My 1000w motor journey and fear mongering by users of the forum!

[AHicks]

@MrCaspan, it's a little off topic, but I do have a question if you don't mind? Any trouble procuring your bike? Did you buy it stateside and carry it across, or did you just order it through conventional channels and have it sent to your home?

 

[EMGX]

So I spent a lot of time looking for a full suspension ebike that I can commute 14km to work and then back on a single charge. I finally found the Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra FS Pro 2 So I asked the community what they thought. I was new to a mid-drive motor. I know that Ontario only allows 500w for street legal e-bikes. I understand why this rule has to exist but I felt 500w was a little under powered for hills and what happens if I'm off rode and want to open it up? It's like making a rule that says engines in cars can only be 100hp which makes no sense, just make a speed limit and ticket those that go over it. So that was my first hurdle, people telling me I'm only allowed to buy 500w in Ontario, I get it people, The Ontario Highway traffic act says you cannot legally ride these on the road but it does not need to be stated like I'm a criminal. No cop is going to look at my bike and even have a clue how many watts it is. You can get fake wattage sticker, fake class stickers ETC. No police office is going to care. What they are going to do is see someone driving their bike, with a helmet commuting to work and not pay attention. If they see me driving at 55km/h weaving in and out of traffic, not stopping at stop signs, I am going to assume they are going to stop me because I'm being a bad driver and they are going to investigate the bike and find out its 1000w. Laws don't exist so that its black and white period! For instance, rolling a stop sign at 2am and you can 100% see traffic. This is not criminal or bad and its not why laws were created! They were created so when someone rolls a stop sign at 8am and almost hits 5 kids crossing the street on the way to school that there is a rule so you can prosecute/ticket them. You have to use your brain and be a good citizen! We almost all go 10 over the speed limit every day in Ontario, why? its against the law!! We all still do it. If we get into an accident then we have to take that risk into account and possibly be blamed because we were going 10 over. So just relax people with the soapbox stuff and telling people they cannot use a 1000w in Ontario because you can you just might get a ticket, that's it!! Stop fear mongering people!


Second were the people that said 1000w was too much power and it will just destroy the bike. We get that you think 1000w is too much and will throw your chain in the bush at the first wrong move. Yes 160nm of torque is a lot if applied wrong, but stop telling people that because you don't like them we should not like them. I have had my bike now for 4 months and I could not be happier with my choice. I was so afraid I made a bad choice because people on this forum fear mongering. I get that you think you are trying to help, but trying to get someone to see your point by making them fear what you fear is not okay. Show them a simple video like this one that explains how it's different. I get some ridders wont want to do this and will just want a hub motor (Like my partners bike, she hates mine) but everyone is different and people like automatic cars, some like manual cars. To be an automatic driver and tell another driver they will hate a manual and its just a horrible system. I get that is your opinion but relax a bit because you are pushing your opinion on others! If someone is asking the difference between a rear and mid drive sure its good to point out the differences!

I would have to say of all the things that were told to me over the posts the only thing that bothers me that NO ONE even mentions is the motor noise! On a trail it is loud as hell, on the street you can barely hear it.

In closing be be careful with your opinions on here, you guys almost talked me out of a bike that I now love with, lets keep discussion to facts and not fears, just let people know the differences but leave the fear out of it.

I hope this help others help others better in their decisions! Sorry Rant over but I felt like my quest for help was a trip down fear lane!

It's the internet, not unique to this forum. I've come across several false and misleading posts on various subjects on EBR, sometimes vigorously promoted by those who present themselves as unimpeachable experts, occasionally on subjects that they have little or absolutely no first hand experience or knowledge of. I'm always amused when arm chair legal experts threaten with legal ramifications in order to intimidate - I've seen this also on other non-bicycle forums. I've learned to take it all with a grain of salt and there is a lot of good, helpful info on this site that I've utilized. In the final analysis you make your own decisions and take responsibility for them.

 

[Solarcabin]

AH statistics. Over 7000 pedestrians were killed in the US last year.
SOOOOOOO walking is 7 times more dangerous than riding any kind of bike.

Each year, unfortunately, pedestrian and bicyclist fatalities comprise about 20 percent of all traffic fatalities with approximately 7,000 pedestrian deaths and 900 bicyclist deaths. Another 76,000 pedestrians and 47,000 bicyclists are injured in roadway crashes annually.

I rarely ride where there are pedestrians but you will see cows and deer in the road a lot here.

Hit one of those and it will mess up your day!

 

[indianajo]

@indianajo You make a fair point but normal bikes climb 15% gradients at 5mph and hold up traffic, its not an excuse to break the law!

You should tremble in fear if I ride by you in my death-o-cycle at 6.75 mph. Joggers can outrun me. Hussein Bolt runs 3 times my average speed.
I could afford a gas scooter but 1. I hate the noise & stink 2. they give no exercise 3. they wear out in 2 years 4. they are 100 times as likely to be stolen in my county as a bicycle 5. they carry 3% of the volume of cargo I can carry on my bike.

 

[Ken M]

No offence but its riders like you that will make the authorities bring in laws to make us license our bikes and have them tested anually, in Europe we are restricted to 15.5mph (25kmph) and I'm happy with that if it means I can go ride my bike without all the restrictions from the authorities! The people with high power bikes on the roads will ruin it for everybody! My bike is 250W and it can climb any hill....

You motor has a 250W "rating" but the drive system most likely peaks much higher. Probably 90% of ebikers think the motor ratings are peak power but that is very rarely the case. Sadly the lawmakers fall into the 90% that do not understand a motor rating vs peak power so they do not under the federal low speed electric bicycle definition in HR727 or the 3-class system (which came from the largest auto parts producer in the world to keep ebikes in the leisure and recreation realms).

 

[pmcdonald]

You motor has a 250W "rating" but the drive system most likely peaks much higher. Probably 90% of ebikers think the motor ratings are peak power but that is very rarely the case. Sadly the lawmakers fall into the 90% that do not understand a motor rating vs peak power so they do not under the federal low speed electric bicycle definition in HR727 or the 3-class system (which came from the largest auto parts producer in the world to keep ebikes in the leisure and recreation realms).

Yes, it's a somewhat murky standard for regulators and consumers alike. Our state law stimulates a legal ebike must have 'a maximum continued rated power of 250 watts.' I read somewhere this was measured over an hour period. My understanding is it can peak much higher, but must average no more than 250W over a given period. Arbitrary indeed. My 250W-rated bike peaks at about 600W, more than enough to drag me up inclines steep enough to tip the bike and rider

To the OP, congrats on the new ride. It sounds like you ride responsibly and understand the liabilities. May you have safe and swift travels. There's only one person you need to justify or defend your purchase to: yourself.

One thought: not sure what speeds you are travelling at but if it's fast consider appropriate safety equipment, such as a full face helmet, protective gloves and even armour.

 

[PDoz]

For perspective, anyone riding anything with more grunt than a specialized SL ( mahle 35 nm motor) is riding something that produces more than 250 whatever. ie ALL OF US

Manufacturers lie . They " rate" these motors at 250 whatevers, then tell us they are putting out 95 NM , Then we blink, pretend to believe it, and somehow that chinese "massive 2000 w" motor we just passed was illegal.

 

[ElevenAD]

For perspective, anyone riding anything with more grunt than a specialized SL ( mahle 35 nm motor) is riding something that produces more than 250 whatever. ie ALL OF US

Manufacturers lie . They " rate" these motors at 250 whatevers, then tell us they are putting out 95 NM , Then we blink, pretend to believe it, and somehow that chinese "massive 2000 w" motor we just passed was illegal.

lmao, you aint passing a "chinese massive 2000watt motor" on any Specialized lol.

 

[PDoz]

lmao, you aint passing a "chinese massive 2000watt motor" on any Specialized lol.

I didn't say it was uphill

 

[chrisrad]

@RabH Please don't take my comment as rude its hard on the internet to not be blunt. I get what you are saying, if the law says 500w we should be following it. But also don't get wrapped up in laws the only exist to give law enforcement a way to deal with a person that's breaking the law. If there was no law and you were driving like an idiot people would say "Well show me the rule that says I cannot do this" so we had to create laws to give the right to an office to say you violated this law and I can charge you. Its like J walking, if you do it across a busy street and cause a big issue you can bet you are going to get a ticket. If you use common sense and there is no traffic then no one is going to care. Does that mean I boke the law.. well I guess I did! Does it mean I am bad and need to be punished, no because common sense tells me I can do it safely, a cop can see that and so can anyone else around me.

We have by-laws for the exact same reason, hell in my city its against the by-law to park on the street overnight in the summer. But if I ask my neighbors if they care and they say no then I'm hurting no one. No by-law officer is checking to make sure I didn't break that rule. Its only there to enforce if someone complains. But there is a rule that says I'm not allowed to park over night... its about being civilized about issues IMO

The only real law is don't be a A-hole

 

[McApple]

A good rationalization that essentially says "I know that what I am doing is against the law, but I dont agree with the law, so I'll disregard it and suffer the consequences if caught."

The problem is, if too many people flaunt the law, and accidents become an issue, there is a good chance that the governmental response will be that all ebikes will have to be licensed and insured.

 

[AHicks]

A good rationalization that essentially says "I know that what I am doing is against the law, but I dont agree with the law, so I'll disregard it and suffer the consequences if caught."

The problem is, if too many people flaunt the law, and accidents become an issue, there is a good chance that the governmental response will be that all ebikes will have to be licensed and insured.

YOUR opinion, based on what data?

Does it appear to you that accidents involving high powered bikes are becoming an issue - other than the ones involving e-bikes being run over by cars?

 

[Solarcabin]

I think it all comes down to maturity and knowing when you can ride fast and when you shouldn't.

I can ride my Ariel X in class 1, class 2, class 3 or unlimited but I have the sense to not ride in town in class 3 or unlimited because of traffic, pedestrians, people pushing strollers and walking dogs, stop signs, kids playing and drivers in cars not paying attention.

On an open road when traffic is light I ride class 3 and get where I need to go which is safer for everyone.

Unlimited is for off road or on approved trails or the occasional back country road when there is no traffic.

I have watched videos of pedal bikers splitting lanes, running lights and stop signs and doing many things I would never do on my ebike and there are over a 1000 deaths a year on bicycles in the US but no one is trying to make them in to criminals.

Use some common sense and maturity and you won't have to worry about the laws or an early grave or permanent disability!

 

[retiredNH]

For perspective, anyone riding anything with more grunt than a specialized SL ( mahle 35 nm motor) is riding something that produces more than 250 whatever. ie ALL OF US

Manufacturers lie . They " rate" these motors at 250 whatevers, then tell us they are putting out 95 NM , Then we blink, pretend to believe it, and somehow that chinese "massive 2000 w" motor we just passed was illegal.

Amen. This reminds me of a controversy from my "youth" decades ago, when we all bought stereo high fidelity systems. Back then, the controversy was power output too. Seems, until regulators cracked down, that some were advertising high powered ("1000 watt output...") systems that were anything but, where the measurement was for peak power that could only be sustained for a fraction of a second.

We seem to be in a wild west environment for ebike power measurement, where who knows what the wattage numbers actually mean in practice, and we readers here are far more informed than state legislators!

One thing I've learned in reading posts on this board is how varied the use cases and riding styles are for ebike owners. While I ride for exercise and use as little power as I can, others ride for speed (maybe even thrills?). I ride in a rural environment where seeing another rider or car is not common. Others ride in cities. I ride for pleasure, and still own a car. Others commute and use a bike to replace a car. Needs vary. How can I judge someone else's?

It is curious, though, how no one seems to have tried to regulate the horse power of cars, or their top speeds. Instead, authorities have regulated driver behavior, through speed limits and more general driving rules ("reckless driving" for example). There are also separate rules depending on GVW, carrying passengers etc. Why they don't take a similar approach with ebikes is beyond me, focusing on rider behavior, not impossible to quantify technical standards like "motor power".

 

[McApple]

Up here, Ontario CA, your bike would have to be licensed and insured to be legally operated on public roads, and would be prohibited on bicycle trails and most multi-use trails.

 

[MrCaspan]

A rather important issue is being ignored here. Addressing the legality and enforcement of power restrictions on ebikes from an issue of "will I get a ticket or not?", ignores what will happen if you are involved in an accident, whether your fault or not.

If someone is hurt in an accident involving an ebike, it is highly likely the bike will be inspected for compliance with the legal limits on speed and power. If the bike is found to be out of compliance, the liability of the bike owner will increase exponentially along with the financial liability for any injury or disability caused by the accident.

I am not casting aspersions here or saying this is a reason to get rid of the bike you like so much. Just be aware of the potential added liability you may be taking on by being out of compliance.

This is a great point and I have already verified with my insurance company that I have full coverage for liability for me and for anything I could hit and it does not matter if I'm doing wheelies down the road and hit someone or being a good driver and hit some one, I am covered. But it is really great point to have people check to makes sure they do have insurance no matter what. I even asked them as I deal with a broker about the non compliant bike and they said just because I don't have a compliant bike does not change fault. It's up to whoever is investigating to prove that because I have a non compliant bike that it caused the accident. It's impossible to prove that. They said even if I was speeding there has to be proof of the speeding not just someone saying I was speeding. Having a non compliant device does not all of a sudden make me at fault in an accident but I could get a ticket for ridding my bike on a road way that is non compliant.

 

[MrCaspan]

E-Bike Laws In Your Province

Whether you’re at home, work, or on holiday this quick guide will tell you everything you need to know to keep your E-Bike safe & legal. Updated: Feb 8, 2024

ebikecanada.com

Put a 500 watt sticker on it and keep it at legal speeds in the city and you will likely never have a problem.

If you get a ticket pay it because you know the laws.

I do not recommend ebikes for kids under 16 and faster ebikes only for adults with training.

Ride smart and ride safe!

Exactly, There is no industry standard even for what a 500w motor is anyways so there is no way to prove it!. Most motors rated for 500w are way above 500w. For example I have an iGo ebike (My partners bike now) that I used to commute to work throttle only as I didn't peddle much and it was at about 700w all the way to work and up to 1200w on hills. Tell me how this is a 500w motor? Just because the manufacturer says it's 500w does not mean they didn't take a 750w and put a 500w sticker on it because 500w could not make it up a hill maybe. Manufacturers want to sell you a peppy bike that can make it up hills and as long as there is a sticker that says 500w then its street legal? What's the difference If I do the same? If I was making a bike and my competitor was selling 700w motors labeled as 500w then my bike is going to seem slow so I am going to do the same thing or ever better make my motor more watts and still say its 500w. But what does 500w mean? Does it mean that you can run it at 500w all day and never burn it out? That you can peak up to 1000w but only if on hills? It's a moot argumentative value that no one has 100% defined. Yes a watt is a watt but when it comes to motors is it a watt under load is it a watt with no load is it somewhere in-between? What about overweight people they get less watts because they are heavy, what about skinny people they get more watts. it means absolutely nothing unless they can standardize what 500w means! This is why wattage means absolutely nothing IMO because it is what it is. People on here trying to tell me they are compliant because a bike manufacturer put a 250w sticker on their bike or a 500w. For all you know you're not compliant also you just don't know it. If I have a speed limit set on my bike to 32km/h same as you having a larger motor means absolutely nothing. It's like saying a Porsche driving down the road (responsibly) is more responsible/liable or a dick for an accident because their engine is 10x more powerful. Give me the ticket because the highway traffic act says it's not compliant ill pay my ticket and keep driving my bike. I am also trying to have my municipality make real rules for e-bikes and I encourage you do the same. Unless people tell the people that are making the rules they are wrong nothing ill change and uneducated people on ebikes will keep making the rules.

 

[MrCaspan]

@MrCaspan I know what you are saying but as I said, not everybody rides responsibly and as @Alaskan said, there a ramifications when things go wrong!

What ramifications???? I think you are being a bit paranoid. The only thing I will get is a ticket! if I get into an accident then they have to prove because its 1000w it somehow caused the accident! There is no ramifications!

 

[MrCaspan]

Great choice of words with the title. Also congratulations on your illegal eBike.

It's not illegal it just violate a rule in the Highway Traffic Act, a tuckable offence if driven on Ontario roads. I can ride private all I want! It's always good to know your rights and know the law and how it applies to you

 

[Solarcabin]

The only ebikes that really concern me are the DIY kits I see some people build on pedal bikes not designed for that high torque and speed.

Consumer Ebikes are generally designed for the stresses of higher torque and have stronger frame welding and bracing, torque arms, stronger chains and gear cassettes and hydraulic disk brakes.

I am not against custom builds but if you are going to put a high torque motor on a pedal bike or even an ebike not designed for that you better modify that bike to handle that torque stress and speed or it is an accident waiting to happen IMO.