29x2.25F/29x2.1R just feels like it takes so much less energy. I know this equates to how much more efficient 29 is compared to 27.5 which is well documented but to experience it back to back on the same ride was eye opening.
This CCX will be converted to a GMAC kit from hilleater in a few weeks. More details soon in my CCX thread.
Surly BC/BBSHD with 27.5x2.8 Johnny Watts
Cush city. Super traction although not as good as 27.5x2.8 nobby nics. I am able to do several trails I would consider full suspension only. Not the best for these trails but allows me to extend rides into these areas (everything is a compromise). I will definately keep this wheelset ready for some rides. Fun to ride although I need to crank up the assist level a notch.
Surly BC/BBSHD with 29x2.25 Smart Sams
I decided to mount some 29x2.25 smartsams on some 29r wheels which originally came with my Surly BC. I originally tried some 29x2.35 johnny watts and fork clearance with the top of the tire at 30psi was about a 1mm so I ordered a set of smartsams in 29x2.25 and get much better tire clearance. Initial ride today confirmed how much much efficient this setup was. Hard to put an exact number on it but I definately need less assist, probably 3wh/mile less.
I will build up a new rear wheel using an existing DT swiss 350 hybrid 36H hub for this setup
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
I am the process of converting my Surly Troll GMAC 27.5 setup to a Surly Ogre GMAC 29 setup. I am in the process of painting the Ogre frame in Satin Black (was 'cold slate blue' originally). Next step will be building the wheels and moving all the other parts over. The Troll has been a great frame and setup but was always a temporary solution due to covid. Most likely will be a Johnny watts 29x2.6F/2.35R setup
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
Some new updates
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
The GMAC is now on on a Surly Ogre frame (the blue one showed previously). I decided to paint it satin black using paint from spray.bike. This was a huge nightmare and took awhile. All the mounting holes made sanding and painting a chore. Many people like spray.bike paint but it just didnt click for me and is very $$. Due to all the mounting holes/angles etc.., it was hard to get a consistent flat black texture/surface finish. Same with the clear coat. In the end I just sprayed on a ton of clearcoat and finished it up to a satin fininsh with 1000grit sandpaper and rubbing compound. Next time I will just use an automotive spray paint in gloss and get the same satin finish with sandpaper and rubbing compound for less $$ and time waiting for shipping (had to order twice as I used twice what was expected).
This setup with Johnny watts 29x2.35F/2.35R is definately more efficient by a few wh/mile for the same average speed although I tend to just ride faster now by a few mph average. I do miss the wider 27.5x2.6 tires from before but can still mount these old wheels/tires/motor or even mount a set of 27.5x2.8 tires.
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
Decided to convert this one to an Ogre as well with SmartSam 29x2.6F/2.35R but can also use 27.5x2.8 johhny watts like in the attached pic. The default champagne color paint looks really good IMHO.
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
The GMAC is now on on a Surly Ogre frame (the blue one showed previously). I decided to paint it satin black using paint from spray.bike. This was a huge nightmare and took awhile. All the mounting holes made sanding and painting a chore. Many people like spray.bike paint but it just didnt click for me and is very $$. Due to all the mounting holes/angles etc.., it was hard to get a consistent flat black texture/surface finish. Same with the clear coat. In the end I just sprayed on a ton of clearcoat and finished it up to a satin fininsh with 1000grit sandpaper and rubbing compound. Next time I will just use an automotive spray paint in gloss and get the same satin finish with sandpaper and rubbing compound for less $$ and time waiting for shipping (had to order twice as I used twice what was expected).
This setup with Johnny watts 29x2.35F/2.35R is definately more efficient by a few wh/mile for the same average speed although I tend to just ride faster now by a few mph average. I do miss the wider 27.5x2.6 tires from before but can still mount these old wheels/tires/motor or even mount a set of 27.5x2.8 tires.
Surly Troll with GMAC(27.5) going to Surly Ogre (29)
Decided to convert this one to an Ogre as well with SmartSam 29x2.6F/2.35R but can also use 27.5x2.8 johhny watts like in the attached pic. The default champagne color paint looks really good IMHO.
Attachments
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
Interesting ride today on the Surly Ogre (29) with BBSHD. Used 460wh but ALOT of climbing
Whats even more amazing is that I rode this with a neighbor using a GMAC on my old Juiced CCX and it had zero issues like overheating and we went up some pretty steep technical stuff (>15%). Most definately not the realm of the GMAC which was beyond its limits but it survived.
Edited: Total vertical reported appears to be an anomaly, its more like 3k ft.
Whats even more amazing is that I rode this with a neighbor using a GMAC on my old Juiced CCX and it had zero issues like overheating and we went up some pretty steep technical stuff (>15%). Most definately not the realm of the GMAC which was beyond its limits but it survived.
Edited: Total vertical reported appears to be an anomaly, its more like 3k ft.
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
New DIY Ebike (52V, RH212 Std Wind)
Althoughy my BBSHD and GMAC builds suit me fine for my current needs, I have wanted to try a 9C RH212 Direct Drive Setup for awhile.
From analysis I have done usng the tools available at grin, it should be similar in performance to my 10t GMAC geared hub drive.
I used a surly bridge club frame for this build as I had it lying around (it has also hosted my GMAC and BBSHD). Basically its
standard style vertical dropouts work easiest with the 9C RH212 std wind motor as compared to the Surly Ogre/Troll style horizontal style.
Its not the horizontal dropouts as much as the adapters that would need to be fabricated.
RH212 motor - its a beast
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/rh212-std.html
I also ordered statorade (10ml) and their V4 torquearm
Anyone considering this motor should also buy some spacing washers available thru grin at the same time. There is a washer that needs to fit over the axle
but inside the cassette and the supplied one with my motor was not thick enough to keep the cassette from rubbing against the frame when
the motor was mounted.
So the cost of a few washers + shipping was $30, uggghhhh, Wont arrive till next week.
As it turns out, you can use the washer available here, although the torque arm is a POS imho
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C7J1ZD7?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
RH212 BridgeClub(BC) Build
I wont go into all the details (unless requested) but I had to settle on a PAS only system vs torque sensing BB (which I also have) due to chainstay clearance issues for now.
See attachment for a pic of the completed build
Ride comparison between my current Surly Ogre GMAC build and the new Surly BC RH212 build
Surly Ogre (52V, 17.5ah, GMAC 10t, 29x2.6F, 29x2.35R Johnny Watts Tires, Phaserunner, CA3)
Surly BC (52V, 17.5ah, RH212, 27.5x2.6 Johnny Watts Tires, Phaserunner, CA3)
Note that I used to run the GMAC on the BC frame with 27.5 tires. From my testing, it seemed about 1-2wh per mile less efficient that a similar 29 inch bike which is why I ride the Ogres now.
All Phaserunner and CA settings as similar as possible, both run in PAS mode (no torque sensor) for this test to have a similar feel although I usually run the GMAC in torque sensor mode.
This ride can be broken down into 3 sections.
Section 1: A 6.5 mile winding gravel path following a creek downstream.
Pretty much flat but lots of turns.
All downwind but shielded from the wind for the most parts.
Need to keep speed reasonable due to gravel/loose corners and other trail users.
Section 2: A 7 mile more open gravel winding path starting flat and getting into a bit of a headwind. Go as fast as you want while still making the gravel corners
A few good shortish climbs 6-8%, many rolling 4-6% hills and then a good 8% downhill section.
Section 3: A wide high speed bicyle commuting lane (seperate from traffic) with 4-6% rolling hills, fighting a headwind the whole way
Total miles: 18.62 miles, 17.4 average speed, 728ft elevation gain
Wind conditons today were winds at 20mph, gusting to 30mph (really an issue in sections 2&3). Temps were mid 50s(F)
Rode with a neighbor (very fast ebike rider, ex motox, 70# lighter than me), and we switched bike(ogre and BC) every few miles.
RH212 Impression
Can we say quiet! First thing I notice when getting on this bike is the tire noise although both bikes were running the same tires. Needs about 200-300w more PAS assist to have a similar feel.
That being said, the power delivery was way smoother due to the lower torque and more powerful at the top end. Throttle is more about adding top speed than anything significant down low. Temps stay LOW no matter the situation. During the 8% downhill in section 2, I had the throttle pegged at 1500W and could only reach 23mph due to the headwind. Due to the lower torque, the motor just feels less responsive although still powerful. This setup is more about top end power although doable for this ride. If I was wanting a high speed commuter, this would be the ticket. Max Temps today were around 38C during section 3 running about 1000w and 26mph. I definately notice the additional 8# or so weight. The bike is less responsive but more planted.
While not part of this ride, I did try a 1500w max power run on section 3 yesterday fighting a 15mph headwind, all above 28mph and max motor temps was 45C.
GMAC Impressions
The bike just feels more lively, the higher torque from the motor just feels more responsive for everyday riding on this trail. The lighter weight contributes to this as well. Max motor temps
were 95C in section 3 at about 1000w and 24mph.
Overall efficiency
15.5 wh/mile for RH212 for section 1, half of section 2, 15.6wh for the GMAC.
25.6 for the RH212 for the whole ride vs 25.9 for the GMAC, we both pushed the RH212 harder than the GMAC
Note that the goal of this ride was not efficiency but to push the bikes as hard as possible back to back on the same ride/conditions
Althoughy my BBSHD and GMAC builds suit me fine for my current needs, I have wanted to try a 9C RH212 Direct Drive Setup for awhile.
From analysis I have done usng the tools available at grin, it should be similar in performance to my 10t GMAC geared hub drive.
I used a surly bridge club frame for this build as I had it lying around (it has also hosted my GMAC and BBSHD). Basically its
standard style vertical dropouts work easiest with the 9C RH212 std wind motor as compared to the Surly Ogre/Troll style horizontal style.
Its not the horizontal dropouts as much as the adapters that would need to be fabricated.
RH212 motor - its a beast
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/rh212-std.html
I also ordered statorade (10ml) and their V4 torquearm
Anyone considering this motor should also buy some spacing washers available thru grin at the same time. There is a washer that needs to fit over the axle
but inside the cassette and the supplied one with my motor was not thick enough to keep the cassette from rubbing against the frame when
the motor was mounted.
So the cost of a few washers + shipping was $30, uggghhhh, Wont arrive till next week.
As it turns out, you can use the washer available here, although the torque arm is a POS imho
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C7J1ZD7?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
RH212 BridgeClub(BC) Build
I wont go into all the details (unless requested) but I had to settle on a PAS only system vs torque sensing BB (which I also have) due to chainstay clearance issues for now.
See attachment for a pic of the completed build
Ride comparison between my current Surly Ogre GMAC build and the new Surly BC RH212 build
Surly Ogre (52V, 17.5ah, GMAC 10t, 29x2.6F, 29x2.35R Johnny Watts Tires, Phaserunner, CA3)
Surly BC (52V, 17.5ah, RH212, 27.5x2.6 Johnny Watts Tires, Phaserunner, CA3)
Note that I used to run the GMAC on the BC frame with 27.5 tires. From my testing, it seemed about 1-2wh per mile less efficient that a similar 29 inch bike which is why I ride the Ogres now.
All Phaserunner and CA settings as similar as possible, both run in PAS mode (no torque sensor) for this test to have a similar feel although I usually run the GMAC in torque sensor mode.
This ride can be broken down into 3 sections.
Section 1: A 6.5 mile winding gravel path following a creek downstream.
Pretty much flat but lots of turns.
All downwind but shielded from the wind for the most parts.
Need to keep speed reasonable due to gravel/loose corners and other trail users.
Section 2: A 7 mile more open gravel winding path starting flat and getting into a bit of a headwind. Go as fast as you want while still making the gravel corners
A few good shortish climbs 6-8%, many rolling 4-6% hills and then a good 8% downhill section.
Section 3: A wide high speed bicyle commuting lane (seperate from traffic) with 4-6% rolling hills, fighting a headwind the whole way
Total miles: 18.62 miles, 17.4 average speed, 728ft elevation gain
Wind conditons today were winds at 20mph, gusting to 30mph (really an issue in sections 2&3). Temps were mid 50s(F)
Rode with a neighbor (very fast ebike rider, ex motox, 70# lighter than me), and we switched bike(ogre and BC) every few miles.
RH212 Impression
Can we say quiet! First thing I notice when getting on this bike is the tire noise although both bikes were running the same tires. Needs about 200-300w more PAS assist to have a similar feel.
That being said, the power delivery was way smoother due to the lower torque and more powerful at the top end. Throttle is more about adding top speed than anything significant down low. Temps stay LOW no matter the situation. During the 8% downhill in section 2, I had the throttle pegged at 1500W and could only reach 23mph due to the headwind. Due to the lower torque, the motor just feels less responsive although still powerful. This setup is more about top end power although doable for this ride. If I was wanting a high speed commuter, this would be the ticket. Max Temps today were around 38C during section 3 running about 1000w and 26mph. I definately notice the additional 8# or so weight. The bike is less responsive but more planted.
While not part of this ride, I did try a 1500w max power run on section 3 yesterday fighting a 15mph headwind, all above 28mph and max motor temps was 45C.
GMAC Impressions
The bike just feels more lively, the higher torque from the motor just feels more responsive for everyday riding on this trail. The lighter weight contributes to this as well. Max motor temps
were 95C in section 3 at about 1000w and 24mph.
Overall efficiency
15.5 wh/mile for RH212 for section 1, half of section 2, 15.6wh for the GMAC.
25.6 for the RH212 for the whole ride vs 25.9 for the GMAC, we both pushed the RH212 harder than the GMAC
Note that the goal of this ride was not efficiency but to push the bikes as hard as possible back to back on the same ride/conditions
Attachments
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Hmmmm, So many interesting things.
- power from the 9C motor, and the impact on the ride. I've also been curious about the differences between that direct vs. a geared hub motor setup.
- efficiency from the different wheels between the Ogre and BC. Aside from slight differences in rider fit/position I'm assuming that it was the differences in the wheels that had the most affect on w/mile efficiency numbers?
- chainstay clearance issues with the BC ... now where have I heard that before? I know I'd like to see some of the specific issues you ran into.
I miss getting back to riding "normally" in March (and a bunch of things about riding in/around Louisville). Around here while my urban trails are now clear I still have to run studs for the inevitable late season storms and the current mess that are the off road trails in the woods.
- power from the 9C motor, and the impact on the ride. I've also been curious about the differences between that direct vs. a geared hub motor setup.
- efficiency from the different wheels between the Ogre and BC. Aside from slight differences in rider fit/position I'm assuming that it was the differences in the wheels that had the most affect on w/mile efficiency numbers?
- chainstay clearance issues with the BC ... now where have I heard that before? I know I'd like to see some of the specific issues you ran into.
I miss getting back to riding "normally" in March (and a bunch of things about riding in/around Louisville). Around here while my urban trails are now clear I still have to run studs for the inevitable late season storms and the current mess that are the off road trails in the woods.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Very similar results here, including the findings indicating the direct drive used quite a bit more power when ridden at lower speeds, to my findings several years ago. At that time, I took a RAD City that I had installed a 1500w Leaf DD into, and installed a MAC 12t - with no other changes (same 35a KT controller with just a few changes to go from DD to geared hub type motor) . Battery range was increased significantly with the MAC (30%?), and low to mid speed performance was WAY better with the MAC.
My conclusion, short story, was that the DD was gutless as compared to the geared hub for MY purposes (typical 5-15mph w/hills). I will freely admit that the DD would likely be the better choice if my riding were being done at higher speeds, with less stop and go. -Al
My conclusion, short story, was that the DD was gutless as compared to the geared hub for MY purposes (typical 5-15mph w/hills). I will freely admit that the DD would likely be the better choice if my riding were being done at higher speeds, with less stop and go. -Al
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Yes, the DD is definately gutless down low. Ironically it doesnt feel so bad using PAS only with no throttle where my legs can supply the low end torque. The throttle just seems gutless. I have all the same CA3 setup for throttle as the GMAC, perhaps I need to map the throttle differently.
This setup would definately not be fun for stop/go and lower speeds. The ride I did with it is always above 15 and I only need to stop a few times if at all. I was surprised to see the whole ride efficiency to be better than the GMAC.
I want to get the torque sensor setup and see how that feels.
Whats remarkable to me is the low temps(Max 45c). The RH212 is definately capable of more power and would very close to the GMAC 10T if I ran it at 72V. That being said, I dont really have any need for that level of performance/top speed. The GMAC is more than enough, the only issue being hot at the end of a ride if I really push it.
Definately needs a different riding style, I will be playing with it this summer
linklemming
Well-Known Member
On the efficiency, the BC with the smaller wheels is a tad less efficient from my experience. That would show that the RH212 is even more efficient for this ride. The ride chosen would be the best case in favor of the RH212 (high speed/power, not much elevation gain)
Rider Fit/position is identical except the Ogre has an aero position on the handlebars which make a HUGE difference at top speeds. That being said, it wasnt used for this test.
The BC just isnt made for the 42t chainring I want to use up front with the erider torque sensor setup
Here are the BC max chainring specs
1x (Mtn): 34T
2x (Mtn): 26/40T
3x (Mtn): 22/36/44T
1x (Boost): 40T
2x (Boost): 32/42T
The erider uses a 2x spider. Back when I had the GMAC on it, I got around this by using the 42t chainring on the outer position and using an 11 speed 11-52t cassette and not using the two largest cassette gears.
Im currently using a old 2007ish LX hollowtech triple crankset with 42tooth offset(to the outside) chainring in the middle position and a 9 speed cassette (11-36)
I tried a 40t chainring on the inner position on the erider spider and while it cleared it was REALLY close.
I might be able to make a workaround by making a spacer between the erider spider and BB (the spider bolts to the BB) but I could only gain about 2mm at best with this setup.
Not sure how far I will go trying to solve any of these issues as I doubt I will stick with the DD in the long run.
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tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
I bought a 9C FH212 from Grin. Along side every clone, the differences are visually obvious. Definitely a refined motor. But, I’m having fits trying to fit the cooling fins. A three handed job it seems.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Spent the last couple of days doing the same ride on the RH212, BBSHD and GMAC.
This would be the worst case for the 'gravel rides' I do as far as elevation gain per distance, My MTB rides are harder/steeper. Other gravel rides are longer with more overall elevation gain
Basically 17.5 miles and 1120 ft elevation gain. Decent long 8-10% climb.
RH212 (mild wind, mid 50s F)
CA readings
17.54 miles
21.6wh/mile
6.98ah
377wh
Max Temp 42C
Satiator charging readings
7.11ah
Garmin
Average speed 15.8mph
Distance 17.53
BBSHD (very windy 25-30mph, mid 30s F)
Garmin
Average speed 16.5mph
Distance 16.13
Satiator charging readings 7.76ah
GMAC (mild wind, HIgh 30s F)
CA readings
17.45 miles
19.1wh/mile
6.25ah
332 wh
Max Temp 78C
Satiator charging readings
6.37ah
Garmin
Average speed 15.8mph
Distance 17.45 miles
Summary
I think what this data shows is that the RH212 isnt all that bad when looking at the big picture. Sure its the worst on the climbs as far as efficiency, but overall its 'about the same'...nothing drastic. The BBSHD ride was pretty windy although much of this ride is protected from the wind. It was also a shorter ride as I didnt feel like dealing with the wind anymore. That being said, the higher wind and higher average speed costs efficiency.
I will repeat the BBSHD ride in a few days
This would be the worst case for the 'gravel rides' I do as far as elevation gain per distance, My MTB rides are harder/steeper. Other gravel rides are longer with more overall elevation gain
Basically 17.5 miles and 1120 ft elevation gain. Decent long 8-10% climb.
RH212 (mild wind, mid 50s F)
CA readings
17.54 miles
21.6wh/mile
6.98ah
377wh
Max Temp 42C
Satiator charging readings
7.11ah
Garmin
Average speed 15.8mph
Distance 17.53
BBSHD (very windy 25-30mph, mid 30s F)
Garmin
Average speed 16.5mph
Distance 16.13
Satiator charging readings 7.76ah
GMAC (mild wind, HIgh 30s F)
CA readings
17.45 miles
19.1wh/mile
6.25ah
332 wh
Max Temp 78C
Satiator charging readings
6.37ah
Garmin
Average speed 15.8mph
Distance 17.45 miles
Summary
I think what this data shows is that the RH212 isnt all that bad when looking at the big picture. Sure its the worst on the climbs as far as efficiency, but overall its 'about the same'...nothing drastic. The BBSHD ride was pretty windy although much of this ride is protected from the wind. It was also a shorter ride as I didnt feel like dealing with the wind anymore. That being said, the higher wind and higher average speed costs efficiency.
I will repeat the BBSHD ride in a few days
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
Update from last post
I have given up trying to compare the RH212 to the GMAC and BBSHD for the ride I had outlined(worst case for hub drives). I seem to always do it faster in the BBSHD which makes it hard to compare stats like efficiency. This probably just shows that the BBSHD/mid drive is just better/more fun on this ride.
RH212 update
This motor is just a monster, total overkill for my needs at 52V(with statorade). I have done stupid things like just gone full throttle in high winds(20mph+) for about 5 miles doing 4-6% rolling hills reaching speeds up to 32mph. Its very rare to see temps over 50C. I have had it up to about 74C once but that was total abuse of the battery which is now the weakest link.
72V would be AWESOME with this motor although I have no need for that level of performance/weight.
Despite the performance, its not the most fun bike to ride. Perhaps its the cadence sensing assist, maybe just the weight or lack of low speed torque. I plan on putting a torque sensing BB on soon to see if that changes anything.
Grin has come out with some new torque arm designs which is a big complaint I have with my RH212(with V4 torquearm) in that I need to carry quite alot of tools to be able to change a tire.
I just ordered the V5 torque arm
https://ebikes.ca/blog.html
https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/259/product/1668/
This motor/wheel combo seems to always have some annoying background noises (the motor being silent just allows more noises to be noticed). It sound like spokes havnt been prestressed although I have gone through all the steps.
The RH212 doesnt have the most favorable spoke tension ratio
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....84_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=0&lelb=out&relb=out
Compared to my GMAC setup
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....584_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=2&lelb=out&relb=in
I dont see myself keeping this setup in the long term but am having fun comparing all the ebikes(GMAC/BBSHD/RH212) I have under different riding conditions
Summary
So much more fun and informative than buying a Vado SL and declaring everything else to be crap
I have given up trying to compare the RH212 to the GMAC and BBSHD for the ride I had outlined(worst case for hub drives). I seem to always do it faster in the BBSHD which makes it hard to compare stats like efficiency. This probably just shows that the BBSHD/mid drive is just better/more fun on this ride.
RH212 update
This motor is just a monster, total overkill for my needs at 52V(with statorade). I have done stupid things like just gone full throttle in high winds(20mph+) for about 5 miles doing 4-6% rolling hills reaching speeds up to 32mph. Its very rare to see temps over 50C. I have had it up to about 74C once but that was total abuse of the battery which is now the weakest link.
72V would be AWESOME with this motor although I have no need for that level of performance/weight.
Despite the performance, its not the most fun bike to ride. Perhaps its the cadence sensing assist, maybe just the weight or lack of low speed torque. I plan on putting a torque sensing BB on soon to see if that changes anything.
Grin has come out with some new torque arm designs which is a big complaint I have with my RH212(with V4 torquearm) in that I need to carry quite alot of tools to be able to change a tire.
I just ordered the V5 torque arm
https://ebikes.ca/blog.html
https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/259/product/1668/
This motor/wheel combo seems to always have some annoying background noises (the motor being silent just allows more noises to be noticed). It sound like spokes havnt been prestressed although I have gone through all the steps.
The RH212 doesnt have the most favorable spoke tension ratio
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....84_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=0&lelb=out&relb=out
Compared to my GMAC setup
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....584_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=2&lelb=out&relb=in
I dont see myself keeping this setup in the long term but am having fun comparing all the ebikes(GMAC/BBSHD/RH212) I have under different riding conditions
Summary
So much more fun and informative than buying a Vado SL and declaring everything else to be crap
Last edited:
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Summary
So much more fun and informative than buying a Vado SL and declaring everything else to be crap
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
An interesting design in V5. That star centerpiece was used at least 10 years ago. I have a couple left. But Grin managed to incorporate it and improve!Update from last post
I have given up trying to compare the RH212 to the GMAC and BBSHD for the ride I had outlined(worst case for hub drives). I seem to always do it faster in the BBSHD which makes it hard to compare stats like efficiency. This probably just shows that the BBSHD/mid drive is just better/more fun on this ride.
RH212 update
This motor is just a monster, total overkill for my needs at 52V(with statorade). I have done stupid things like just gone full throttle in high winds(20mph+) for about 5 miles doing 4-6% rolling hills reaching speeds up to 32mph. Its very rare to see temps over 50C. I have had it up to about 74C once but that was total abuse of the battery which is now the weakest link.
72V would be AWESOME with this motor although I have no need for that level of performance/weight.
Despite the performance, its not the most fun bike to ride. Perhaps its the cadence sensing assist, maybe just the weight or lack of low speed torque. I plan on putting a torque sensing BB on soon to see if that changes anything.
Grin has come out with some new torque arm designs which is a big complaint I have with my RH212(with V4 torquearm) in that I need to carry quite alot of tools to be able to change a tire.
I just ordered the V5 torque arm
https://ebikes.ca/blog.html
https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/259/product/1668/
This motor/wheel combo seems to always have some annoying background noises (the motor being silent just allows more noises to be noticed). It sound like spokes havnt been prestressed although I have gone through all the steps.
The RH212 doesnt have the most favorable spoke tension ratio
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....84_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=0&lelb=out&relb=out
Compared to my GMAC setup
https://ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc....584_e565_lo1_ro1_w31&cross=2&lelb=out&relb=in
I dont see myself keeping this setup in the long term but am having fun comparing all the ebikes(GMAC/BBSHD/RH212) I have under different riding conditions
Summary
So much more fun and informative than buying a Vado SL and declaring everything else to be crap
These were problem solvers! ALiexpress model sucks, mine are all NOS.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing the history
RH212 update
I decided to install a Erider Torque sensor BB and must say that it completely transformed the bike which totally surprised me. Sure I prefer the feel of torque sensors but the BBSHD cadence sensing feels pretty good (my favorite DIY ebike to ride). I was considering selling the RH212 and must say now that I would have a hard time parting with it. Did a 36 mile ride today in all kinds of terrain including a few miles of moderately technical singletrack (this is a fully rigid bike after all) with some short uphill sections up to 8% or so and it handled it like a dream. I forgot I was riding a DD,
The bike just seems to get faster and more efficient above 15mph. It was easily pulling away from my riding buddy on a GMAC equipped Juiced CCX above 15mph...until he decimated me in the corners.
Before the torque sensor, I would typically ride at 300W, going up to 750W for the more demanding hills. The whole ride today was at assist level 2x human power. Average human power for this ride was only 138 watts which is pretty low for me....usually
The spoke noise (Shown in previous video) was starting to drive me crazy. I spent alot of time destressing the spokes as shown in that video and some spokes never got better. I finally put drop of oil around each nipple and the noise is completely gone now. I did lubricate each nipple hole on the rim with a q-tip dipped in oil when building as I have always done. Perhaps the massive reinforced eyelets (shown in post #131) just need more lube.
Back to a completely silent DD motor now
Last edited:
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