Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[Mr. Coffee]

.... My issue: was live in Florida however the only town with hills. I’m between a ride1 top model or motobecane mid drive that comes out September and am really torn which way to go. Not a long commute but several big hills and my main concern is reliability and value for my money. Not sure if you have thoughts or other options you would think could be a good option?

One of the problems is that what a "big hill" is is 100 percent subjective.

I recommend using Google Maps to evaluate your routes. You can choose the "bicycle" icon and directions and let it find routes and look at the elevation profile.

If most of the routes you ride, or the routes you will ride most frequently, show more than about 1000 feet of elevation gain over ten miles, or any continuous hills that climb more than about 300 feet, you probably want to consider a mid-drive.

That is just a rule of thumb and kind of arbitrary, but I'd consider it as a starting point.

 

[Manu]

if that hill is your home you have no choice but a mid-drive and with an 11-40 cassette or more depending on the gradient.

 

[Hubrex]

Welcome to EBR. I would recommend the mid-drive for climbing hills... which model MB are you looking at?

 

[rich c]

Really appreciate the info here and found ur comment to be especially helpful. My issue: was live in Florida however the only town with hills. I’m between a ride1 top model or motobecane mid drive that comes out September and am really torn which way to go. Not a long commute but several big hills and my main concern is reliability and value for my money. Not sure if you have thoughts or other options you would think could be a good option?

I thought the only hills in Florida were the interstate overpasses.

 

[Hubrex]

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www.bikesdirect.com

 

[Hubrex]

I thought the only hills in Florida were the interstate overpasses.

Lol yeah I mean “hills” enough elevation that I am awfully sweaty when it’s 100 degrees out.

 

[FlatSix911]

Save Up to 60% Off HydroformALU Shimano STEPS Mid-Drive eBikes with Advanced Integrated Battery Motobecane Elite eAdventure TEAM, WTB Tubeless Compatible Wheels, FULL Shimano STEPS E5000 ELECTRIC Motor System 1X9 Speed, ROCKSHOX Suspension Forks with

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www.bikesdirect.com

I like the Shimano mid-drive and integrated battery on the Elite Team ... the only downside is waiting 2 months for delivery in September.

If you can live with a frame-mounted battery (the same Shimano mid-drive) on the regular Elite then you can get delivery this month.

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[Hubrex]

Yeah I am not in a rush and prefer the integrated battery but will defer to the experts. But your opinion mid drive over the ride1up? I saw so much good feedback on the ride1up bikes and am super new to the community. Also afraid I spend 2k and the newest technology comes out the following month.

 

[FlatSix911]

The Ride1up is a nice bike, but I would wait for the Shimano mid-drive if it were me...

BTW, the Ride1up now appears to be back-ordered to the end of August.

 

[tomjasz]

If you have a favorite bike consider a kit.

 

[Hubrex]

If you have a favorite bike consider a kit.

I had thought of that; and thank you for the idea but am intimidated with the instillation and don’t have the money to screw it up

 

[Browneye]

The Ride1up is a nice bike, but I would wait for the Shimano mid-drive if it were me...

BTW, the Ride1up now appears to be back-ordered to the end of August.

^^This. After riding all the various bikes I would take a Shimano steps over any hub-drive bike. Period. It's a very nice assist system. My first mountain bike experience was with the Shimano drive and it was excellent - more like my Giant bikes than different.

A mid-drive uses your cassette gearing to best utilize the power/torque output. IMO it's a much superior configuration, although the hub-drive bikes outsell them. I think primarily that is due to initial cost/purchase price. Hub bikes tend to be the cheaper alternative, for a lot of various reasons, mainly because they make a bazillion of them in China.

Just choose a good dealer that can support you after sale. It can be the difference between joy and frustration in the overall ownership experience. And be sure to test-ride them all, so you know one from another, the differences, and your preferences. At least similar or like-for-like bike types.

 

[JoshPDX]

I've owned 2 class 2 hub drive bikes.
My wife has a class 3 hub drive.
I'm in the process of getting a class 3 mid drive.

Hubs do what they do well, for a price point. If you just want easy get up and go or a throttle to twist to move you, they are fine. But most of them are cadence sensor based and have the limitations that come with that. Starts from a stop without a throttle are rough. If you get caught on an incline in the wrong gear your cadence can slow down and it's a slog to get up the hill. If you put your PAS too high then you end up spinning out the pedals because it overcompensates. There's also the issue of weight and where it's at. Rear hubs make bikes heavy on the back half. Carrying them up steps or trying to lift them to hang on a wall can be awkward because of the weight distribution.

Compare that to the mid drive I'm looking at which is a Yamaha branded bike. The torque sensing works great from a stop. You don't need a throttle. When you start to put weight on the pedals like on a climb the motor senses that and gives you more. When I'm riding with my kids that have very fluctuating speeds the mid drive feels much more natural and isn't noticeable. With the cadence sensing hubs trying to manage speeds on hills or inclines was a pain. Not at all an issue with the mid drive. It just is a much more intelligent and integrated part of the bike.

I live in Portland and have taken both drive types up Mt Tabor. The Yamaha mid drive seems lacking on paper but it's not even remotely comparable in real use. It's a buttery smooth, torquey little thing. It zips up Tabor and just feels like a normal bike. The hub drive bikes take a balance of PAS + gearing where you can get enough cadence and assist to get the bike moving but it doesn't really feel like a bike. It's more like a moped with pedals. I also can tell a difference in my body. I've got a hip injury and when on an analog bike or even the hub drive ones, if I have to do a climb and my cadence bogs down it really stresses on that hip and I can feel it for a day or two. Not the case with the mid drive. The torque sensor seems to stop me from over pushing to maintain cadence.

With the motor being mounted low in the crank the balance of bike is a lot better and it's much easier to pick up and move.

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

 

[Hintrod]

I've owned 2 class 2 hub drive bikes.
My wife has a class 3 hub drive.
I'm in the process of getting a class 3 mid drive.

Hubs do what they do well, for a price point. If you just want easy get up and go or a throttle to twist to move you, they are fine. But most of them are cadence sensor based and have the limitations that come with that. Starts from a stop without a throttle are rough. If you get caught on an incline in the wrong gear your cadence can slow down and it's a slog to get up the hill. If you put your PAS too high then you end up spinning out the pedals because it overcompensates. There's also the issue of weight and where it's at. Rear hubs make bikes heavy on the back half. Carrying them up steps or trying to lift them to hang on a wall can be awkward because of the weight distribution.

Compare that to the mid drive I'm looking at which is a Yamaha branded bike. The torque sensing works great from a stop. You don't need a throttle. When you start to put weight on the pedals like on a climb the motor senses that and gives you more. When I'm riding with my kids that have very fluctuating speeds the mid drive feels much more natural and isn't noticeable. With the cadence sensing hubs trying to manage speeds on hills or inclines was a pain. Not at all an issue with the mid drive. It just is a much more intelligent and integrated part of the bike.

I live in Portland and have taken both drive types up Mt Tabor. The Yamaha mid drive seems lacking on paper but it's not even remotely comparable in real use. It's a buttery smooth, torquey little thing. It zips up Tabor and just feels like a normal bike. The hub drive bikes take a balance of PAS + gearing where you can get enough cadence and assist to get the bike moving but it doesn't really feel like a bike. It's more like a moped with pedals. I also can tell a difference in my body. I've got a hip injury and when on an analog bike or even the hub drive ones, if I have to do a climb and my cadence bogs down it really stresses on that hip and I can feel it for a day or two. Not the case with the mid drive. The torque sensor seems to stop me from over pushing to maintain cadence.

With the motor being mounted low in the crank the balance of bike is a lot better and it's much easier to pick up and move.

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike. I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

I have 3000 miles on my Juiced and 1000 miles on my Biktrix. Both are a year and a half old and I like to ride fast on smooth surfaces. As you can tell from the miles I far prefer the hub drive, and the CCX has the motor and torque sensor incredibly dialed in It is smooth and natural.

Because of the zero stress the hub motor puts on the drive train I also have much less wear on the moving parts on my Hub drive than I do on theid drive. Until you have a high quality hub drive with a torque sensor you cannot do a valid comparison....A good hubdrive ebike is very hard to beat and often gets many more miles out of a similar sized battery. My CCX battery gives me twice the miles as my Bixtrix battery and they are both 21 amps!!!

 

[Johnny]

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

You actually are and I can not agree with your conclusion. You are comparing entry level hub drives to mainstream mid drives. High quality hub offerings are a very different story.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike.

You don't, either. You compare a commuter e-bike to an e-MTB.

Compare Juiced CCX to Specialized Vado 5.0. Both are Class 3. Vado weighs 53 lbs while CCX is 65 lbs (Juiced without the battery is heavier than the Specialized with the battery). The 604 Wh battery of the Vado is as good in the terms of range as the 1000 Wh one of the CCX. In the terms of the torque, both bikes are similar (80 Nm for Juiced vs 90 Nm for Specialized) but the torque in the mid-drive motor e-bike is multiplied by the drive-train.

May I also ask what the weight of the Biktrix Ultra FS e-bike is? I hope it is 52-53 lbs (that's the weight of Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro).

You compare the range of a 750 W bike to one with 1000 or 1500 W of power. Also, e-MTBs sport shorter range compared to commuter e-bikes but have better climbing characteristics. One needs to compare apples to apples.

The last thing I need to mention is the ride experience (I concur with @JoshPDX). With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

 

[Johnny]

With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

Though I agree with your other points this one is not correct. As long as you have high sampling rate torque/cadence sensors that are dialed in properly it doesn't matter if you are riding a hub or a mid drive, both will be equally smooth.

 

[linklemming]

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike. I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

I have 3000 miles on my Juiced and 1000 miles on my Biktrix. Both are a year and a half old and I like to ride fast on smooth surfaces. As you can tell from the miles I far prefer the hub drive, and the CCX has the motor and torque sensor incredibly dialed in It is smooth and natural.

Because of the zero stress the hub motor puts on the drive train I also have much less wear on the moving parts on my Hub drive than I do on theid drive. Until you have a high quality hub drive with a torque sensor you cannot do a valid comparison....A good hubdrive ebike is very hard to beat and often gets many more miles out of a similar sized battery. My CCX battery gives me twice the miles as my Bixtrix battery and they are both 21 amps!!!

I would in no way would consider the Juiced CCX(which I own, 4k miles) with torque sensor a 'high quality hub drive'. Its very crude especially at low speeds where it functions more like an on/off switch. If it feels better than the Biktrix Ultra, it just goes to show you how much worse the 'biktrix tuning' is. The CCX is a 'cheap' torque based hub drive (which is why I bought it), feels nothing like a high quality torque based hub drive like a stromer. Try turning off the torque sensor on your CCX and taking it for a ride. The difference isnt that big of a deal at lower speeds, the 'big difference' seems to be that the CCX just goes faster with the torque sensor on as if the cadence based assist just goes to a certain level no matter what, and the torque based assist adds to it.

I also own 2 Brose mid-drives (eMTB(6k miles) and speed pedelec/commuter(3k miles)). The pedaling feel is in a whole different level and why I own them.

No way my CCX goes twice as far for the same watthour as my eMTB(630wh) or commuter(500wh). My testing which I have logged shows the mid-drive to be best at low speeds/hills, at middle speeds (18-24mph) they are about the same. At higher speeds (24mph+) the hub drive seems to have the edge but by no means a factor of 2. At lower speeds the mid-drives do alot better but to be honest, I dont ride the CCX much at lower speeds, its just not very enjoyable du to the low fidelity torque sensing.

I have and ride both types and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Im currently speccing the parts for what I hope to be a 'high quality torque based hub drive'. I will be using a GMAC 10T hub motor, phaserunner, cycle analyst 3 and torque/cadence sensor from grin technologies.

I actually prefer mid-drives for various reasons but for this use case, a hub drive will be better

 

[linklemming]

Though I agree with your other points this one is not correct. As long as you have high sampling rate torque/cadence sensors that are dialed in properly it doesn't matter if you are riding a hub or a mid drive, both will be equally smooth.

I actually agree completly with the original statement, I couldnt have put it better. I ride my Brose equipped bikes to enjoy the cycling experience, I ride my CCX to go far and/or fast.

Not alot of examples of 'high quality sampling rate torque/cadence sensors' hub drives.

Alot of it depends on speed as well, the faster you go, the less the quality of a good torque based system matters. The slower you go, the more you notice the mid-drive torque sensor feedback and the gearing as you go slower allows the mid-drive torque to allow better feedback. My Brose mid-drives get better, the slower I go. Climbing up a 30% grade on the Brose in the lowest gear has incredible feedback (feels like an extension of my leg). Feedback on the my torque based hub drive at 30% grade is non-existant...its effectively a switch.

Yes, I have climbed 30% grades on my CCX, it does it as long as you keep the assistance reasonable and put in alot of human effort and the grade isnt too long. I have also modified the stock gearing from a 52t front chainring to a 42t.

 

[linklemming]

In the terms of the torque, both bikes are similar (80 Nm for Juiced vs 90 Nm for Specialized) but the torque in the mid-drive motor e-bike is multiplied by the drive-train.
With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

There is no torque multiplication happening for most mid drives unless your rear chainring being used is larger than your front chainring. For the case of the Vado its got a 48t front and 11-42 rear so its never the case.

I better way of describing it is that a mid drive allows the motor to operate at more efficient motor speeds over a wider bike speed range(favoring the low end).

Torque on the Vado in high gear is 11/48 times 90nm or 20.6nm.