Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[Lukeham]

I didn't think you could have a dual chain ring with a mid drive? Did you have to buy a particular kit or anything?

I'm sorry, I see that you have a yamaha. So I guess they made it to have two chain rings? I know as far as kits go I've read that you have only one chain ring.

 

[Browneye]

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

 

[Lukeham]

I own both a mid-drive (Creo E5) and a hub drive (Juiced CCS). But they are quite different bikes, to characterize the difference between the two bikes and say that's indicative of the differences between mid-drive and hub-drive would not be accurate. I will talk about the two and how they compare, but keep in mind, one is a road bike meant for faster road riding with the ability to be a gravel bike as well. The other is really a low cost commuter. Both bikes are entirely different price points as well, which makes quite a difference also.

I'll try to focus on the aspects that are hub vs. mid though.

I know mid drives are said to be better for hill climbing. That may or may not be true, with the two bikes I have I'd honestly say that I don't really see that much of a difference. The Juiced is so much more powerful that if the mid-drive is better at climbing that advantage is offset due to the more than double the power the hub drive has. Now where do I see the advantage of the mid drive. In this case the much smaller motor allows for a battery that is roughly half the size and the bike weighs a whole lot less. That translates into a bike that feels far more like a regular bike. The Juiced feels like a tank in comparison. Because of this, it's far more enjoyable riding the Creo than the Juiced.

Yesterday I did a 70 km ride and used the smart control with my HRM so the motor on the Creo would only come on once my HR reached 135 bpm. The end result is I used 45 wh to go 70 km's or about 0.60 wh per km. In theory I could go about 500 km's at that rate of consumption. Even when I don't use smart control and just ride in Eco I typically use a tick over 2 wh per km on the Creo. In contrast on the Juiced it's more like 5 - 8 wh per km travelled. So even though the battery is almost double the size on the Juiced CCS, my range isn't nearly as good on the Juiced. So yes a big hub motor can give you more power, but personally I prefer the more minimalist approach with a smaller mid-drive.

But the Creo cost me about 2.7 times as much as the Juiced CCS. It was far more expensive. Now that more expensive does get me some other benefits such as far superior shifting. The Creo comes with Ultegra level components whereas the Juiced got me Acera which is something like 3 or 4 levels lower and yes there is a significant difference there.

I had a flat on the CCS once and I hate the slotted axle that you get with hub drives. It took me probably 1.5 - 2 hours to take off the rear wheel, change the tube and replace the brake pads (once you have the rear wheel off you do all the maintenance you can with it off since it's such a pain) and reinstall. On my Creo that would take less than 0.5 hours, easily less. So that brings up the point if you get a flat while out on a ride, well with my Juiced you're pretty much going to need a ride back. With the bigger power of the hub motor you're not using a quick release to hold the rear wheel in place and who rides with big wrenches? Not many I suspect. With the Creo and it's thru axles I can change the tire at the side of the road like I would any conventional bike. If you go on 100+ km rides, that is important.

I think both have their applications where they're better. If I just wanted an inexpensive commuter then I think hub-drive is the way to go. My commute to work is only 18 km's and I'm not going on really long rides on a commuter. Plus it's better for going to the grocery store. As the bike weighs so much more, it's less affected by carrying a lot of weight. But if my budget allowed for it, I find the mid-drive to be a much more satisfying ride and far better for most of the riding I do. But of course the cost difference is massive and I realize this would push a lot of people to a hub drive.

Thanks for your input! I took off my rear tire on my hub drive and all I had to do was disconnect the wire from the motor to the controller and loosen a nut on the tire/axle to remove mine. It sounds like some hub motors are really difficult to change a rear tire on, but mine isn't so bad. Do you have less gears with the juiced?

 

[Lukeham]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

I'm speaking of times when perhaps your battery becomes defective while riding etc.

 

[Sierratim]

One thing that I notice that no one mentions is that with a mid drive you only have a 1x drive train and to me that is off putting because if you have to pedal the bike without assist, then it could be very difficult going up hills. I like the idea of having an ebike that can be pedaled easily in the advent that the power is cut, and a bikes gearing has more to do with this than a bikes weight.

The single chain ring is a trend across many bike brands and models, not just ebikes. It simplifies and lightens the bike. This works esp well with the new wider range 11 & 12 speed cassettes.

That aside, I've owned both hub and mid-drive ebikes. I converted a MTB to the hub drive bike selecting the components to get enough torque to climb around our hilly little town. It worked fine for some years. I did occasionally use the 3 ring setup, but never the smallest ring.

When it came time to replace the DIY mid-drive I test rode quite a few bikes and was attracted to the mid-drive for lower overall weight, better balance, and hill climbing. At first I focused on brands that offered 2 chain rings, but found that the 1x setups worked better than I expected. After a year I don't regret going with the 1x mid-drive. Plenty of torque. The 1x11 gearing works well on most trails even without electric assist.

BTW - Neither of these bikes would have gotten me home without electric assist. The hills are too steep and the bikes are still heavy...

 

[Lukeham]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance - it's the whole entire reason for buying one in the first place.
And IF you did, or wanted to, they pedal just fine. Just know they nearly twice what a regular pedal bike weighs, so they feel heavy.

Any modern mid-drive from the big-3 have gears to match the bike and can and will pedal without assistance. Most anyone that rides one will say they offer a more integrated rider experience than a hub-drive type assist system. The reason they're better hill climbers is because they can utilize those gears for best advantage. A hub-drive assist only has one motor, the controller provides for varied speed based on sensor input or throttle. It doesn't care what you do with your gears.

Double chain rings is definitely not a popular feature on ebikes, Yamaha being the only or one of the only ones to offer them, and I'm not sure they even still are. It becomes redundant with a powerful assist system.

You should really go demo as many ebikes as you can stand. It will provide experience to refine your decision options, understand what suits or appeals. And you'll better recognize value and a deal when you see one.
Selecting a reliable dealer to provide technical assistance can be the difference between satisfaction and frustration with the ownership experience.

Anyone can find themselves pedaling an E Bike if the battery dies or quits working. My E bike weighs 65lbs and I have 3 chain rings and I can tell you that it helps me a lot if I pedal without assistance as I was able to climb some pretty steep hills like this. I tried it out to see what it was like without assistance from the motor. I realize that a hub motor doesn't utilize the drive train as a mid drive does, but on my display my current levels go down when I pedal harder or rather when I am in the appropriate gear for the speed and incline/decline that I am riding on. My battery lasts longer too if I am conscious of my gearing so gearing isn't pointless in a hub motor. In fact, it makes the motor more efficient to be in the appropriate gear and to help the motor along instead of ghost pedaling. Although a hub motor doesn't use the drive train directly and only has one gear it definitely benefits from gearing. I wasn't talking about gearing while using assist anyway. I was more curious as to how hard it would be to pedal a heavy ebike with only one 1X drive train. Like I said one might find himself pedaling a heavy ebike without the benefit of electrical power if the battery dies or becomes defective or if the controller quits. Some people DO pedal unassisted and use assist and throttle intermittently so that they get even more of a workout. I don't, but I've read that others do. I just like the idea of being able to pedal home without it becoming too much of a grueling affair if something happened to the electrical components of my E-Bike.

 

[Lukeham]

The single chain ring is a trend across many bike brands and models, not just ebikes. It simplifies and lightens the bike. This works esp well with the new wider range 11 & 12 speed cassettes.

That aside, I've owned both hub and mid-drive ebikes. I converted a MTB to the hub drive bike selecting the components to get enough torque to climb around our hilly little town. It worked fine for some years. I did occasionally use the 3 ring setup, but never the smallest ring.

When it came time to replace the DIY mid-drive I test rode quite a few bikes and was attracted to the mid-drive for lower overall weight, better balance, and hill climbing. At first I focused on brands that offered 2 chain rings, but found that the 1x setups worked better than I expected. After a year I don't regret going with the 1x mid-drive. Plenty of torque. The 1x11 gearing works well on most trails even without electric assist.

BTW - Neither of these bikes would have gotten me home without electric assist. The hills are too steep and the bikes are still heavy...

Gotcha, that is interesting about the 11 and 12 speed cassettes. I will read up more on this. I don't have a preference for either mid drive or hubs....I have just been curious as to what difference that it would make only having 1 chain ring. Thanks for your input.

 

[Browneye]

I'm speaking of times when perhaps your battery becomes defective while riding etc.

It doesn't.

 

[Sierratim]

Taking the wheel off is easy, putting it back on is the hard part. I believe the dropout fits a 10 mm round axle, but for some bikes they take a 14 mm axle and grind two opposite sides flat to fit into the drop out and to resist the torque. If I ever get a hub drive again, it will have to have a torque arm. I think that allows a round axle and then the whole taking the wheel off and putting it back on becomes a lot easier. But even that that it's more involved than a conventional bike or a mid-drive that has regular wheels.

My hub drive DIY ebike had a flattened 14mm axle with torque arms, but being a retired engineer I'm sure this was over kill. Fixing a flat was a bit of a challenge...

 

[AHicks]

Taking the wheel off is easy, putting it back on is the hard part. I believe the dropout fits a 10 mm round axle, but for some bikes they take a 14 mm axle and grind two opposite sides flat to fit into the drop out and to resist the torque. If I ever get a hub drive again, it will have to have a torque arm. I think that allows a round axle and then the whole taking the wheel off and putting it back on becomes a lot easier. But even that that it's more involved than a conventional bike or a mid-drive that has regular wheels.

Hub drives all have those flats on the axles, except for the GMAC, but I won't get into that. The flats are what keeps the axle from spinning when power is applied. Torque arms add even more security in that regard. The more power you have, the more you (should) depend on torque arms. Bigger power and gear drives will often use 2 torque arms.

Changing a tire or tube on a hub drive equipped bike is a challenge at first, but my bet is, once you've done it 3-4 times, you'll have that whole process down to 1/2 an hour. It's not really that difficult once familiar. There's no need to unplug the wires for instance. -Al

 

[Deacon Blues]

Grin sells a couple of hub motors with a through axle design that uses a torque arm. The hub motor industry is changing as more and more newer bikes are coming out with through axles.

 

[AHicks]

The GMAC uses a torque arm that is fastened right to the stationary side of the motor. A REALLY cool design, that also lets them route the wiring harness through that too, eliminating the need to run it through the axle - making that axle much sturdier and able to handle more abuse.

To my knowledge, they're the only ones doing that (not using flats on the axle), though that's not written in stone. There could be others.

 

[tomjasz]

No one pedals an electric bike without assistance -

You mean you don't! I've worked with dozens of customers that do, and the least resistance is important to them. Especially popular with former lycra riders turned old farts that want a cushion to get them home. I'd say it's in the top ten customer service questions.

 

[EMGX]

You mean you don't! I've worked with dozens of customers that do, and the least resistance is important to them. Especially popular with former lycra riders turned old farts that want a cushion to get them home. I'd say it's in the top ten customer service questions.

I agree, I try to mostly ride without assist but use it a lot on hills where I want or really need it. A couple days ago I unexpectedly ran out of battery in very hilly terrain and barely made it back home with much suffering. On a heavier bike I would have called my wife to come get me. The stock weight on my BH Gravel X is 40# which is about as light as a mid drive with an aluminum frame and a comparable battery gets. I wouldn't want anything heavier, it would take the fun out of biking for me. Additionally I changed the chainrings from 48/36 to 44/32 (smallest that will fit on the spider) and the cassette from 11-28 to 11-34 (largest that will work with the derailleur), it makes quite a bit of difference and having a double chainring is a big advantage to me.

 

[tomjasz]

I agree, I try to mostly ride without assist but use it a lot on hills where I want or really need it. A couple days ago I unexpectedly ran out of battery in very hilly terrain and barely made it back home with much suffering. On a heavier bike I would have called my wife to come get me. The stock weight on my BH Gravel X is 40# which is about as light as a mid drive with an aluminum frame and a comparable battery gets. I wouldn't want anything heavier, it would take the fun out of biking for me. Additionally I changed the chainrings from 48/36 to 44/32 (smallest that will fit on the spider) and the cassette from 11-28 to 11-34 (largest that will work with the derailleur), it makes quite a bit of difference and having a double chainring is a big advantage to me.

A kit build? Which motor?

 

[EMGX]

A kit build? Which motor?

Not a kit, a BH/easy motion Rebel Gravel X with a Yamaha PW-SE mid drive. It was an impulse buy on Ebay for less than 1/2 MSRP ($1,500 including shipping). I like it a lot but there are compromises vs a regular pedal bike, mostly the weight. I was going to take it for a few days on a 174 mile route in eastern Oregon that has some long and steep climbs but after the last ride where the battery went flat in steep hills a couple miles from home I'm going to take a regular, much lighter, pedal bike instead. 3 bars (30%) showed on the display near the end of a 32 mile ride (I started with 73% charge) but when I hit some really steep stuff it quickly went down to flashing 1 bar which was 9% so I turned the assist off for the rest of the way.

 

[pmcdonald]

I'm sorry, I see that you have a yamaha. So I guess they made it to have two chain rings? I know as far as kits go I've read that you have only one chain ring.

Yes, multiple chain rings are pretty common pairings with Yamaha & SyncDrive motors. They've been a huge help for me a few times on rides with non-motorised friends.

There was a lengthy chain ring debate here: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-bike-to-have-more-than-one-chain-ring.33180/

 

[lsnz]

"A lot of buyers interested in ebikes don't seem to be avid cyclists..." That's me, although I was commuting on my old mountain bike for several years before buying an ebike. The only problems I ever had were with my derailleur and rear sprocket. I bought a mid-drive ebike (Bosch performance line) because I could get a hub gear, which I thought would lead to less maintenance. I've just gone over 5000 miles with no problems so it's worked out so far. But - was my reasoning bad?

 

[Hubrex]

There are a couple of things going on here and I think it is easier to split them out.

Probably the biggest advantage to a mid-drive over a hub drive is that you will have superior hill-climbing ability. A smaller but still noticeable advantage for many riders is that you can get slightly more range, sometimes dramatically so if the route you are riding is at all hilly.

Mid-drive bikes have been under furious evolution the last several years. Upgraded component sets (which can better handle the higher torque from a motor) and frame designs specific to mid-drives have greatly improved the durability and reliability of mid-drives. So one reason there are lots of discounted mid-drive e-bikes is because they are like last year's iPhone.

Finally, as I've said multiple times, motor wattage figures are Not To Be Trusted. The manufacturers are all lying, and they are lying for different reasons and in different directions so it is impossible to make meaningful comparisons based only on wattage.

Both hub-drive and mid-drive bikes are useful. If I lived in Florida or Nebraska it would be a no-brainer to ride a hub drive. But I live in the mountains so I want a mid-drive.

Really appreciate the info here and found ur comment to be especially helpful. My issue: was live in Florida however the only town with hills. I’m between a ride1 top model or motobecane mid drive that comes out September and am really torn which way to go. Not a long commute but several big hills and my main concern is reliability and value for my money. Not sure if you have thoughts or other options you would think could be a good option?

 

[FlatSix911]

Really appreciate the info here and found ur comment to be especially helpful. My issue: was live in Florida however the only town with hills.
I’m between a ride1 top model or Motobecane mid-drive that comes out September and am really torn which way to go.
Not a long commute but several big hills and my main concern is reliability and value for my money.
Not sure if you have thoughts or other options you would think could be a good option?

Welcome to EBR. I would recommend the mid-drive for climbing hills... which model MB are you looking at?