My DIY builds: GMAC, BBSHD, 9C RH212, CYC Photon, ToSeven DM01, Grin All Axle

[gromike]

Yeah, I really like my torque sensing DD hub motor bike. It has no more noise than non-motorized bicycle. It will do 28 mph on throttle alone, though I like to pedal and shift through the gears. Pedaling and it's a super quiet bike. The downside is at 62 pounds it's 10 pound heavier than my mid-drive.

 

[linklemming]

RH212 update

Got the new V5 torquearm today and installation was easy peasy.

The old torquearm just wasnt the best on this bike (hoseclamps were not elegant for the dropouts so I carried a spare set and I needed to carry two 11 mm wrenches to get the torquearm off).

The new torquearm needs an allen wrench and 8mm wrench just like the GMAC.

Congrats to grin for a well designed torquearm

 

[AHicks]

RH212 update

Got the new V5 torquearm today and installation was easy peasy.

The old torquearm just wasnt the best on this bike (hoseclamps were not elegant for the dropouts so I carried a spare set and I needed to carry two 11 mm wrenches to get the torquearm off).

The new torquearm needs an allen wrench and 8mm wrench just like the GMAC.

Congrats to grin for a well designed torquearm

I refused to use those clamps. Nicest workmanship available by any of us is turned to crap with their use IMHO. I've found that "link" used between the torque arm and the bike frame can be easily/neatly made from scrap alum. laying around the shop. Just a matter of cutting it to length and drilling a couple of holes. Results look just like your second picture.....

 

[linklemming]

RH212 Update
I decided to abandon the RH212 in early June. It was a great and powerful motor which never overheated despite all the abuse I threw at it. A very annoying thing I found with it was recurring spoke nipple noise (slight popping). Not sure if it was due to the radial lacing or the beefy double eyelet design of the Halo SAS rim or a combination of the two. I have used this rim in a typical 3 cross pattern with a standard MTB rear hub and never encountered this issue. I know I lubed the nipple seat on the rim when I built the wheel. I could get the noise to subside by putting a drop of oil around each nipple but the noise would eventually come back and the oil would just attract dirt which could be felt between the nipple and the rim. I was going to build the wheel on a VelocityUSA Blunt35 rim but decided to count my losses as I never intended to keep the RH212 in the long run.

Phaserunner fiasco
While helping a neighbor with a GMAC equipped Juiced CCX (my old bike) with failed frankenrunner controller, we accidently hot-plugged in my phaserunner(1 of 2) to a battery that was turned on (in the fog of diagnosis...it happens). Following a scary POP....That phaserunner never worked again. The newer CCX battery lacks a convenient to reach on/off switch and it bit us.

Using, another phaserunner(2 of 2) to restore my ebike, I hotplugged in a phaserunner on accident again. This time although the em3ev battery was initially off. It magically turned on the first time we plugged in the phaserunner which we didnt notice, the second time we hot plugged it, it took out the speed function of the phaserunner and the CA3.

Bought another phaserunner and this one never worked right (never hotplugged). It would return current sensor calibration error codes and would stutter on initial startup from a stop. Grin has replaced this one.

CYC Photon
While the BBSHD is a beast of the motor, the PAS just isnt the most fun to ride. I just ordered a CYC Photon with 42t chainring from electrify bike in Utah which had them in stock

More updates to follow

 

[linklemming]

The CYC Photon has arrived, hard to believe how small it actually is.

Pictured here next to a BBSHD

 

[linklemming]

I must say that I am VERY impressed with the quality of the CYC photon. All the hardware is high quality and the motor itself is a piece of art. Install was super obvious and I only needed to refer to the user manual for a quck installation reference.

It is replacing a BBSHD on a Surly Ogre for now. Perfect chainline without any drive side spacers.

Not sure how I will shuffle around my DIY ebikes (this might end up on a surly bridge club eventually)

 

[linklemming]

This was a pretty easy install, I actually spent more time trying to make the wiring tidy than installing the motor to the frame

Initial power on failed. The cable from the motor to the display/throttle was not fully seated.

Ride impressions tomorrow

 

[Deacon Blues]

This is a DIY kit that I'm very interested in, but it looks like there may be a crank bearing issue.
Check out High Voltage's video:

 

[linklemming]

This is a DIY kit that I'm very interested in, but it looks like there may be a crank bearing issue.
Check out High Voltage's video:

Yes, I pretty much have all of his videos memorized.

The bearing issues he mentions doesnt seem to be an issue with my kit. Crank axle spins fine with no bearing drag/binding.

That being said, that bearing would be super easy to replace assuming its a standard size.

I have had bearing issues with all my DIY bikes (GMAC, TSDZ2 and BBSHD)

 

[tomjasz]

Yes, I pretty much have all of his videos memorized.

The bearing issues he mentions doesnt seem to be an issue with my kit. Crank axle spins fine with no bearing drag/binding.

That being said, that bearing would be super easy to replace assuming its a standard size.

I have had bearing issues with all my DIY bikes (GMAC, TSDZ2 and BBSHD)

If it's not a proprietary bearing I'd call it the cost of DIY. Meh...
Any noise about the Toseven and Bafang moving their kit to torque sensing?

 

[linklemming]

If it's not a proprietary bearing I'd call it the cost of DIY. Meh...
Any noise about the Toseven and Bafang moving their kit to torque sensing?

Replacing bearings for me is really a no brainer, especially if you have something like this
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09GKG2F88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On the GMAC, the motor froze up (not totally but would overheat at lower power levels like 100w) due to seized bearing after around 4k miles. Probably my fault due to riding in a deep puddle. Grin replaced for free except for shipping to them. I have several replacement bearings and the tools to replace

All my erider torque sensing BB bearings have gone bad (3 copies), I talked about replacements a few posts back, replacements have lasted since so I guess the stock bearings are just not that good. The bearing seat shown in the video posted above looks exactly like the ones on the erider.

The TSDZ2 developed a huge amout of radial bearing play after about 1k miles. I could have fixed but it now is in a landfill. Havnt missed it at all.

My original BBSHD with about 2k miles has some radial bearing slop...nothing like the TSDZ2, more sound than actual play. I will replace one day.

My second BBSHD is going strong at 6k miles, what a reliable beast of a motor.

Word is the torque sensing Bafang is based off the 625 design (CAN bus with proprietary battery)

The Toseven looks VERY promising as they have a higher power version. Once US dealers start selling them, I will try one.

All of this is discussed on the channel which made the video posted above

 

[linklemming]

Pic of completed build.

Bent a pin on the throttle connection(no connection on one pin) so when I powered on the bike and went to assist level 1, the bike shot off across the garage.

So no throttle for now. Not a biggie for this ride

 

[linklemming]

CYC Photon Initial Ride Report and Review
Just got back from a 20 mile shakedown ride with the CYC photon. I did a good mix of some steep MTB trails and more of my typical rolling gravel terrain.

This is using a 42t chainring and 9 speed 11-36 cassette

All stock settings except changed to unrestricted mode (no speed limit) using the android app.

3 assist levels with max power of 300,550 and 800 watts.

Initial impression
This feels exactly like my class 3 Brose equipped iZIP Moda E3 as far as power delivery. Not quite as refined as the Brose in response but so close I consider the point mute. The torque assist quality/resolution is high enough quality to allow me to navigate steep technical MTB sections. A MTB section I rode has grades varying between 15-30% and has good size rocks to avoid. When I do this on my BBSHD(same gearing), I usually just end up throttling up in the lowest gear and holding on. Other eMTB brose based mid-drives bikes with lower gearing(34t chainring, 11-42t cassette) have no issues pedaling up. I couldnt make it up this section at the last 30ft where it is the steepest(I ran out of steam), even with 800w of assist and the motor reached a temp of 89F. I have never tried this on the Moda with the same gearing which would most likely have the same outcome. I need to go to a 11-42 cassette if I want to do this on the Photon although I can just as easily choose a slightly different route but this is the worst case I would use for this setup.

Just riding around in the 4-6% rolling hills was very nice, never saw temps over 61C even on some hills around 10% and 550 watts.

As far as max speed on the flat with little wind, Going past 23 (25 in tucked aero position) got really hard running at 800W but motor temps still only maxed out around 60C.

Power limits can be set higher which I will do eventually.

The SW102 display s$cks. Hardly readable other than the speed in direct sunlight and just like the eggrider, the fonts for everything but speed are just too damn small. I basically have to stop and cup my hand over the display and remove sunglasses to see anything other than speed. Not sure if I will try to upgrade next.

The Android app is awesome and can change alot of the system behavior just like the Specialized Mission Control App on the 2022 turbo levo. Very intuitive GUI.

Average speed was about 2mph less than my higher power GMAC and BBSHD setups for the same ride.

This is not as quiet as I would like. Im super picky about quiet motors. Definately louder than my BBSHD and 2022 turbo levo. Loudest at low speed/high power like most drives. Maybe it needs to break in. Will report more later

Overall initial thoughts
If you would like a high quality DIY setup equivalent to the big 4 mid-drive ebike makers, this would be a good setup.

I am impressed, not sure I will keep it in the long run (would likely replace with their upcoming higher power unit) but think this would satisfy alot of people.

 

[linklemming]

CYC Photon Max Assist Baseline Ride
Decided to do a whole ride at max assist (800W max) on a ride I tend to use as a baseline.

Distance: 17.5 miles
Elevation: 1200ft
Temps: Mid 80s

This is a very good mix of all sorts of terrain and condition including gravel/street/rolling 4-6% hills with a few 8% non-technical sections with the last stretch being 5% with a good headwind.

On the GMAC and BBSHD, a typical ride is about 17.5mph average and a fast ride is 19-20mph average.

With the CYC photon art max assist and riding as fast as my fitness would allow, I averaged 17.7mph which is very respectable for 800W.

Motor temps were usually around 55C with a high of 70C.

I am very impressed with this performance, especially the temps

I will be increasing max assist to 1000W for the next baseline ride.

 

[linklemming]

CYC Photon Race Mode Ride

Temps: 90F

This ride is basically the same route described two posts above (#293) with the exception of not doing the super steep section I had to walk up before.

The Photon was setup unrestricted in Race Mode with 3 assist levels (Low 500W, 50% torque, Mid 1000W, 75% torque, High 1500W, 100% torque) and no speed limit

Started out in highest assist level 3 riding to a trailhead and then started a 4-8% climb for a mile as fast as my fitness would allow. Temps seemed to settle in the mid 80s.

Got to an alternate to the super steep section that was only 15% max and climbed it no problems in assist level 2 with temps in the mid 80s.

Most of the rest of the ride was very pleasurable with me just loving the quality of the torque sensing and how light the photon is which is so much lighter than the BBSHD or GMAC. Temps were mid 50s to 60.

The last few miles of the ride was a high speed road section with a slight uphill (maybe 2%) with probably a 5mph headwind. Using assist level 3, I easily got up to around 30mph for a short stint and then felt the power drop off as the temps reached 90C and it was hard to maintain much over 26mph (photon cuts power to about 800watts when temps get above 90C).

Dont take this overheating as a bad sign, its just physics. This small lightweight motor isnt designed for substained high outputs. If you want substained 28mph+ speeds, get a 1500W BBSHD or GMAC

I like the stock settings for street and race mode, dont think I need to change anything at this point. I will most likely always keep it in unrestricted race mode (assist level 2 90% of time)

The display brightness can be toggled by a long press on the up assist button on the controller to help see in daylight. It defaults to the dimmest setting.

Note that the photon has the ability to start out on just torque to the pedals without cadence (which can be turned on/off). Scary the first time it happened but very nice once I got used to it.

The photon seems to have a shutter starting up from a stop when at max assist. It doesnt last that long.

See attachment for the different modes

 

[Borborygmi]

What size calipers do you have on your bike? They look like 160's but I wasn't sure if you had any challenges with having it clear the GMAC hub. Any plans on upgrading the rotors or are you happy with the performance?

Thanks!

 

[linklemming]

What size calipers do you have on your bike? They look like 160's but I wasn't sure if you had any challenges with having it clear the GMAC hub. Any plans on upgrading the rotors or are you happy with the performance?

Thanks!

Im using 180 Quad Piston Front, 160 Dual Piston Rear, no issues with clearance on the GMAC. All brakes are Shimano Deore with Metallic Pads.

Im limited to 160 in the rear due to the surly Ogre Rear dropout design. I believe there is a way to move the rear wheel rearward in the horizontal dropouts using surly monkeynuts and use a larger rotor with adapter

That being said, I feel the performance is more than adequate

 

[linklemming]

GMAC update
The GMAC system has been wonderful all these years (started this thread) but I am moving on to mid-drives exclusively.

Many local MTB trails have recently been opened to ebikes, while doable on the GMAC are much better suited to a mid-drive so my focus favors mid-drives

The CYC Photon torque sensing is so good/intuitive, the GMAC with torque sensing(while good) just doesnt compare although it has more overall power. When riding the CYC photon, I just dont seem to care about the additional power of the GMAC. If I want to ride with ALOT of power, my BBSHD mid drive is the ticket.

Current DIY setups
52V Surly Ogre with BBSHD
52V Surly Ogre with CYC Photon

Potential new CYC Photon build
I have my Surly Bridge Club on Facebook Marketplace, and someone wants to trade for a Karate Monkey (which I have always wanted). It would make an awesome CYC photon build although limited to a 34t chainring. Lets see what happens

New Luna X2 with ludicrous M600 motor
I have been thinning the bike herd and now have room for a new bike. Luna X2 has been ordered. Not really DIY but this is as good of a place as any to mention it.

 

[Borborygmi]

GMAC update
The GMAC system has been wonderful all these years (started this thread) but I am moving on to mid-drives exclusively.

Many local MTB trails have recently been opened to ebikes, while doable on the GMAC are much better suited to a mid-drive so my focus favors mid-drives

The CYC Photon torque sensing is so good/intuitive, the GMAC with torque sensing(while good) just doesnt compare although it has more overall power. When riding the CYC photon, I just dont seem to care about the additional power of the GMAC. If I want to ride with ALOT of power, my BBSHD mid drive is the ticket.

Current DIY setups
52V Surly Ogre with BBSHD
52V Surly Ogre with CYC Photon

Potential new CYC Photon build
I have my Surly Bridge Club on Facebook Marketplace, and someone wants to trade for a Karate Monkey (which I have always wanted). It would make an awesome CYC photon build although limited to a 34t chainring. Lets see what happens

New Luna X2 with ludicrous M600 motor
I have been thinning the bike herd and now have room for a new bike. Luna X2 has been ordered. Not really DIY but this is as good of a place as any to mention it.

Thanks for taking the time to document your builds, and for answering questions.

I'm looking to build a commuter / fun ride around town bike. There are quite a few up and down hills in my area. With the experience that you've gained with trying all of these different builds, would you think that the GMAC is well suited to this task, or would you have another recommendation to make?

I'd probably be looking to use an older 29 inch hardtail frame that I currently use as my daily commuter, if that helps. Thanks again!

 

[linklemming]

Without knowing all the details of your hills, your weight and fitness, its hard to say for sure.

My GMAC rides are.were typically 20-30 miles with elevation gain of 1000 to 1500ft. Alot of 4-6% rolling hills with some 8-10% sections and lots of wind. Im around 240#. The GMAC handles it fine unless I am really pushing it. I can do the 8-10% sections without overheating as long as I dont use too much power (300W at 10%, 500W at 8%). The 6% sections seemed to be limited to about 800W without overheating and anything less than 4% and not much wind could be around 1200W.

With 10 amps of field weakening on the GMAC I could hit 36mph on the flat and 42mph on a very slight downhill.

If I was setting up a commuter, it would be either the geared GMAC or the Direct Drive(DD) 9C RH212 with statorade. If your really interested in the most power, the DD is clearly the winner especially above 20mph. I did rides with a neighbor using a GMAC(on a juiced CCX) and the DD was clearly superior/faster above 20mph. I never saw more than about 75C on the DD despite a complete ride at full throttle (for science). DD is also simpler with the only wear items being bearings.

My neighbor with his GMAC Juiced CCX absolutely loves it although like me, he doesnt commute but rides everyday to get out of the house since he works from home. He did around 9k last year on his GMAC bike. At 170#, he has never had any overheating issues doing the same rides I do.