Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[Barry S]

I don't know what to say. Cyclists have been relying on that site for a long time. People train and set competitions using it. I've used it a few times and found it accurate. I wouldn't have suggested it otherwise.

Worked great for me. I had calculated 5% for the last hill to my house using my Garmin readings and simple math, and the veloroutes site came in at 5.4%. I'm bookmarking this one.

 

[Alex M]

@Mikey- had a hilarious video... man you're an endearing snob How could you cheat on Pedego?

Nah, he is absolved of mid-drive sin... Pedego now have a mid-drive too, in their line-up. I only can't see - what is this thing in the corner - is that (gasp) a scooter?

 

[e-boy]

Electric Vespa
https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/italian-designer-reinvents-classic-vespa-electric-age.html

 

[Tina Marie]

You can use this site to find out the grade of any road.

http://veloroutes.org/hillgradecalculator/

Thank you, J.R.!

 

[Tina Marie]

Tina, what wattage was the hub that couldn't get you uphill even with pedaling, and approximately how steep % incline?

So using the site J.R. provided, this is what came up. I'm not certain if that's correct or not.

 

[Alex M]

Yep, the do exist, Eboy. Local store sells knock-offs for about $500. This one is beautiful, those are ugly. I see quite a lot of them on the streets, more than e-bikes, though not as many as non-powered bikes.

 

[Alex M]

So using the site J.R. provided, this is what came up. I'm not certain if that's correct or not.
View attachment 20943

I think the results are incorrect. Google Earth shows these end-point coordinates several blocks away from the street that it's supposed to be on.

Entering street name without building number isn't going to work, but this app worked poorly anyway, when I tried it in my area.

 

[BobG]

Tina,

Why don't you try the Google Maps method for comparison. Choose your specific route from Sterling St to Vernon St. The side panel will show the elevation gain and distance when the "bike routes" option is chosen. The route up View St says 69 feet in .3 mile= 4.35% Enter your results in this calculator...

http://www.csgnetwork.com/inclinedeclinegradecalc.html

Keep in mind that this will be the average grade from point A to point B. There may be steeper and shallower sections within.

 

[keithd]

Most of these do in fact just give the averages and do not show that killer hill that one may encounter.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

...
But... when I look at this terrain on the photo, going 35 miles to the Mexican food truck and another 35 miles back... Can't help but thinking of moped or ATV... Hey, maybe that food truck could deliver?

ATVs won't work because they are not street legal, and you are not permitted to operate a non-street-legal vehicle on USFS and DNR roads.

Most ATVs don't have very much range either. In the winter snowmachiners ride in that area and a few times a winter some poor dingbat gets lost and quickly runs out of gas (most snowmobiles have around 100-120 miles of range per tank of fuel).

An e-bike will do the job just fine.

 

[richgee]

My discussion removed. I thought this was about drives. My bad.

Rich

 

[Alex M]

Didn't know know that Google Maps can do elevation. It is indeed there when you choose "Bicycle" and click on "Details". Thanks, Bob. Will go now measure that nasty hill next to my home.

 

[Alex M]

I do like it but when I run out of power, the mechanism makes me work a little harder than the Hill Topper when the Hill Topper runs out of battery. Only downside so far.
Adds up at seventy seven years old. I only do about fifty miles a day in good weather.

Rich

55 miles at this age is not a small feat.

This curve ball by Mike - why would anybody want to pay more for mids - has no simple answer. It boils down to terrain, distance and how much you are willing to pay.

Comparisons of "cheap hub motor E-bikes with cadence" - that could turn somebody off, to "much better bikes like BH with torque sensor" - only add to confusion. Cheap hub? Or cheap E-bike? - because it's a cadence and/or not a big brand, or lights are not integrated etc. Hub can be the same in $1,500 and $3,500 bike, and often is.

If there are no steep hills to climb and you are OK with on-off feeling of a hub motor, then you don't need to overpay for BH - or a top brand mid, for that matter. You can of course pay triple for both real and imaginary qualities that you don't need, and many people do pay. Consumer psychology is a mystery. There appears to be more of, er... inexplicable purchases, when disposable income is getting higher - I like the example with Range Rovers. Have many more examples like this one, but don't want to offend the freedom of self-indulgence

 

[Ken M]

I own both. A geared hub drive and Bosch Performance line. No comparison, I much prefer the Haibike/Bosch. 1,600 miles on the geared hub, 1,800 on the one Bosch, 1,700 on a second Haibike. I'm not about max anything on a bicycle. You mention wattage ratings available, but you can get hub drive motors up to 10,000 watts can't you? Same goes for max torque. A lot of my preference for the Haibike with Bosch is that it feels like a totally engineered package. The motor matches the high end components, and makes for such a wonderful riding experience. Under power, it's such a smooth acceleration with quick clicks to shift smoothly up to a higher gear. Feels like what a Formula 1 car must feel like! The geared hub motor Sondors is more like a Jeep. Cheap components, and crude power. I paid $500 for the Sondors, $2,800 for one Haibike and $2,600 for the second one. The Haibikes should feel better at the price difference, and they do. I had to send the hub motor in for repair recently, I haven't put it back together yet. You say you are having trouble identifying why someone would pay more for the mid drive. I ride for pleasure, and I think I have it in spades with the Haibike/Bosch bike. I still smile every time I ride them! By the way Mike, are you having a spring open house? I live in Peoria and would like to come visit. I'd like to give that Ruff bike a spin.

Please you really can't compare a Sonders hub motor to any good hub motor on the market. The motor and controller of the Sonders bike is all about being lowest price.

Ride a Specialized 2016 Turbo S, a Grace Urbanic, or a Strommer ST5 (all 3 are speed pedelecs with very good assist levels to 28mph. Without a doubt if you spend the bulk of you riding time below 20mph then there is no reason to consider a good hub motor eBike but if you want to own a truly commute capable bike I think the better hub drives are the way to go (I would even avoid the geared hub motors as they will need to be rebuilt at around 10,000 miles. A good gearless hubdrive with thermal protection should last the life of the bike without maintenance. Cost of owning a great performance bike should matter to anyone.

At my shop we have a saying...if you want to ride no faster than 20mph why not just walk.

 

[Ken M]

By all accounts, this is true for DD hubs - as long as you keep it dry. Geared hubs - not so much.
But then, 1.5-2K miles is not unheard of, even for a geared hub. Depends on how and where you ride, too.

Bafang hub costs from $200 online and is not terribly difficult to swap with exactly same motor that has just died. Bafang mid-drive costs roughly 2 times more. Bosch... let's not go there ...

After 2K miles the cost of battery replacement will dwarf the "hub worries", if battery will even last that long.

Are you saying that a gearless hub motor will typically fail in 1,500 - 2,000 miles. I know the chief designer at PIM and he has over 20,000 miles on one of their hub motor bikes. I have over 3,000 on mine.

A good quality gearless hub motor has the potential to last the life of the bike. The only moving parts are the bearings which can last a very very long time.

 

[Ken M]

Adding mass anywhere on a wheel is a bad idea because it adversely affects handling and acceleration. A hub motor adds many pounds of mass to a wheel, and it has a negative effect on ride quality.

You can test this out for yourself. Take a regular, non-electric bike, and add mass to one of its hubs. Ankle weights come to mind. Ride it around a bit. Feel how it handles, how it turns, how it accelerates. Now switch the ankle weights to the downtube or the seattube, close to the bottom bracket. Ride it again. I'd be surprised if you don't find that when the mass is on the frame the bike feels more agile.

The adverse effect is even more pronounced if the wheel is suspended, such as with front fork suspension (with hub motor on the front wheel) or with full suspension. Does anyone even make bikes with a hub motor on a suspended wheel?

I owned a Magnum Ui5 with a rear hub motor and I sold it within six months because I did not like its ride quality. It just did not feel agile. I have been riding a full-suspension Haibike with mid-drive motor for nearly two years, and it feels very agile and stable. I haven't had any issues with the motor, the battery, the electronics, or the drivetrain. I did replace the chain after 2,000 miles, which I consider normal maintenance.

That said, I think there should be room in the market for both kinds of motors. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. The key is to choose knowing full well what the tradeoffs are. There may be very good reasons why a hub motor may be a better choice for a given application, such as price or power. But don't ignore the negative effects of adding mass to a wheel, something that is almost never discussed.

The most significant negative impact of adding mass to the wheel is unsprung weight. In other words, the suspension can react much quicker to terrain changes and this is a huge factor if riding a mountain bike but not so much for street riding.

Give this some thought because it's something you never hear talked about. Mid drives benefit for the drive train gear ratio so long as the front to rear tooth count is 1:1 or less. If you are riding at high speeds on say a 44T front and an 11T rear with a hub drive, 75% of the motors torque is lost in the gear ratio. A hub drive may have lower torque delivered at the rear wheel at slower speeds but at speeds faster than 20mph most of the time they are delivering more torque to the rear wheel than a mid drive. Bosch did a pretty smart thing by having a small front chain ring spinning at 2.5 cadence because it minimimized torque lost at higher speeds.

You mentioned "very agile and stable" in the same sentence as attributes. Typically a stable bike is not agile. A stable bike may have much heavier tires to create gyroscopic stability (this can be important if you are riding an eBike at 28-35mph (the stability of the bike become more imporant that the agility of the bike. Agility is a trait best reserved for mountain biking. I think too many people think a great solution can be common for both applications ... not really.

I tend to want a fast urban pedelec for commuting about 15 miles each way. I have Haibikes with a Bosch and a Yamaha mid drive and I can honestly say that my hub drive PIM bike puts them to shame at speeds above 20mph. Most people don't feel comfortable above 20mph (they are bad drivers in cars as well) so I would recommend the mid drives to them all day long as they are very efficient and powerful at these grandpa speeds.

 

[Ken M]

Rich, c'mon man be fair. Comparing a Sondors to a Haibike is a bit like comparing a Yugo to a Toyota. .
Back to the OP ? There really is room for both in the market.
I think what he is asking is, why would "average Joe/Jane" rider that uses an ebike for "riding around town" want a mid-drive?
That is actually a reasonable question. The increased wear and tear on the drivetrain that mid-drives cause, is an unnecessary sacrifice that those type of riders don't really need.
A well built geared hub motor bike with torque sensing, is probably the most reasonable setup for those riders.

People on this site tend to be more ebike enthusiasts. Thus we have more dedicated needs from our ebikes. If you are a regular long distance commuter, a direct drive hub really makes the most sense, or at least a geared hub. If you choose a mid-drive for this purpose, you need to expect regular maintenance/ replacement cost due to drivetrain wear.

Now if you are climbing a lot, especially if its mtb singletrack, then your hub motor can't even get the job done without overheating. Thus mid-drive is your ONLY option.

This doesn't even get into the discussion of weight distribution, handling, overall weight, etc.

Good response. I also ?????? his comparing a Sonders to the Haibikes. I ride both mid drives and gearless hub motor bikes and for commuting (I ride over 20mph most of the 15 miles) and there is no comparison - the 750W hub motor on my PIM blows away the Bosch and the Yamaha high bikes I have. I still like the Haibikes but I would only recommend them to people that are bad car drives that really should not ride a bike faster than 20mph....for them a mid drive is perfect and they are necessary on the enthusiast mountain bikes as you stated (that is where unsprung weight, center of mass, low speed torque, low speed efficiency are primary and those are not the strengths of a hub drive.

 

[Ken M]

People keep talking about how much maintenance mid drives have on broken chains and sprockets etc. Actually the reason why I purchased a mid drive over the hub drive is that the rear wheel is the same as a non-motorized bike and can be easily removed and worked on either at home, at a local bike shop or on the side of the road if necessary. Chains and cassettes can be purchased anywhere and are relatively inexpensive and easy to clean and change. I was also able to purchase a second wheelset for winter riding off Kijiji for next nothing which would be next to impossible on a hub drive. I also did not like the idea of an exposed wire on the way to the rear hub being snagged and then game over. On my mid drive the battery, controller and motor are all in the same general area, sealed and protected with no chance for snagging. Most of the mid drive motors have all the wires internally routed. So on the maintenance side I personally think a mid drive has the hub drive beat as long as the core motor/battery/controller package does not fail. I have the Bosch CX drive, so far it hasn't disappointed and as far as I can tell from the info available the reliability is very good and so is the warranty. It is extremely popular and ubiquitous, spare components are sold everywhere and easy to get a hold of and I don't expect Bosch to go tits up anytime soon. I am an engineer by trade in manufacturing and we use Bosch servos everywhere, and they are very reliable.

As far as pure speed is concerned the Bosch bike is plenty fast and gets me up to the legal e-bike limit of 32km/hr in a matter of meters (if I want to go faster I can ride a 100 Hp motorbike which is fun too). The efficiency is fantastic but more important to me here is the riding experience and natural feel of how the power is applied. It feels like riding a standard bike except with olympic size legs and you really don't even notice the fact that the power is on unless you decide to turn it off (exception being turbo mode at a standstill with very low gearing which does feel a little "unnatural" and excessive in application). In this I think the high end mid drives are pretty great. These companies have put loads of research into perfecting this years and it will continue to improve and as it does firmware updates will be available for these bikes (for example eMTB mode on Bosch bikes which is an absolutely awesome upgrade in terms of riding experience).

So there is my counter points and the basis for my final decision to buy a Bosch mid drive.

As you pointed out, if you like slow speed riding below 32kph mid drives are wonderful. I commute 15 miles each way and try to ride at 25-30mph most of the way. My time matters when I'm commuting so I'm not out for a leisure drive. I have a Bosch and a Yamaha mid drive for my leisure rides and trail riding where the mid drives make sense. My 750W gearless hub drive PIM bike literally distroys the performance of the Haibikes when riding over 20mph (the hub drive does not loose torque thru the drive train at faster speeds like a mid-drive). Think about this as lost efficiency on an mid drive - if riding say at 25mph on a 44T front sprocket and an 11T rear 75% of the mid drive axle torque is essentially lost thru the drive train. Bosch did a pretty smart think by having a smaller faster spinning front sprocket to minimize that torque lost but most people lack the knowledge of mechanics to understand torque, gear ratios, efficiency, etc. They will be marketed by the mid drive makers claiming the mid drives are best even for fast urban bikes. In my experience and what I need from my commuting bike the hub drive is superior to my Haibikes that cost 2X as much.

 

[JRA]

Maybe the title of this thread should be hub or mid drive? Both work set up properly using the right combination of components. Choice is a good thing.

I do agree with others that a hub is a better option for any road/light trail use. I do prefer a DD though and don't have any problems on hills with it as I find using an appropriate for the grade low gear that allows for a high cadence using about 350w will get me up anything twice as fast as I could do it manually but still maintains good wh/mi results for range. Staying on top of the motor and not lugging it in other words. For higher speeds on more level terrain you need a high enough gear range to accommodate desired cadence/input ratio to do the same.

I do prefer my mid drive for lower cadence trail riding. A torque sensing PAS is a must though, for me at least.

 

[e-boy]

I experienced this on-off feeling riding a BH , not as much on a Pedego , and don't recall that feeling on a Smart Motion .