Mid-drives simply utilize gearing to spin faster at slower speeds which enables them to be more efficient. The gear ratios enable them to be better slow speed climbers than gear less hub motors but but some geared hub motors are good climbers (albeit with the added complexity of internal gears). You simply can't ignore that when running most mid drives at high speeds they become effectively less efficient because the drive train gearing impact - when running say on a 44T front and an 11T rear only 25% of the mid drives crack torque is reaching the rear wheel. It seems everyone mentions the slow speed advantages of mid-drives with the drive train sprocket ratios but no one considers how this is reversed at higher speeds.
As the bike is ridden faster a gearless hub drive becomes more efficient and 100% of the motor torque is delivered to the rear axle. This really should be considered if you are buying a bike to do commuting on and know that you may spend a significant % of the riding time above say 20mph. A gearless hub may be the best choice for performance and the life-cycle costs will be much less than a mid-drive that will certainly put more wear and tear on your drive train.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Weight in regards to bicycles is always a part of the efficiency equation.
At this time mid drives are already as light (4kg ish) and some lighter as the lightest hub options (4kg geared and 4 kg for lightest DD). Not much leeway for hubs to lose weight as the mid drive could potentially pare off.
Reducing battery weight, a typical 36v 10ah is about 4kg also, is tough and why some companies like Focus are specing lower ah batteries that have the ability to be doubled when needed. But you are just adding the extra 3.6kg or so doing that back to the bike.
The choice to use mid or hub motors should remain in effect though for a long time. As the market matures both will seek their own level.
At this time mid drives are already as light (4kg ish) and some lighter as the lightest hub options (4kg geared and 4 kg for lightest DD). Not much leeway for hubs to lose weight as the mid drive could potentially pare off.
Reducing battery weight, a typical 36v 10ah is about 4kg also, is tough and why some companies like Focus are specing lower ah batteries that have the ability to be doubled when needed. But you are just adding the extra 3.6kg or so doing that back to the bike.
The choice to use mid or hub motors should remain in effect though for a long time. As the market matures both will seek their own level.
JRA
Well-Known Member
So all torque sensing PAS?
charlesbrenthirak
Member
Fascinating: this thread develops a really important criteria to bike/motor choice that i never contemplated. super knowledge thank you!
Any one have experience with Go Swiss ? (rear hub drive)
https://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/
https://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/advantages-of-a-rear-hub-motor/
https://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/
https://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/advantages-of-a-rear-hub-motor/
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Manu
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The question ... does the hub adapt to all the profiles of electric cycling?NO.
There are no hub engines in emtb.
The only one that serves all cycling profiles is the mid-drive.
The only one with 250w or 350w that makes hillclimp of up to 40 degrees is mid-drive,
Meets all hillclimp / downhill / flat terrain profiles.
The mid-drive keeps the center of gravity in the center
The mid-drive has more efficiency per kilometer, spending less battery and increasing the range of autonomy.
¿Can a 250w / 350w hub make hillclimp 40 degrees?
Need power of 750w hub or more.
¿Does the motorcycle have a engine on the wheel or on the frame?Motorcycle=engine frame.
A hub needs a structurally reinforced wheel , nor does it allow such essential rear fox and and does not allow jumps from rock to rock.
The structure and bearings of the hub wheel would break in the EMTB sessions.
The hub with great powers needs structurally reinforced wheel +++= wheel 27,5+ /big.
you in a 700x25 wheel road ebike you can put up to 750 w mid-drive in the frame but with 750w hub in the rear wheel you need structural reinforcement .......
the hub profile is of city, road and compact earth.Commuter to work ,Router,Travel.The mid-drive
has that same and the extreme versions of emtb and road 700x 25 wheel.
If you have to repair a puncture in the rear wheel, the mid-drive is faster than the hub and you need less tools or even without tools with fast closing clip, with the hub you need to disconnect the cable to the hub.
There are no hub engines in emtb.
The only one that serves all cycling profiles is the mid-drive.
The only one with 250w or 350w that makes hillclimp of up to 40 degrees is mid-drive,
Meets all hillclimp / downhill / flat terrain profiles.
The mid-drive keeps the center of gravity in the center
The mid-drive has more efficiency per kilometer, spending less battery and increasing the range of autonomy.
¿Can a 250w / 350w hub make hillclimp 40 degrees?
Need power of 750w hub or more.
¿Does the motorcycle have a engine on the wheel or on the frame?Motorcycle=engine frame.
A hub needs a structurally reinforced wheel , nor does it allow such essential rear fox and and does not allow jumps from rock to rock.
The structure and bearings of the hub wheel would break in the EMTB sessions.
The hub with great powers needs structurally reinforced wheel +++= wheel 27,5+ /big.
you in a 700x25 wheel road ebike you can put up to 750 w mid-drive in the frame but with 750w hub in the rear wheel you need structural reinforcement .......
the hub profile is of city, road and compact earth.Commuter to work ,Router,Travel.The mid-drive
has that same and the extreme versions of emtb and road 700x 25 wheel.
If you have to repair a puncture in the rear wheel, the mid-drive is faster than the hub and you need less tools or even without tools with fast closing clip, with the hub you need to disconnect the cable to the hub.
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Must be the difference in controller and how it's programmed. Torque sensors are not all created equal, too.
Despite my arguing with Ravi, I agree with what he said - for vast majority of people a 500W hub with good sensing should satisfy their needs.
They don't need mid-drive.
Some of them do, most of them don't.
Though this doesn't answer the initial Mike's question - why so many people are buying mid-rives and are willing to pay more for it. I think it's a tricky, unfair question
... Who knows "why"... They are buying - bring 'em more...Thinking again about the example with Range Rovers. The "looks". Mid-drive is easier to conceal behind the chainring and crankset, it looks nicer, sportier than a big hub in the rear. Red cars are faster, you know...
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J.R.
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- Piedmont Highlands
A 40 degree hill is 84% grade. How long of an 84% grade hill can you climb with a 250 to 350 watt mid-drive? Distance start to finish?
Mr. Coffee
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- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Canton Avenue, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, is said to include a grade of 35%-37%. Baldwin Street in Dunedin, New Zealand also has a 35% grade and claims to be the steepest in the world.
J.R.
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I've posted in the events about the dirty dozen bike race held there every year on Thanksgiving weekend. 13 (bakers dozen) crazy hills. I think sometimes degree gets posted when grade is meant. I guess if off road it could be a crazy steep 15 yard long hill. I'm in PA, but have never ridden Canton Ave, not even downhill
Manu
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No video shows that the hub serves to emtb .....40 º inclinometer no is 87º is 40º .
12,5 milles and 5100 feet climp
put a 250/350 w hub and it gives much less than this in this location ...
when the engineers did not use that, it will be for something.
There simply is no hub in emtb.
I unlock the speed of some of the mid-drives and it gives 28mph
bosch with only 350w 85km/h
"
"the mid-drive is not able to transfer its torque to the wheel ....."jajaja
12,5 milles and 5100 feet climp
put a 250/350 w hub and it gives much less than this in this location ...
when the engineers did not use that, it will be for something.
There simply is no hub in emtb.
I unlock the speed of some of the mid-drives and it gives 28mph
bosch with only 350w 85km/h
"
"the mid-drive is not able to transfer its torque to the wheel ....."jajaja
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JRA
Well-Known Member
And how do you feel about throttles Manu? Seriously I am not sure why you are being so adamant that everyone fall in step for mid drives, plenty of good reasons mentioned in this thread to at least tolerate them from people who have actually ridden them. A lot of us have one (+) of each I know I do!
This is the only hillclimb video I have downloaded to utube:
Taken in South Eastern Oregon in the Alvord Desert region. At the end you can see a flat area down low and that is the Alvord Desert where I started. Nice hot springs there....
9c Direct Drive front hub motor. 52v@20A. The grade is STIL but I estimate an average of around 20%. I wasn't trying to go as fast as I could go, I left that for the Playa below, but spinning an easy gear and using probably 600 or so watts. My Grin AllAxle motor on V2 is just as good at this type of riding and silent to boot.
On the same trip I went to Colorado and climbed from 7500' to 11k 3 times and totaled 150 miles of riding there. Never had an issue with the motor or the bike, Other than a squeaky disc brake I eventually quieted.
Seriously I am not sure why you are being so adamant that everyone fall in step for mid drives, plenty of good reasons mentioned in this thread to at least tolerate them from people who have actually ridden them. A lot of us have one (+) of each I know I do!This is the only hillclimb video I have downloaded to utube:
Taken in South Eastern Oregon in the Alvord Desert region. At the end you can see a flat area down low and that is the Alvord Desert where I started. Nice hot springs there....
9c Direct Drive front hub motor. 52v@20A. The grade is STIL but I estimate an average of around 20%. I wasn't trying to go as fast as I could go, I left that for the Playa below, but spinning an easy gear and using probably 600 or so watts. My Grin AllAxle motor on V2 is just as good at this type of riding and silent to boot.
On the same trip I went to Colorado and climbed from 7500' to 11k 3 times and totaled 150 miles of riding there. Never had an issue with the motor or the bike, Other than a squeaky disc brake I eventually quieted.
Manu
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I only expose one point of view.
52v x 20A = 1040w battery .... more battery more range.
And nobody has argued that the mid-drive adapts according to the legislation of each country to all cycling profiles.
Except that they do not bring accelerator.
Accelerators, I would prohibit with more than 500w them in a bike lane where you can have small children on bicycles.
Especially when you have 750w engines = 1 horsepower at 28 mph + When those 750w can be driven by a 15 year old child with an accelerator and hopefully. The accelerator is not blocked, inside a bike path with children. bike lane with children from 6 to 16 years old with their bicycles ..... The accident can be very easy.
750w motor =motorcycle=spizing mid-drive 850w and top speed 75km/h/ 46 millas
¿Do you put a motorcycle with 25 kilograms to 46 millas top speed in a bike lane?
for me it is already a different class that would be the motorcycle with taxes and insurance.
and of course I could not travel in the bike lane.
1500w hub = 2 horse power........this is one car with 2 horse power.years "80"
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_2CV#/media/File:2CV-20040417-856.jpg
52v x 20A = 1040w battery .... more battery more range.
And nobody has argued that the mid-drive adapts according to the legislation of each country to all cycling profiles.
Except that they do not bring accelerator.
Accelerators, I would prohibit with more than 500w them in a bike lane where you can have small children on bicycles.
Especially when you have 750w engines = 1 horsepower at 28 mph + When those 750w can be driven by a 15 year old child with an accelerator and hopefully. The accelerator is not blocked, inside a bike path with children. bike lane with children from 6 to 16 years old with their bicycles ..... The accident can be very easy.
750w motor =motorcycle=spizing mid-drive 850w and top speed 75km/h/ 46 millas
¿Do you put a motorcycle with 25 kilograms to 46 millas top speed in a bike lane?
for me it is already a different class that would be the motorcycle with taxes and insurance.
and of course I could not travel in the bike lane.
1500w hub = 2 horse power........this is one car with 2 horse power.years "80"
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_2CV#/media/File:2CV-20040417-856.jpg
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JRA
Well-Known Member
¿Do you put a motorcycle with 25 kilograms to 46 millas top speed in a bike lane?
No but I have ridden motorcycles with a higher power to weight ratio than an e bike and didn't do 100 mph in school zones either.
You got the battery math wrong, sorry I was vague and using terminology I am familiar with. Actually I was wrong also as that is V1 in the video and what I should have written is that the bike has a 48v battery running @ 25A (controller) equaling a peak voltage of 1200w although I have never seen it go that high even on full charge. As it stands the legal limit in my state, OR, is 1000w so I don't feel like I am too far off the reservation. But I do tend to travel at a good clip at times on the open road, but not in the city/town/village I happen to be riding in.
My hub bikes are accelerators only, no PAS, but I do have a good range of gearing on my bikes that have up to a 150" gear so pedaling from 0 to 30+ pedaling at any cadence I feel like is no problem. Mainly I ride to make that battery last and maintain an average speed higher than I could do on my own. I don't care what bike you have riding at 28mph as in that video eats watt hours and is realistically only of use in short bursts. I can average 30 mph on my road bikes for 18 miles but it drains the battery as it uses 30wh per mile instead of my normal average of 15 and go twice as far.
The battery on the black road bike, V!, is 48v x 10 = 480wh btw. I can switch the 52v 10ah battery between the silver bike and the mtb. Which is convenient as I only have the one battery! I am trying not to invest any more in batteries until the 21700/20700 cells appear then I will use that battery on all my existing bikes and ones planned.
And this thread needs some example pix, my mid drive and hub bikes
No but I have ridden motorcycles with a higher power to weight ratio than an e bike and didn't do 100 mph in school zones either.
You got the battery math wrong, sorry I was vague and using terminology I am familiar with. Actually I was wrong also as that is V1 in the video and what I should have written is that the bike has a 48v battery running @ 25A (controller) equaling a peak voltage of 1200w although I have never seen it go that high even on full charge. As it stands the legal limit in my state, OR, is 1000w so I don't feel like I am too far off the reservation. But I do tend to travel at a good clip at times on the open road, but not in the city/town/village I happen to be riding in.
My hub bikes are accelerators only, no PAS, but I do have a good range of gearing on my bikes that have up to a 150" gear so pedaling from 0 to 30+ pedaling at any cadence I feel like is no problem. Mainly I ride to make that battery last and maintain an average speed higher than I could do on my own. I don't care what bike you have riding at 28mph as in that video eats watt hours and is realistically only of use in short bursts. I can average 30 mph on my road bikes for 18 miles but it drains the battery as it uses 30wh per mile instead of my normal average of 15 and go twice as far.
The battery on the black road bike, V!, is 48v x 10 = 480wh btw. I can switch the 52v 10ah battery between the silver bike and the mtb. Which is convenient as I only have the one battery! I am trying not to invest any more in batteries until the 21700/20700 cells appear then I will use that battery on all my existing bikes and ones planned.
And this thread needs some example pix, my mid drive and hub bikes
tomjasz
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- Minnesnowta
eZee and MAC drives are amoung the best. Bafang not so much. The previous can run at a range of voltages. 36-60v. I’ve owned all BBSxx models and unless a rider needs seriou hill clmbing a mid drive will always be more maintenance. All DD are not created equal and a bare motor can price out at $100-$500. You get what you pay for DD and GD are generic terms for a wide range of quality manufactured motors. From Yugo to Ferrari in build quality.
Manu
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What I mean is that 1500w = 2 horsepower and in the 80s = car with driver's license and insurance.
750w = 1 horse power = motorcycle in the hands of small children of 15 years old by bicycle lane and without insurance or driving license.
For me, it's crazy ...
New concept ... motorcycle with pedals and accelerator 750w but with driver's license and insurance and out of the bike lane and childrens 16 years old......Ok correct to my.
It's my point of vision that you do not have because you share
750w = 1 horse power = motorcycle in the hands of small children of 15 years old by bicycle lane and without insurance or driving license.
For me, it's crazy ...
New concept ... motorcycle with pedals and accelerator 750w but with driver's license and insurance and out of the bike lane and childrens 16 years old......Ok correct to my.
It's my point of vision that you do not have because you share
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