A BBSHD Killer? Here comes the CYC Photon

As mentioned in Chili Verde I scored the NFT to the Brooklyn bridge today.
 
EVEN FATTER THAN THE BOZO BUT CAN RIDE said:
So today I did a little around the block experiment under throttle. I have a short loop, maybe 1/3 of a mile with a 80 feet of elevation over the course of the loop. First lap, motor cold, I did an full throttle loop at speed. The bike completed the loop and I was at full speed. I was in race mode 3 for all these tests. Measured 118 F on the motor at the end. Ambient temps were low 60's. Output was hovering around 1200 watts, but I had the setting for number of magnets at 6 (I have one) so I was reading around 4 mph at full speed. Second loop, I fixed that and set speed limits to max on both race and street modes and the motor dies on my at about 1/4th of the loop. No overheating as temps were about the same. Came back to start, and went a third time with no changes, made it 7/8ths of the way but I kept it under 28 mph so I wouldn't hit the ceiling. Died and I pedaled the last 8th.

Sounds to me not that I am seeing overheating in this scenario, but that I have some kind of software issue that kills the motor when it hits a weird state. Anyone else have any issues like this? Any ideas from more knowledgeable folks are welcome.

Lastly, I emailed [email protected] a few times over the past weekend, but no replies. Are they typically poor regarding support?
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Do you have a low voltage cut-off set? With the Photon, that will take effect during a stress dip into low voltage.
 
cresny said:
Do you have a low voltage cut-off set? With the Photon, that will take effect during a stress dip into low voltage.
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Thinking along those lines, hitting LVC on the battery side would disable the battery until it is plugged into a charger again. It wouldn't even be a motor issue. Something else to check.
 
PedalUma said:
I am developing a far greater appreciation for imperfection. If you wait until conditions are perfect before moving ahead, you will never get anywhere. The same goes for the motor manufactures.
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I totally agree and that's why you're the perfect candidate to try this motor first 🙃
 
It looks like I got assembly grease on the lens.
Left to right: Motor, controller, main gear assembly, torque sensor part A, torque sensor shaft assembly, nylon gear, motor housing, axle shaft, small parts. Oh, the little white doughnut ring is Teflon, the torque sensor rides on it.
1681334245983.jpeg
 
I'm at 110 mi on the photon now, the only issues I'm having are gearing related, chain jumping off at high high torque. I've made all the adjustments I can, but the only thing that's going to fix it is gearing up in the front.

I ordered it with the 38 (42 was not available), as I didn't want the 50 so I could maintain high cadence climbing. But 38 is not enough, so I emailed CYC, they said they will have chain rings on the website soon. In the meantime they sent me a direct invoice for a 42 tooth sprocket and are shipping it out.

So again on the customer service front CYC is absolutely killing it. They are quick to respond and quick with solutions.
 
My personal limit is 100Nm. Anything above that gets me into drive train and hub problems. Cassettes start to add up. Many experienced riders with higher power motors detune them.
 
Yeah I can get the torque values and engagement values to where it is rideable in those gears, but I can't use them for the acceleration that I want. We'll see what the 42 does, when I got this I was interested in the micro shift Advent x, but I already had it in my budget to replace it if I didn't like it. If I go that route I'll probably get an eight or nine speed ebike specific cassette.
 
The nine speed cassettes can give a strong chain and wide range for a moderate replacement cost. Here is a nine that is 11-42 for $24. If you are going to be replacing them every quarter this kind of thing is better than $240 cassettes. So what if it weighs a little more.
 
UpCollinUP said:
I was interested in the micro shift Advent x, but I already had it in my budget to replace it if I didn't like it. If I go that route I'll probably get an eight or nine speed ebike specific cassette.
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I just replaced my Box 2 XW Prime 9 that has a 12-50T cluster with an Advent X using the steel 11-48T cluster. I'm absolutely loving it. the only down side is the shifter is not single-shift, so I have to take care to shift just one gear, which hasn't been a problem.

  • I'm using it on a cargo bike in extreme hills. Low speed but very high torque with routine total system weight in excess of 400 lbs.
  • The Advent X cluster is made up of a single pinned-together cluster where the cogs are 1-piece. No spider, and the cogs are pinned together in many places AND have support bolsters in between them that bode very well for strength under load.
  • I really like the short lever throw of the Advent X shifter. The very long throw of the Box One single shifter - that required the full range of motion oftentimes - was something I really disliked about my first setup. I've used this combo of a Box 2 XW and a Box 1 shifter before but easy shifting on this bike is very important. I wanted a short throw like my SRAM 11s and got it.
  • The Advent X parts are cheap! I got derailleur and shifter from Cali Ebike on a clearance sale. The steel cluster from Amazon. It cost a small fraction of the Box.
  • It works fine with the cheap but effective SRAM 10s EX1 ebike chain. But you can also use an 11s chain as 11s is a little narrower on the outside and same dimensions on the inside. And 11s chains tend to be just as robust if not even a little more so. I read an Advent X review where the builder wanted a more silent drivetrain and the narrower 11s did the trick. But my SRAM chain is working perfectly so I'll wear it out first before I switch to one of the Connex chains I scored on a 75%-off sale.
 
All the reasons you listed for why you like it, are exactly why I decided to go with it. It's built strong, and replacement parts are cheap comparatively so anyway.

I really do think the 42 tooth cog will solve my problem, because I would like to keep the high speed and climbing capabilities that the Advent x gives me. This is the fun part of being an early adopter, at least for me anyway.

I like the narrow chain idea too, I'll definitely try one of those.
 
PedalUma said:
The nine speed cassettes can give a strong chain and wide range for a moderate replacement cost. Here is a nine that is 11-42 for $24. If you are going to be replacing them every quarter this kind of thing is better than $240 cassettes. So what if it weighs a little more.
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Weight is not a factor for me, the relative weight of a cassette will not matter compared to batteries and motor and other electronics I'm strapping on this thing. Strength is the thing, even without the motor I put a strain on bike drive trains, adding the photon is going to mean some fast wear.

My assumption going into this is that I need to find the most cost-effective setup for the performance I want ,so I can replace it a few times a year without heartbreak. I'm hoping the Advent x will last longer than the lighter weight stuff but we'll see.
 
I have a big guy friend with a couple of powerful bikes. When I cut and prep a chain for him, I will do two at the same time. You have the supplies and tools out, so why not? That way he always has at least one spare chain with a quick link on each bike. We also make sure he has spare cassettes. Once he lost a quick link and dropped a chain while on this steep hill where there is no cell reception. He had to walk to a farmhouse and ride back in a tow truck.
1681420639557.png
 
PedalUma said:
I have a big guy friend with a couple of powerful bikes. When I cut and prep a chain for him, I will do two at the same time. You have the supplies and tools out, so why not? That way he always has at least one spare chain with a quick link on each bike. We also make sure he has spare cassettes. Once he lost a quick link and dropped a chain while on this steep hill where there is no cell reception. He had to walk to a farmhouse and ride back in a tow truck.
View attachment 151639
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I'm coming from a dirt bike background, long distance exploration and racing, along with hare scramble racing and being my son's race mechanic for 10 years. When I would jump on my dirt bike I knew exactly what spares to have and how to carry them.

I'm finding it very fun learning all that stuff over again while having a very different relationship with weight. I did have quick links on my spares list, but at the rate I'm going to go through cassettes, having an extra chain or two on hand will probably be the most efficient way to manage those and give me spares. Thanks for the idea!
 
UpCollinUP said:
Thanks
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Cool. It is mostly the internally expanding chain parts, pins, guides, rollers, that wares cassettes and rings. So, changing chains regularly with advanced maintenance extends everything else. Dirt is like sandpaper grit. With new chains I clean them of all shipping gunk and black manufacturing grit, then soak in some nano-wax that does not attract or hold grit.
 
Perhaps its time for a "torque convertor" with all these ludricoius powered motors abounding, when I look at a chain drive system all I can think is WTF, we have had this system for 150 years.The newer edrives should prove rather intersting as the motor would actually take the place of the cogs( after the construction industry tried torque convertors and hydrostatic drive systems they never looked back)
Engine tech has sort of advanced when "Mack' started the 'high torque rise diesel' in response to those gutless diesels with "Roadrangers" the cowboys and teenagers loved to row, miss a gear on these newer engines and see where you start over. Now it seems even the venerable gearbox and diesel will be replaced with an electric motor without even a reduction ofttimes, its simply better( too bad for "cassette envy) of course its my opinion and the way I would go YMMV :rolleyes:
 
UpCollinUP said:
I'm finding it very fun learning all that stuff over again while having a very different relationship with weight. I did have quick links on my spares list, but at the rate I'm going to go through cassettes, having an extra chain or two on hand will probably be the most efficient way to manage those and give me spares. Thanks for the idea!
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It sounds like you have your priorities exactly right. Experienced cyclists have to leave behind some of what they've learned to successfully make the transition to a DIY ebike world.

Build it right and ride it right and you can experience no added wear on the drivetrain than you would get with an analog bike. I am at 3000 miles and counting on my SRAM-drivetrain'd 11s Bullitt ( Sunrace CSMS7 steel cluster) that is my Fresno hauler and commuter. Still everything is original. My Surly Big Fat Dummy still has everything original as well with a BBSHD, similar SRAM 11s drivetrain, CSMS7 and - drumroll - a 215-link KMCe11 chain.

I took a look at my driveline on my green Bullitt today - the 3000-and-counting one - after my ride into work. I recently up'd my cadence about an added 20 rpms and so I'm using different gears than I used to. Chainline is still perfectly straight and 4 cogs in from the bottom (used to be three up). I achieved that with a 52T Lekkie front chainring which is ordinarily way too big, but optimizing cadence and chainline while factoring in the terrain (all flat) required a re-think of how to gear the bike.

Cyclists often think they know wtf they are doing already and end up hamstringing themselves. Don't do that :)

p.s. I always carry a spare chain, chain breaker, and a small card with two reusable quick links still in factory pkging.
 
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