Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[Johnny]

I actually agree completly with the original statement, I couldnt have put it better. I ride my Brose equipped bikes to enjoy the cycling experience, I ride my CCX to go far and/or fast.

As you also stated in your previous post CCX is not a high quality hub offering. I am talking about high quality offerings.

The one I have been riding on the other hand is simply as good as/superior to any mid drive unless you are on a MTB trail. The drive is smooth from the 0 to 28-29mph, no jitter/hesitation because of bouncing chain etc. even on seriously rough terrain. It is simply a joy to ride.

 

[linklemming]

As you also stated in your previous post CCX is not a high quality hub offering. I am talking about high quality offerings.

The one I have been riding on the other hand is simply as good as/superior to any mid drive unless you are on a MTB trail. The drive is smooth from the 0 to 28-29mph, no jitter/hesitation because of bouncing chain etc. even on seriously rough terrain. It is simply a joy to ride.

And what would that high quality hub drive be???

Would it be better on a 30% grade??

What do you consider a MTB trail?? Your definition could vary widely from mine. The 30% grade I have referenced is on a well groomed wide trail I dont consider a MTB trail. I consider it more of a 'gravel ride'. MY CCX technically isnt used on MTB trails but on gravel rides/trails.

Please elaborate

I have ridden a high quality hub drive (stromer)....loved it, Was it as good as my Brose mid drive....no way unless your talking 25mph+. Still good though. I actually planned on getting one this year but the lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

It will be interesting to see how my DIY torque based hub drive turns out.

 

[pmcdonald]

With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

100% agree with this observation. I came from a 350W 'quality' hub (BH Evo Cross) to a 250W mid drive (Giant Explore). The difference between the two is as Stefan says.

The hub felt like it was pushing me along from behind, the mid drive feels more an extension of my peddling input (albeit far stronger than I could ever manage).

Initially I preferred the feel of the BH hub over a Bafang mid drive I tried but after a year and a half of commuting on the BH I now find the mid drive experience ultimately more rewarding. For me. (That and my hub died with no national BH presence to repair or replace it).

I get the appeal of hubs though - sometimes it's nice to feel pushed along.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For the case of the Vado its got a 48t front and 11-42 rear so its never the case.

Mine is 11-46t, yet of course you are right. I meant the rider of mid-drive motor e-bike co-works with the motor through the drive-train while it doesn't happen with the hub-drive one. Now take Yamaha PW-X2 motor with 85 Nm torque motor and ride it in 36-51t gear: you get 120 Nm torque at the rear wheel and you don't need either 750 or 1000 W to achieve that.

Now, fancy (if it were doable) an ICE car with the engine connected by internal gears directly to the rear axle. No proper transmission, no gear-box. That's the geared hub drive motor e-bike for you.

 

[teskow]

My machine is a hub drive 750 w with a torque sensor, cadence mode and throttle. The assist comes on so mild I sometimes have to look at the watt draw to even know if any assistance is being fed. The harder I pedal the more watts are fed to the motor. Sort of like a throttle on an automobile. A very natural feeling to me. I do not feel pushed along at all unless I use the cadence setting. The on off feeling in cadence mode to me is an unnatural feeling and annoying so I seldom if ever use it. I do not like cadence feature of the power coming on the instant I move the crank.. No Power will come on with the torque sensor until pressure, torque is applied to the crank. How much crank pressure is required to do this depend on the assist level I set it at. Personally I believe it is the cats meow.

 

[opimax]

I have 3 bikes, 2 have hubs , 1 geared and 1 DD. My favorite when working correctly is the Stromer ST 2, most powerful and smoothest drive train. 2nd is the my BH Nitro , geared hub drive. 2nd in power, 1st in riding when motor off and last in smoothness . 3rd is a new Trek 7s Allant. Last in power , slowest bike when completing rides, 2nd for no power.

I have 3 batterries for each but different size. Stromer has most range, Trek is 2nd unless you go slow, very slow ( I don’t) Stromer by far quietest about a tie for 2nd place , didn’t think Trek was supposed to so loud.

Stromer has adjustable torque sensor , Trek needs it or low end torque for slow cadence riders

the engineering of the drive system is more important then the choice IMHO. A crappy mid drive will not feel as good as a quality hub and the other way around too. For me a long distance flatish smooth rider a hub seems better. I was surprised on how little oomph I get from my Trek on roads at 20mph plus and smallish hills.

last category, reliability/service. I would rate Stomer a negative 10, Bh a negative 9 and Trek a positive 9 so far

I have depositS on 3 new WattWagon ”Super bikes” . I am working with them on configuration, not sure if they will be hub or mid drives yet.

 

[opimax]

Stefan, imagine an a vehicle powerEd by electric motor which are known torque monsters and how little transmission is needed..Oh here is one example, maybe you heard of them?


transmission
Featured snippet from the web
Teslas use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The company says its drivetrain has about 17 moving parts compared with about 200 in a conventional internal combustion drivetrain. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free.


on my Trek , they say it can go up any hilll, but they don’t say how slow you are going or how fast you have to clown pedal to get any speed

 

[FlatSix911]

Gentlemen... take a look at these articles for a good discussion on the merits of both drive systems.

https://islandcitybikes.com/f/mid-drive-vs-hub-motor-why-this-is-the-wrong-question

As we move on into the future, we must be careful we do not fall into old ways of thinking that have been proven disastrous for so many. There are very few things in life that are “either/or.”
The Bafang mid-drive motor may be the best motor in the world but it will never be the best motor for every bike, every rider, and every riding condition.
The same can be said for the hub motors built by Grin Technologies. It is our job to look at a bike being brought to us for conversion and say…this motor is the best motor for this bike.

Electric bicycle hub motors vs mid-drive motors: Which should be on your next e-bike?

Electric bicycles are becoming increasingly popular forms of two-wheeled electric transportation for both commuting and pleasure riding. The two most...

electrek.co

Mid-drives have a lot of improvements over older hub motor technology, but they have their own unique issues. There’s a reason hub motors have been around so long – they work.
The main advantages of mid-drive include lower weight and better gear usage, which makes them more appropriate for off-road use and those with hilly terrain to traverse.
Hub-motors, on the other hand, are fairly bulletproof and low maintenance, and thus are usually better for commuters and those that want a simple, reliable e-bike with very little maintenance.

 

[Johnny]

I have ridden a high quality hub drive (stromer)....loved it, Was it as good as my Brose mid drive....no way unless your talking 25mph+. Still good though. I actually planned on getting one this year but the lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

I am talking about Stromer. I don't know which one you rode but my experience is the opposite, Stromer is very smooth from a stand still not 25mph. I love Brose, it is my favorite mid drive but for roads Stromer is faster, absolutely silent and just as smooth.

Would it be better on a 30% grade??

I rode it in San Francisco, though I don't check the grades (so I can't talk about %30) I can say that on hills it has been a better/faster climber for me compared to any other mid drive. I don't consider smooth gravel trails as MTB trails, they are just gravel imo and it does very well on gravel. I even climbed a small section of a MTB trail which I don't recommend, but I was so surprised how smooth it was, not even once it struggled.

I came from a 350W 'quality' hub (BH Evo Cross)

Unfortunately although as a bike and just the motor it is good quality, it is only has a tmm4 which is not enough for smooth riding by itself. It also does not come stock with a higher end foc controller so your range and output power is not what it could be.

 

[tomjasz]

The best motor is the one you ride. Period. The rest is minutiae. As is so often the case we rally behind the eBike we bought as the best choice. It's a shame we waste time trying to convince others, I'd rather ride. I have motors and bikes from 36V 250W to 60V 1500W. Each has delivered more smiles than a giant spliff.

 

[linklemming]

I am talking about Stromer. I don't know which one you rode but my experience is the opposite, Stromer is very smooth from a stand still not 25mph. I love Brose, it is my favorite mid drive but for roads Stromer is faster, absolutely silent and just as smooth.

Im mostly agreeing with you, no doubt the stromer is silent and smooth and definately better for the road but my experience is the brose just gets better the lower gear you use/steeper grade. While the stromer might be 'smooth' on a 15% grade at 8mph, it just doesnt have the torque(due to hub drive and direct drive) to have as much fidelity. By the same token, a 1 ton vw with a 2hp engine could be considered smooth. Extended climbs will also favor the mid drive. Sounds like the stromer is best for you, thats awesome. I planned on owning one this year but my lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

I love them both although I prefer the typical clean packaging of the mid drive (the stromer also has nice clean packaging), they each have their place.

FWIW, I lived in SF for a few years in the late 80s.

 

[Johnny]

definately better for the road but my experience is the brose just gets better the lower gear you use/steeper grade.

In this forum it is mentioned countless times(including me) that mid drives benefit from gearing hence on climbs it is possible(given the bike equipped with the right gearing) to keep it at a cadence that the mid drive is efficient and climb steep hills. However there is also the motor output side to this story, these motors still produce a lot of power even at 5mph though not as efficient.

While the stromer might be 'smooth' on a 15% grade at 8mph,

It "is" very smooth and I am faster than 8mph on %15. Last week we did a climb to Silicon Valley Vista point and the other bike was a Bosch CX. I had to slow down or use level 1, every climb when I increased the assist a notch I was much faster than the CX even when it was on Turbo (t is an ok 14 mile trip with elevation gain around 2500ft, the climb begins in the second half and I believe there are several sections of %20+ gradient). The surprising part was we consumed almost identical WH at the peak.
I have 2 Bosch and 1 Yamaha mid drive and I did the same route many times , they are slower and not smoother.


It is good to hear that you are happy with your Brose offerings, they are great, I would love to have one though I don't have any space or time for another ebike. However for the subject of the matter, I strongly disagree with any claims that state hub motors being useless for climbing, not smooth etc.


Note: I am not a brand fanatic on the contrary I can be overly critical about them even if I own one.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, imagine an a vehicle powerEd by electric motor which are known torque monsters and how little transmission is needed..Oh here is one example, maybe you heard of them?


transmission
Featured snippet from the web
Teslas use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The company says its drivetrain has about 17 moving parts compared with about 200 in a conventional internal combustion drivetrain. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free.


on my Trek , they say it can go up any hilll, but they don’t say how slow you are going or how fast you have to clown pedal to get any speed

The day this Forum becomes Electric Motorbike Review, I will agree

 

[Manu]

Mine is 11-46t, yet of course you are right. I meant the rider of mid-drive motor e-bike co-works with the motor through the drive-train while it doesn't happen with the hub-drive one. Now take Yamaha PW-X2 motor with 85 Nm torque motor and ride it in 36-51t gear: you get 120 Nm torque at the rear wheel and you don't need either 750 or 1000 W to achieve that.

Now, fancy (if it were doable) an ICE car with the engine connected by internal gears directly to the rear axle. No proper transmission, no gear-box. That's the geared hub drive motor e-bike for you.

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[Manu]

 

[FlatSix911]

Great video to showcase the balance and power of the Yamaha mid-drive... thanks for sharing.