Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[Browneye]

>snip

48v 500w with pas 0 and throttle would likely be just about right.

I ordered a Bafang rear hub and wheel from Bluenergy for our Roll. Looks to be a direct bolt-in. Panasonic shark pack.

And got a yamaha-powered Giant Explore+ 3 coming. Got the last 2019 at a deal, ships from the east coast warehouse.

I was really interested in the new Yamaha bike, but it seemed too road-racer for me. The Explore suits me better for our riding style.
I really liked the Trek Verve+ as well, but again the Giant seemed to have more of what I wanted.

So now I get to try both hub-drive and mid-drive - demo'd both and liked them both - just a little different in application and use.

I guess our grown-children like and want our retired bikes. Dayum...was gonna sell 'em.

 

[Lukeham]

Just throwing this out there to see what people think who have owned both a mid drive and a hub drive ebike.

Thus far, after selling ebikes for 3 years, and following, researching, testing, riding them since the late 90's, I'm having a hard time identifying why someone would want to pay typically $1000 to $3000 more for mid drives, versus a comparably equipped (i.e. same quality/level of brakes, derailleurs, rims, tires other bike components) hub drive ebike.

In 3 years, I haven't had anyone who owned hub drives, come back and tell me they have had issues with chain failures, derailleur failures, or even motor issues. Whereas, I have had multiple people come in, who bought their mid drives elsewhere, needing to have many of these things replaced or repaired. Also a small handful of complete failures on various brands of mid-drives.

Yet there are so many more models of mid-drives these days, than hub drives being advertised (not sure if more mid drives are actually being sold here in the US than hub drives) by the various OEM's.

The other thing I'm seeing is a lot of mid drives that are 'on sale', with original prices around $3500 to $5000, now priced at half or even less. Lots of Haibikes like that, Bulls, and other European brands. How can dealers afford to carry that inventory and price them so low ? With the traditional margins in the industry, half price would put them well below dealer cost. Very perplexing. How do they stay in business that way ?

Also, many of the mid-drives are rated at 250 watts, or maybe 350 watts, yet with hub drives you can easily get 750 watts, or even 1000 watts being offered (despite 1000 being over the Federal 'legal' standard of 750 watt). Sure you can use gearing with mid drives to achieve higher than normal torque levels (i.e. 90 NM instead of maybe 40 to 60 NM), but low wattage and high torque means a significant trade off in terms of internal gearing wear and tear, and a lot of extra circuitry and software algo's to keep things in check. High torque can be achieved with hub drives the same way - appropriate gearing ratios. Some mid drives do feel a little smoother than some hub drives, but once you are riding regularly, the difference doesn't seem noticeable enough to affect the overall daily ride. The assist and the power seem more important to me, and the mid drives seem to overall top out much faster (unless you get a more expensive Class 3 designed mid drive). Torque sensing vs cadence sensing can be done in both hub drives and mid drives, so it really comes down to personal preference/budget on sensing for the motor assist.

I'm just curious in hearing some honest feedback, and whether it was more a budget issue that people chose a hub drive instead of a mid drive, or whether it was some really important attribute that people who bought mid-drives were willing to shell out so much more money ? Maybe I'm missing something ? Maybe there are people who just like to spend a lot of money on an ebike because of their perceptions that come from how these ebikes are being marketed by industry ? I don't know. Maybe the early adopters of ebikes feel spending more money translates to better quality somehow and they have deeper pockets by being higher income buyers than mainstream population ? Again, not professing to know, just posing some people suppositions.

P.S. Not trying to start a mud slinging thread here either. More interested in the thought process in how people got themselves into one type of drive vs the other. I may sound biased, but I really would like to understand what it is that makes people willing to spend so much more money for a mid drive than they have to for a hub drive.

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

 

[pmcdonald]

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

I've just returned from a 25km ride on my mid drive, most of it unpowered. There were a few steep sections involved. If there's minimal drag from the motor - as there is with my Yamaha - and a good spread of gears - which my dual chain rings give me - it's not hard, well not much harder than a regular bike!

 

[Lukeham]

I've just returned from a 25km ride on my mid drive, most of it unpowered. There were a few steep sections involved. If there's minimal drag from the motor - as there is with my Yamaha - and a good spread of gears - which my dual chain rings give me - it's not hard, well not much harder than a regular bike!

I didn't think you could have a dual chain ring with a mid drive? Did you have to buy a particular kit or anything?

 

[Lukeham]

I didn't think you could have a dual chain ring with a mid drive? Did you have to buy a particular kit or anything?

I'm sorry, I see that you have a yamaha. So I guess they made it to have two chain rings? I know as far as kits go I've read that you have only one chain ring.

 

[Captain Slow]

I own both a mid-drive (Creo E5) and a hub drive (Juiced CCS). But they are quite different bikes, to characterize the difference between the two bikes and say that's indicative of the differences between mid-drive and hub-drive would not be accurate. I will talk about the two and how they compare, but keep in mind, one is a road bike meant for faster road riding with the ability to be a gravel bike as well. The other is really a low cost commuter. Both bikes are entirely different price points as well, which makes quite a difference also.

I'll try to focus on the aspects that are hub vs. mid though.

I know mid drives are said to be better for hill climbing. That may or may not be true, with the two bikes I have I'd honestly say that I don't really see that much of a difference. The Juiced is so much more powerful that if the mid-drive is better at climbing that advantage is offset due to the more than double the power the hub drive has. Now where do I see the advantage of the mid drive. In this case the much smaller motor allows for a battery that is roughly half the size and the bike weighs a whole lot less. That translates into a bike that feels far more like a regular bike. The Juiced feels like a tank in comparison. Because of this, it's far more enjoyable riding the Creo than the Juiced.

Yesterday I did a 70 km ride and used the smart control with my HRM so the motor on the Creo would only come on once my HR reached 135 bpm. The end result is I used 45 wh to go 70 km's or about 0.60 wh per km. In theory I could go about 500 km's at that rate of consumption. Even when I don't use smart control and just ride in Eco I typically use a tick over 2 wh per km on the Creo. In contrast on the Juiced it's more like 5 - 8 wh per km travelled. So even though the battery is almost double the size on the Juiced CCS, my range isn't nearly as good on the Juiced. So yes a big hub motor can give you more power, but personally I prefer the more minimalist approach with a smaller mid-drive.

But the Creo cost me about 2.7 times as much as the Juiced CCS. It was far more expensive. Now that more expensive does get me some other benefits such as far superior shifting. The Creo comes with Ultegra level components whereas the Juiced got me Acera which is something like 3 or 4 levels lower and yes there is a significant difference there.

I had a flat on the CCS once and I hate the slotted axle that you get with hub drives. It took me probably 1.5 - 2 hours to take off the rear wheel, change the tube and replace the brake pads (once you have the rear wheel off you do all the maintenance you can with it off since it's such a pain) and reinstall. On my Creo that would take less than 0.5 hours, easily less. So that brings up the point if you get a flat while out on a ride, well with my Juiced you're pretty much going to need a ride back. With the bigger power of the hub motor you're not using a quick release to hold the rear wheel in place and who rides with big wrenches? Not many I suspect. With the Creo and it's thru axles I can change the tire at the side of the road like I would any conventional bike. If you go on 100+ km rides, that is important.

I think both have their applications where they're better. If I just wanted an inexpensive commuter then I think hub-drive is the way to go. My commute to work is only 18 km's and I'm not going on really long rides on a commuter. Plus it's better for going to the grocery store. As the bike weighs so much more, it's less affected by carrying a lot of weight. But if my budget allowed for it, I find the mid-drive to be a much more satisfying ride and far better for most of the riding I do. But of course the cost difference is massive and I realize this would push a lot of people to a hub drive.

 

[Browneye]

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

 

[Lukeham]

I own both a mid-drive (Creo E5) and a hub drive (Juiced CCS). But they are quite different bikes, to characterize the difference between the two bikes and say that's indicative of the differences between mid-drive and hub-drive would not be accurate. I will talk about the two and how they compare, but keep in mind, one is a road bike meant for faster road riding with the ability to be a gravel bike as well. The other is really a low cost commuter. Both bikes are entirely different price points as well, which makes quite a difference also.

I'll try to focus on the aspects that are hub vs. mid though.

I know mid drives are said to be better for hill climbing. That may or may not be true, with the two bikes I have I'd honestly say that I don't really see that much of a difference. The Juiced is so much more powerful that if the mid-drive is better at climbing that advantage is offset due to the more than double the power the hub drive has. Now where do I see the advantage of the mid drive. In this case the much smaller motor allows for a battery that is roughly half the size and the bike weighs a whole lot less. That translates into a bike that feels far more like a regular bike. The Juiced feels like a tank in comparison. Because of this, it's far more enjoyable riding the Creo than the Juiced.

Yesterday I did a 70 km ride and used the smart control with my HRM so the motor on the Creo would only come on once my HR reached 135 bpm. The end result is I used 45 wh to go 70 km's or about 0.60 wh per km. In theory I could go about 500 km's at that rate of consumption. Even when I don't use smart control and just ride in Eco I typically use a tick over 2 wh per km on the Creo. In contrast on the Juiced it's more like 5 - 8 wh per km travelled. So even though the battery is almost double the size on the Juiced CCS, my range isn't nearly as good on the Juiced. So yes a big hub motor can give you more power, but personally I prefer the more minimalist approach with a smaller mid-drive.

But the Creo cost me about 2.7 times as much as the Juiced CCS. It was far more expensive. Now that more expensive does get me some other benefits such as far superior shifting. The Creo comes with Ultegra level components whereas the Juiced got me Acera which is something like 3 or 4 levels lower and yes there is a significant difference there.

I had a flat on the CCS once and I hate the slotted axle that you get with hub drives. It took me probably 1.5 - 2 hours to take off the rear wheel, change the tube and replace the brake pads (once you have the rear wheel off you do all the maintenance you can with it off since it's such a pain) and reinstall. On my Creo that would take less than 0.5 hours, easily less. So that brings up the point if you get a flat while out on a ride, well with my Juiced you're pretty much going to need a ride back. With the bigger power of the hub motor you're not using a quick release to hold the rear wheel in place and who rides with big wrenches? Not many I suspect. With the Creo and it's thru axles I can change the tire at the side of the road like I would any conventional bike. If you go on 100+ km rides, that is important.

I think both have their applications where they're better. If I just wanted an inexpensive commuter then I think hub-drive is the way to go. My commute to work is only 18 km's and I'm not going on really long rides on a commuter. Plus it's better for going to the grocery store. As the bike weighs so much more, it's less affected by carrying a lot of weight. But if my budget allowed for it, I find the mid-drive to be a much more satisfying ride and far better for most of the riding I do. But of course the cost difference is massive and I realize this would push a lot of people to a hub drive.

Thanks for your input! I took off my rear tire on my hub drive and all I had to do was disconnect the wire from the motor to the controller and loosen a nut on the tire/axle to remove mine. It sounds like some hub motors are really difficult to change a rear tire on, but mine isn't so bad. Do you have less gears with the juiced?

 

[Lukeham]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

I'm speaking of times when perhaps your battery becomes defective while riding etc.

 

[Sierratim]

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

The single chain ring is a trend across many bike brands and models, not just ebikes. It simplifies and lightens the bike. This works esp well with the new wider range 11 & 12 speed cassettes.

That aside, I've owned both hub and mid-drive ebikes. I converted a MTB to the hub drive bike selecting the components to get enough torque to climb around our hilly little town. It worked fine for some years. I did occasionally use the 3 ring setup, but never the smallest ring.

When it came time to replace the DIY mid-drive I test rode quite a few bikes and was attracted to the mid-drive for lower overall weight, better balance, and hill climbing. At first I focused on brands that offered 2 chain rings, but found that the 1x setups worked better than I expected. After a year I don't regret going with the 1x mid-drive. Plenty of torque. The 1x11 gearing works well on most trails even without electric assist.

BTW - Neither of these bikes would have gotten me home without electric assist. The hills are too steep and the bikes are still heavy...

 

[Lukeham]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

Anyone can find themselves pedaling an E Bike if the battery dies or quits working. My E bike weighs 65lbs and I have 3 chain rings and I can tell you that it helps me a lot if I pedal without assistance as I was able to climb some pretty steep hills like this. I tried it out to see what it was like without assistance from the motor. I realize that a hub motor doesn't utilize the drive train as a mid drive does, but on my display my current levels go down when I pedal harder or rather when I am in the appropriate gear for the speed and incline/decline that I am riding on. My battery lasts longer too if I am conscious of my gearing so gearing isn't pointless in a hub motor. In fact, it makes the motor more efficient to be in the appropriate gear and to help the motor along instead of ghost pedaling. Although a hub motor doesn't use the drive train directly and only has one gear it definitely benefits from gearing. I wasn't talking about gearing while using assist anyway. I was more curious as to how hard it would be to pedal a heavy ebike with only one 1X drive train. Like I said one might find himself pedaling a heavy ebike without the benefit of electrical power if the battery dies or becomes defective or if the controller quits. Some people DO pedal unassisted and use assist and throttle intermittently so that they get even more of a workout. I don't, but I've read that others do. I just like the idea of being able to pedal home without it becoming too much of a grueling affair if something happened to the electrical components of my E-Bike.

 

[Lukeham]

The single chain ring is a trend across many bike brands and models, not just ebikes. It simplifies and lightens the bike. This works esp well with the new wider range 11 & 12 speed cassettes.

That aside, I've owned both hub and mid-drive ebikes. I converted a MTB to the hub drive bike selecting the components to get enough torque to climb around our hilly little town. It worked fine for some years. I did occasionally use the 3 ring setup, but never the smallest ring.

When it came time to replace the DIY mid-drive I test rode quite a few bikes and was attracted to the mid-drive for lower overall weight, better balance, and hill climbing. At first I focused on brands that offered 2 chain rings, but found that the 1x setups worked better than I expected. After a year I don't regret going with the 1x mid-drive. Plenty of torque. The 1x11 gearing works well on most trails even without electric assist.

BTW - Neither of these bikes would have gotten me home without electric assist. The hills are too steep and the bikes are still heavy...

Gotcha, that is interesting about the 11 and 12 speed cassettes. I will read up more on this. I don't have a preference for either mid drive or hubs....I have just been curious as to what difference that it would make only having 1 chain ring. Thanks for your input.

 

[Browneye]

I'm speaking of times when perhaps your battery becomes defective while riding etc.

It doesn't.

 

[Captain Slow]

Thanks for your input! I took off my rear tire on my hub drive and all I had to do was disconnect the wire from the motor to the controller and loosen a nut on the tire/axle to remove mine. It sounds like some hub motors are really difficult to change a rear tire on, but mine isn't so bad. Do you have less gears with the juiced?

Taking the wheel off is easy, putting it back on is the hard part. I believe the dropout fits a 10 mm round axle, but for some bikes they take a 14 mm axle and grind two opposite sides flat to fit into the drop out and to resist the torque. If I ever get a hub drive again, it will have to have a torque arm. I think that allows a round axle and then the whole taking the wheel off and putting it back on becomes a lot easier. But even that that it's more involved than a conventional bike or a mid-drive that has regular wheels.

 

[Sierratim]

Taking the wheel off is easy, putting it back on is the hard part. I believe the dropout fits a 10 mm round axle, but for some bikes they take a 14 mm axle and grind two opposite sides flat to fit into the drop out and to resist the torque. If I ever get a hub drive again, it will have to have a torque arm. I think that allows a round axle and then the whole taking the wheel off and putting it back on becomes a lot easier. But even that that it's more involved than a conventional bike or a mid-drive that has regular wheels.

My hub drive DIY ebike had a flattened 14mm axle with torque arms, but being a retired engineer I'm sure this was over kill. Fixing a flat was a bit of a challenge...

 

[AHicks]

Taking the wheel off is easy, putting it back on is the hard part. I believe the dropout fits a 10 mm round axle, but for some bikes they take a 14 mm axle and grind two opposite sides flat to fit into the drop out and to resist the torque. If I ever get a hub drive again, it will have to have a torque arm. I think that allows a round axle and then the whole taking the wheel off and putting it back on becomes a lot easier. But even that that it's more involved than a conventional bike or a mid-drive that has regular wheels.

Hub drives all have those flats on the axles, except for the GMAC, but I won't get into that. The flats are what keeps the axle from spinning when power is applied. Torque arms add even more security in that regard. The more power you have, the more you (should) depend on torque arms. Bigger power and gear drives will often use 2 torque arms.

Changing a tire or tube on a hub drive equipped bike is a challenge at first, but my bet is, once you've done it 3-4 times, you'll have that whole process down to 1/2 an hour. It's not really that difficult once familiar. There's no need to unplug the wires for instance. -Al

 

[Captain Slow]

Hub drives all have those flats on the axles, except for the GMAC, but I won't get into that. The flats are what keeps the axle from spinning when power is applied. Torque arms add even more security in that regard. The more power you have, the more you (should) depend on torque arms. Bigger power and gear drives will often use 2 torque arms.

Changing a tire or tube on a hub drive equipped bike is a challenge at first, but my bet is, once you've done it 3-4 times, you'll have that whole process down to 1/2 an hour. It's not really that difficult once familiar. There's no need to unplug the wires for instance. -Al

Gee I didn't know that. Since I live in Vancouver and close to Grin I surf their website a fair bit and when I saw the GMAC it made me think that if you had a torque arm you didn't need the flat axle. So that isn't the case then?

 

[Deacon Blues]

Grin sells a couple of hub motors with a through axle design that uses a torque arm. The hub motor industry is changing as more and more newer bikes are coming out with through axles.

 

[AHicks]

The GMAC uses a torque arm that is fastened right to the stationary side of the motor. A REALLY cool design, that also lets them route the wiring harness through that too, eliminating the need to run it through the axle - making that axle much sturdier and able to handle more abuse.

To my knowledge, they're the only ones doing that (not using flats on the axle), though that's not written in stone. There could be others.

 

[tomjasz]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance -

You mean you don't! I've worked with dozens of customers that do, and the least resistance is important to them. Especially popular with former lycra riders turned old farts that want a cushion to get them home. I'd say it's in the top ten customer service questions.