Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

[JoshPDX]

I've owned 2 class 2 hub drive bikes.
My wife has a class 3 hub drive.
I'm in the process of getting a class 3 mid drive.

Hubs do what they do well, for a price point. If you just want easy get up and go or a throttle to twist to move you, they are fine. But most of them are cadence sensor based and have the limitations that come with that. Starts from a stop without a throttle are rough. If you get caught on an incline in the wrong gear your cadence can slow down and it's a slog to get up the hill. If you put your PAS too high then you end up spinning out the pedals because it overcompensates. There's also the issue of weight and where it's at. Rear hubs make bikes heavy on the back half. Carrying them up steps or trying to lift them to hang on a wall can be awkward because of the weight distribution.

Compare that to the mid drive I'm looking at which is a Yamaha branded bike. The torque sensing works great from a stop. You don't need a throttle. When you start to put weight on the pedals like on a climb the motor senses that and gives you more. When I'm riding with my kids that have very fluctuating speeds the mid drive feels much more natural and isn't noticeable. With the cadence sensing hubs trying to manage speeds on hills or inclines was a pain. Not at all an issue with the mid drive. It just is a much more intelligent and integrated part of the bike.

I live in Portland and have taken both drive types up Mt Tabor. The Yamaha mid drive seems lacking on paper but it's not even remotely comparable in real use. It's a buttery smooth, torquey little thing. It zips up Tabor and just feels like a normal bike. The hub drive bikes take a balance of PAS + gearing where you can get enough cadence and assist to get the bike moving but it doesn't really feel like a bike. It's more like a moped with pedals. I also can tell a difference in my body. I've got a hip injury and when on an analog bike or even the hub drive ones, if I have to do a climb and my cadence bogs down it really stresses on that hip and I can feel it for a day or two. Not the case with the mid drive. The torque sensor seems to stop me from over pushing to maintain cadence.

With the motor being mounted low in the crank the balance of bike is a lot better and it's much easier to pick up and move.

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

 

[Hintrod]

I've owned 2 class 2 hub drive bikes.
My wife has a class 3 hub drive.
I'm in the process of getting a class 3 mid drive.

Hubs do what they do well, for a price point. If you just want easy get up and go or a throttle to twist to move you, they are fine. But most of them are cadence sensor based and have the limitations that come with that. Starts from a stop without a throttle are rough. If you get caught on an incline in the wrong gear your cadence can slow down and it's a slog to get up the hill. If you put your PAS too high then you end up spinning out the pedals because it overcompensates. There's also the issue of weight and where it's at. Rear hubs make bikes heavy on the back half. Carrying them up steps or trying to lift them to hang on a wall can be awkward because of the weight distribution.

Compare that to the mid drive I'm looking at which is a Yamaha branded bike. The torque sensing works great from a stop. You don't need a throttle. When you start to put weight on the pedals like on a climb the motor senses that and gives you more. When I'm riding with my kids that have very fluctuating speeds the mid drive feels much more natural and isn't noticeable. With the cadence sensing hubs trying to manage speeds on hills or inclines was a pain. Not at all an issue with the mid drive. It just is a much more intelligent and integrated part of the bike.

I live in Portland and have taken both drive types up Mt Tabor. The Yamaha mid drive seems lacking on paper but it's not even remotely comparable in real use. It's a buttery smooth, torquey little thing. It zips up Tabor and just feels like a normal bike. The hub drive bikes take a balance of PAS + gearing where you can get enough cadence and assist to get the bike moving but it doesn't really feel like a bike. It's more like a moped with pedals. I also can tell a difference in my body. I've got a hip injury and when on an analog bike or even the hub drive ones, if I have to do a climb and my cadence bogs down it really stresses on that hip and I can feel it for a day or two. Not the case with the mid drive. The torque sensor seems to stop me from over pushing to maintain cadence.

With the motor being mounted low in the crank the balance of bike is a lot better and it's much easier to pick up and move.

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike. I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

I have 3000 miles on my Juiced and 1000 miles on my Biktrix. Both are a year and a half old and I like to ride fast on smooth surfaces. As you can tell from the miles I far prefer the hub drive, and the CCX has the motor and torque sensor incredibly dialed in It is smooth and natural.

Because of the zero stress the hub motor puts on the drive train I also have much less wear on the moving parts on my Hub drive than I do on theid drive. Until you have a high quality hub drive with a torque sensor you cannot do a valid comparison....A good hubdrive ebike is very hard to beat and often gets many more miles out of a similar sized battery. My CCX battery gives me twice the miles as my Bixtrix battery and they are both 21 amps!!!

 

[Johnny]

I'm not knocking hub motors. They are great for commuting and cheap entry e-bikes. But there is a reason that mid drives charge a premium.

You actually are and I can not agree with your conclusion. You are comparing entry level hub drives to mainstream mid drives. High quality hub offerings are a very different story.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike.

You don't, either. You compare a commuter e-bike to an e-MTB.

Compare Juiced CCX to Specialized Vado 5.0. Both are Class 3. Vado weighs 53 lbs while CCX is 65 lbs (Juiced without the battery is heavier than the Specialized with the battery). The 604 Wh battery of the Vado is as good in the terms of range as the 1000 Wh one of the CCX. In the terms of the torque, both bikes are similar (80 Nm for Juiced vs 90 Nm for Specialized) but the torque in the mid-drive motor e-bike is multiplied by the drive-train.

May I also ask what the weight of the Biktrix Ultra FS e-bike is? I hope it is 52-53 lbs (that's the weight of Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro).

You compare the range of a 750 W bike to one with 1000 or 1500 W of power. Also, e-MTBs sport shorter range compared to commuter e-bikes but have better climbing characteristics. One needs to compare apples to apples.

The last thing I need to mention is the ride experience (I concur with @JoshPDX). With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

 

[Johnny]

With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

Though I agree with your other points this one is not correct. As long as you have high sampling rate torque/cadence sensors that are dialed in properly it doesn't matter if you are riding a hub or a mid drive, both will be equally smooth.

 

[linklemming]

Your comparison is not a good one because you are not comparing a high quality hubdrive with a torque and cadence sensor with a high quality mid drive bike. I have a Juiced CCX hubdrive and a Biktrix Ultra FS mid drive.

I have 3000 miles on my Juiced and 1000 miles on my Biktrix. Both are a year and a half old and I like to ride fast on smooth surfaces. As you can tell from the miles I far prefer the hub drive, and the CCX has the motor and torque sensor incredibly dialed in It is smooth and natural.

Because of the zero stress the hub motor puts on the drive train I also have much less wear on the moving parts on my Hub drive than I do on theid drive. Until you have a high quality hub drive with a torque sensor you cannot do a valid comparison....A good hubdrive ebike is very hard to beat and often gets many more miles out of a similar sized battery. My CCX battery gives me twice the miles as my Bixtrix battery and they are both 21 amps!!!

I would in no way would consider the Juiced CCX(which I own, 4k miles) with torque sensor a 'high quality hub drive'. Its very crude especially at low speeds where it functions more like an on/off switch. If it feels better than the Biktrix Ultra, it just goes to show you how much worse the 'biktrix tuning' is. The CCX is a 'cheap' torque based hub drive (which is why I bought it), feels nothing like a high quality torque based hub drive like a stromer. Try turning off the torque sensor on your CCX and taking it for a ride. The difference isnt that big of a deal at lower speeds, the 'big difference' seems to be that the CCX just goes faster with the torque sensor on as if the cadence based assist just goes to a certain level no matter what, and the torque based assist adds to it.

I also own 2 Brose mid-drives (eMTB(6k miles) and speed pedelec/commuter(3k miles)). The pedaling feel is in a whole different level and why I own them.

No way my CCX goes twice as far for the same watthour as my eMTB(630wh) or commuter(500wh). My testing which I have logged shows the mid-drive to be best at low speeds/hills, at middle speeds (18-24mph) they are about the same. At higher speeds (24mph+) the hub drive seems to have the edge but by no means a factor of 2. At lower speeds the mid-drives do alot better but to be honest, I dont ride the CCX much at lower speeds, its just not very enjoyable du to the low fidelity torque sensing.

I have and ride both types and both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Im currently speccing the parts for what I hope to be a 'high quality torque based hub drive'. I will be using a GMAC 10T hub motor, phaserunner, cycle analyst 3 and torque/cadence sensor from grin technologies.

I actually prefer mid-drives for various reasons but for this use case, a hub drive will be better

 

[linklemming]

Though I agree with your other points this one is not correct. As long as you have high sampling rate torque/cadence sensors that are dialed in properly it doesn't matter if you are riding a hub or a mid drive, both will be equally smooth.

I actually agree completly with the original statement, I couldnt have put it better. I ride my Brose equipped bikes to enjoy the cycling experience, I ride my CCX to go far and/or fast.

Not alot of examples of 'high quality sampling rate torque/cadence sensors' hub drives.

Alot of it depends on speed as well, the faster you go, the less the quality of a good torque based system matters. The slower you go, the more you notice the mid-drive torque sensor feedback and the gearing as you go slower allows the mid-drive torque to allow better feedback. My Brose mid-drives get better, the slower I go. Climbing up a 30% grade on the Brose in the lowest gear has incredible feedback (feels like an extension of my leg). Feedback on the my torque based hub drive at 30% grade is non-existant...its effectively a switch.

Yes, I have climbed 30% grades on my CCX, it does it as long as you keep the assistance reasonable and put in alot of human effort and the grade isnt too long. I have also modified the stock gearing from a 52t front chainring to a 42t.

 

[linklemming]

In the terms of the torque, both bikes are similar (80 Nm for Juiced vs 90 Nm for Specialized) but the torque in the mid-drive motor e-bike is multiplied by the drive-train.
With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

There is no torque multiplication happening for most mid drives unless your rear chainring being used is larger than your front chainring. For the case of the Vado its got a 48t front and 11-42 rear so its never the case.

I better way of describing it is that a mid drive allows the motor to operate at more efficient motor speeds over a wider bike speed range(favoring the low end).

Torque on the Vado in high gear is 11/48 times 90nm or 20.6nm.

 

[Johnny]

I actually agree completly with the original statement, I couldnt have put it better. I ride my Brose equipped bikes to enjoy the cycling experience, I ride my CCX to go far and/or fast.

As you also stated in your previous post CCX is not a high quality hub offering. I am talking about high quality offerings.

The one I have been riding on the other hand is simply as good as/superior to any mid drive unless you are on a MTB trail. The drive is smooth from the 0 to 28-29mph, no jitter/hesitation because of bouncing chain etc. even on seriously rough terrain. It is simply a joy to ride.

 

[linklemming]

As you also stated in your previous post CCX is not a high quality hub offering. I am talking about high quality offerings.

The one I have been riding on the other hand is simply as good as/superior to any mid drive unless you are on a MTB trail. The drive is smooth from the 0 to 28-29mph, no jitter/hesitation because of bouncing chain etc. even on seriously rough terrain. It is simply a joy to ride.

And what would that high quality hub drive be???

Would it be better on a 30% grade??

What do you consider a MTB trail?? Your definition could vary widely from mine. The 30% grade I have referenced is on a well groomed wide trail I dont consider a MTB trail. I consider it more of a 'gravel ride'. MY CCX technically isnt used on MTB trails but on gravel rides/trails.

Please elaborate

I have ridden a high quality hub drive (stromer)....loved it, Was it as good as my Brose mid drive....no way unless your talking 25mph+. Still good though. I actually planned on getting one this year but the lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

It will be interesting to see how my DIY torque based hub drive turns out.

 

[pmcdonald]

With "kilowatt" hub-drive motors you are ridden by the bike. With mid-drive motors, especially these 250 W nominal, you ride the bike

100% agree with this observation. I came from a 350W 'quality' hub (BH Evo Cross) to a 250W mid drive (Giant Explore). The difference between the two is as Stefan says.

The hub felt like it was pushing me along from behind, the mid drive feels more an extension of my peddling input (albeit far stronger than I could ever manage).

Initially I preferred the feel of the BH hub over a Bafang mid drive I tried but after a year and a half of commuting on the BH I now find the mid drive experience ultimately more rewarding. For me. (That and my hub died with no national BH presence to repair or replace it).

I get the appeal of hubs though - sometimes it's nice to feel pushed along.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For the case of the Vado its got a 48t front and 11-42 rear so its never the case.

Mine is 11-46t, yet of course you are right. I meant the rider of mid-drive motor e-bike co-works with the motor through the drive-train while it doesn't happen with the hub-drive one. Now take Yamaha PW-X2 motor with 85 Nm torque motor and ride it in 36-51t gear: you get 120 Nm torque at the rear wheel and you don't need either 750 or 1000 W to achieve that.

Now, fancy (if it were doable) an ICE car with the engine connected by internal gears directly to the rear axle. No proper transmission, no gear-box. That's the geared hub drive motor e-bike for you.

 

[teskow]

My machine is a hub drive 750 w with a torque sensor, cadence mode and throttle. The assist comes on so mild I sometimes have to look at the watt draw to even know if any assistance is being fed. The harder I pedal the more watts are fed to the motor. Sort of like a throttle on an automobile. A very natural feeling to me. I do not feel pushed along at all unless I use the cadence setting. The on off feeling in cadence mode to me is an unnatural feeling and annoying so I seldom if ever use it. I do not like cadence feature of the power coming on the instant I move the crank.. No Power will come on with the torque sensor until pressure, torque is applied to the crank. How much crank pressure is required to do this depend on the assist level I set it at. Personally I believe it is the cats meow.

 

[opimax]

I have 3 bikes, 2 have hubs , 1 geared and 1 DD. My favorite when working correctly is the Stromer ST 2, most powerful and smoothest drive train. 2nd is the my BH Nitro , geared hub drive. 2nd in power, 1st in riding when motor off and last in smoothness . 3rd is a new Trek 7s Allant. Last in power , slowest bike when completing rides, 2nd for no power.

I have 3 batterries for each but different size. Stromer has most range, Trek is 2nd unless you go slow, very slow ( I don’t) Stromer by far quietest about a tie for 2nd place , didn’t think Trek was supposed to so loud.

Stromer has adjustable torque sensor , Trek needs it or low end torque for slow cadence riders

the engineering of the drive system is more important then the choice IMHO. A crappy mid drive will not feel as good as a quality hub and the other way around too. For me a long distance flatish smooth rider a hub seems better. I was surprised on how little oomph I get from my Trek on roads at 20mph plus and smallish hills.

last category, reliability/service. I would rate Stomer a negative 10, Bh a negative 9 and Trek a positive 9 so far

I have depositS on 3 new WattWagon ”Super bikes” . I am working with them on configuration, not sure if they will be hub or mid drives yet.

 

[opimax]

Stefan, imagine an a vehicle powerEd by electric motor which are known torque monsters and how little transmission is needed..Oh here is one example, maybe you heard of them?


transmission
Featured snippet from the web
Teslas use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The company says its drivetrain has about 17 moving parts compared with about 200 in a conventional internal combustion drivetrain. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free.


on my Trek , they say it can go up any hilll, but they don’t say how slow you are going or how fast you have to clown pedal to get any speed

 

[FlatSix911]

Gentlemen... take a look at these articles for a good discussion on the merits of both drive systems.

https://islandcitybikes.com/f/mid-drive-vs-hub-motor-why-this-is-the-wrong-question

As we move on into the future, we must be careful we do not fall into old ways of thinking that have been proven disastrous for so many. There are very few things in life that are “either/or.”
The Bafang mid-drive motor may be the best motor in the world but it will never be the best motor for every bike, every rider, and every riding condition.
The same can be said for the hub motors built by Grin Technologies. It is our job to look at a bike being brought to us for conversion and say…this motor is the best motor for this bike.

Electric bicycle hub motors vs mid-drive motors: Which should be on your next e-bike?

Electric bicycles are becoming increasingly popular forms of two-wheeled electric transportation for both commuting and pleasure riding. The two most...

electrek.co

Mid-drives have a lot of improvements over older hub motor technology, but they have their own unique issues. There’s a reason hub motors have been around so long – they work.
The main advantages of mid-drive include lower weight and better gear usage, which makes them more appropriate for off-road use and those with hilly terrain to traverse.
Hub-motors, on the other hand, are fairly bulletproof and low maintenance, and thus are usually better for commuters and those that want a simple, reliable e-bike with very little maintenance.

 

[Johnny]

I have ridden a high quality hub drive (stromer)....loved it, Was it as good as my Brose mid drive....no way unless your talking 25mph+. Still good though. I actually planned on getting one this year but the lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

I am talking about Stromer. I don't know which one you rode but my experience is the opposite, Stromer is very smooth from a stand still not 25mph. I love Brose, it is my favorite mid drive but for roads Stromer is faster, absolutely silent and just as smooth.

Would it be better on a 30% grade??

I rode it in San Francisco, though I don't check the grades (so I can't talk about %30) I can say that on hills it has been a better/faster climber for me compared to any other mid drive. I don't consider smooth gravel trails as MTB trails, they are just gravel imo and it does very well on gravel. I even climbed a small section of a MTB trail which I don't recommend, but I was so surprised how smooth it was, not even once it struggled.

I came from a 350W 'quality' hub (BH Evo Cross)

Unfortunately although as a bike and just the motor it is good quality, it is only has a tmm4 which is not enough for smooth riding by itself. It also does not come stock with a higher end foc controller so your range and output power is not what it could be.

 

[tomjasz]

The best motor is the one you ride. Period. The rest is minutiae. As is so often the case we rally behind the eBike we bought as the best choice. It's a shame we waste time trying to convince others, I'd rather ride. I have motors and bikes from 36V 250W to 60V 1500W. Each has delivered more smiles than a giant spliff.

 

[linklemming]

I am talking about Stromer. I don't know which one you rode but my experience is the opposite, Stromer is very smooth from a stand still not 25mph. I love Brose, it is my favorite mid drive but for roads Stromer is faster, absolutely silent and just as smooth.

Im mostly agreeing with you, no doubt the stromer is silent and smooth and definately better for the road but my experience is the brose just gets better the lower gear you use/steeper grade. While the stromer might be 'smooth' on a 15% grade at 8mph, it just doesnt have the torque(due to hub drive and direct drive) to have as much fidelity. By the same token, a 1 ton vw with a 2hp engine could be considered smooth. Extended climbs will also favor the mid drive. Sounds like the stromer is best for you, thats awesome. I planned on owning one this year but my lbs doesnt carry them anymore.

I love them both although I prefer the typical clean packaging of the mid drive (the stromer also has nice clean packaging), they each have their place.

FWIW, I lived in SF for a few years in the late 80s.

 

[Johnny]

definately better for the road but my experience is the brose just gets better the lower gear you use/steeper grade.

In this forum it is mentioned countless times(including me) that mid drives benefit from gearing hence on climbs it is possible(given the bike equipped with the right gearing) to keep it at a cadence that the mid drive is efficient and climb steep hills. However there is also the motor output side to this story, these motors still produce a lot of power even at 5mph though not as efficient.

While the stromer might be 'smooth' on a 15% grade at 8mph,

It "is" very smooth and I am faster than 8mph on %15. Last week we did a climb to Silicon Valley Vista point and the other bike was a Bosch CX. I had to slow down or use level 1, every climb when I increased the assist a notch I was much faster than the CX even when it was on Turbo (t is an ok 14 mile trip with elevation gain around 2500ft, the climb begins in the second half and I believe there are several sections of %20+ gradient). The surprising part was we consumed almost identical WH at the peak.
I have 2 Bosch and 1 Yamaha mid drive and I did the same route many times , they are slower and not smoother.


It is good to hear that you are happy with your Brose offerings, they are great, I would love to have one though I don't have any space or time for another ebike. However for the subject of the matter, I strongly disagree with any claims that state hub motors being useless for climbing, not smooth etc.


Note: I am not a brand fanatic on the contrary I can be overly critical about them even if I own one.