Lady cyclist killed in Davis involving juvenile on ebike...on the bike path.

[Chargeride]

I went to a record shop to buy 'Planets on Fire, I thought his name was Hammy Hagar because of the way the wrote his name on the cover.
Mildly cringe.
Anyway, a very apt track thesedays.
What an absolute banger.
Even Jeremy will be air guitaring.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Even Jeremy will be air guitaring.

Nah, not my cup of tea. I like my rock with a good dose of musicianship.

Plenty of that out there if you look for it. Top 40 charts generally aren't good places to look. By themselves, shredding guitar solos are not evidence of musicianship.

 

[stompandgo]

So what about EVH, then?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

So what about EVH, then?

Eddie van Halen? Can't say that I've heard a lot of his music, and probably not his best.

But if his work on Thriller is any guide, I'd say that he was a very talented guitarist. As I recall, loved his fills and the way he kept his leads connected to the music before and after. That's certainly part of musicianship in my book.

 

[PedalUma]

Hammy Hagar!
He would just show up unannounced at a little dive bar in Mill Valley sometimes and play with people like Grace Slick and Carlos Santana, and folks from Journey. That was before mobile phones so no one knew but those already in attendance.

 

[Gionnirocket]

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Eddie van Halen? Can't say that I've heard a lot of his music, and probably not his best.

But if his work on Thriller is any guide, I'd say that he was a very talented guitarist. As I recall, loved his fills and the way he kept his leads connected to the music before and after. That's certainly part of musicianship in my book.

Virtuoso, groundbreaker... etc. All true, but so what. Music (like any art) is subjective.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I ride at about 12-15 most of the time, but can go over 20 if needed. Just like a car could go over 55.

The difference is that most any car can go a considerable distance over 55. But few cyclists can sustain that speed for very long.

Data from Strava backs that all up.

Basically non-experienced cyclists average around 11-12 mph while experienced cyclists average around 15 mph. Overall average speeds are around 12mph. And let's keep in mind this is data from Strava so chances are it is, if anything, biased a bit towards faster and more competitive cyclists.

Only very strong and experienced cyclists can average 20mph over significant distances and varied terrain. It gets much harder to pull that off with unpaved surfaces or significant elevation gain. When I say "significant distances" I'd say that being able to ride 10 miles in 30 minutes on an acoustic road bike qualifies you as pretty badass.

 

[mschwett]

The difference is that most any car can go a considerable distance over 55. But few cyclists can sustain that speed for very long.

Data from Strava backs that all up.

Basically non-experienced cyclists average around 11-12 mph while experienced cyclists average around 15 mph. Overall average speeds are around 12mph. And let's keep in mind this is data from Strava so chances are it is, if anything, biased a bit towards faster and more competitive cyclists.

Only very strong and experienced cyclists can average 20mph over significant distances and varied terrain. It gets much harder to pull that off with unpaved surfaces or significant elevation gain. When I say "significant distances" I'd say that being able to ride 10 miles in 30 minutes on an acoustic road bike qualifies you as pretty badass.

e-bike absolutists are in such denial about everything you’ve said here, which is all true. a child’s tricycle can probably go 30mph if you drop it off a cliff, it still doesn’t mean that the average acoustic bike out on the road is routinely going 20+ for long distances. the dramatic increase in serious injuries and fatalities on bikes many cities around the country is because people are going way, way faster, plain and simple. and most people on acoustic bikes never ride up huge hills, so they never go down them either.

 

[stompandgo]

That's all I have to say about that.

He also made his own guitars, Ironically, they were symbolic of the way he played.

 

[PedalUma]

From what ladder height would you be okay with falling onto pavement?
To hit at 15mph would be like falling from 7.5 feet or about the height of a standard celling.
To hit at 20mph would be like falling from 13.5 feet up.
To hit at 25mph would be like falling from 21 feet up with a 1:3 chance of serious injury.

 

[Chargeride]

Pavement...oright guvnor

 

[RunForTheHills]

From what ladder height would you be okay with falling onto pavement?
To hit at 15mph would be like falling from 7.5 feet or about the height of a standard celling.
To hit at 20mph would be like falling from 13.5 feet up.
To hit at 25mph would be like falling from 21 feet up with a 1:3 chance of serious injury.

And yet, I know someone who laid his motorcycle down on the pavement at 50mph and walked away. Because falling off a ladder at 15mph is a false equivalence to what actually happens in a bicycle crash unless you are deliberately running your bike into a concrete wall head on.

 

[mschwett]

And yet, I know someone who laid his motorcycle down on the pavement at 50mph and walked away. Because falling off a ladder at 15mph is a false equivalence to what actually happens in a bicycle crash unless you are deliberately running your bike into a concrete wall head on.

not a great point for a few reasons :

1) motorcyclists usually wear protective clothing, full face/head helmets etc

2) motorcyclists have to be licensed and motorcycles have to be registered and insured and are usually pretty skilled operators of their vehicles

3) there are always exceptions where people get lucky or unlucky but as a rule, riding a motorcycle is VERY dangerous with a fatality rate per mile something like 30x cars (don’t remember the exact number)

the bottom line is that physics is a cold hard mistress and twice the speed is four times the energy, head on concrete wall or otherwise. most things you’re going to hit on/off a bike at 28mph are way harder and more rigidly attached to the earth than you : streets, buildings, trees, cars, poles….

 

[PedalUma]

The falling off a ladder thing is just meant as a visualization. It is the kind of thing they would show in an eBike safety training class. Everywhere I need to go is within 2 or 3 miles or at 15mph 10 to 15 minutes. Because I can take bike paths without traffic lights I get where I am going in about 1/2 the time as a car. I could go faster but there is no reason. And I sure do not want to hit someone's dog or tot.
Regardless of weather you 'like' or want to listen to the music, Eddie Van Halen was a genius. I am reading a book now where the writing is brilliant but the main character is unappealing. It is a spy book about Neanderthals and French communes.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I once fell 21 ft off a ladder.. but since I was listening to EVH, the air guitar motion I was doing slowed my fall and I am the 1 in 4.
I then rode home at 28mph uphill on my class 4 ebike.
ymmv

 

[RunForTheHills]

not a great point for a few reasons :

1) motorcyclists usually wear protective clothing, full face/head helmets etc

2) motorcyclists have to be licensed and motorcycles have to be registered and insured and are usually pretty skilled operators of their vehicles

3) there are always exceptions where people get lucky or unlucky but as a rule, riding a motorcycle is VERY dangerous with a fatality rate per mile something like 30x cars (don’t remember the exact number)

the bottom line is that physics is a cold hard mistress and twice the speed is four times the energy, head on concrete wall or otherwise. most things you’re going to hit on/off a bike at 28mph are way harder and more rigidly attached to the earth than you : streets, buildings, trees, cars, poles….

Then you missed my point. How likely is it that a bicyclist is going to run directly into a concrete wall taking the full force of the collision head on? More likely they will steer away from an obstacle and may brush up against a wall. In the case that started this thread, a kid on an ebike (probably an emoto) hit a pedestrian. The pedestrian took the brunt of the impact and the kid walked away with minor injuries. None of us were there or know exactly what happened. I ride my bike around 15mph and feel very safe doing so.

 

[RunForTheHills]

The falling off a ladder thing is just meant as a visualization. It is the kind of thing they would show in an eBike safety training class. Everywhere I need to go is within 2 or 3 miles or at 15mph 10 to 15 minutes. Because I can take bike paths without traffic lights I get where I am going in about 1/2 the time as a car. I could go faster but there is no reason. And I sure do not want to hit someone's dog or tot.
Regardless of weather you 'like' or want to listen to the music, Eddie Van Halen was a genius. I am reading a book now where the writing is brilliant but the main character is unappealing. It is a spy book about Neanderthals and French communes.

I understand that, I was just pointing out that the forces you referenced are not really what a cyclist experiences during an accident. Going over the handlebars is going to hurt and road rash is almost a certainty, but a blunt impact at 15, 20, or 25mph is not usual. Getting hit by a car going 30+mph is what causes most bicycle fatalities.

 

[mschwett]

Then you missed my point. How likely is it that a bicyclist is going to run directly into a concrete wall taking the full force of the collision head on? More likely they will steer away from an obstacle and may brush up against a wall. In the case that started this thread, a kid on an ebike (probably an emoto) hit a pedestrian. The pedestrian took the brunt of the impact and the kid walked away with minor injuries. None of us were there or know exactly what happened. I ride my bike around 15mph and feel very safe doing so.

not really relevant whether it's a concrete wall, steel light post, aluminum car, etc. it's certainly unlikely to have a head-on collision with a concrete wall, but whether you hit the ground obliquely or a car door directly or a pedestrian, your kinetic energy goes somewhere. speed causes more serious injuries. arguing otherwise goes against both physics and actual on-the-ground experience of the people who are in these accidents and deal with them. actual data from marin county :

But what really struck Alfrey and Maa was that e-bike injuries were far more serious than those sustained on conventional bikes. Maa says they were more like what’s seen in motorcycle crashes. A pelvic fracture, for example, was uncommon on a pedal bicycle — only about 6 percent of conventional cycling injuries. For e-bike crashes, though, it was 25 percent.

worse than that :

The most alarming difference was the fatality rate. “On a pedal bike, the chance of dying from an injury is about three-tenths of 1 percent,” Alfrey says. On an e-bike, the data indicated, it was 11 percent.

that's a more than 30 times greater risk of fatality from an accident than a pedal bike. similar reports (some anecdotal, some with real numbers) have come from counties across the country.

many of the e-bike accidents we read about (like the famous rad incident in which a young girl died) are shrugged off as "this could have happened on a regular bike, it's the fault of the parents or the rider not the bike" but there's no way a 12 year old kid is going 25mph on an acoustic bike on a path, and it's very very unlikely that a 12 year old is riding their pedal bike UP a 10% grade far enough to regularly blast down it at 35mph.

i really like riding fast and think e-bikes are great, more people should get out of their cars and ride them. but unlike regular bikes, it takes zero dedication and experience to go fast on an e-bike, which you have to admit is kind of exactly the point. people here love to talk s*it about "roadies" blasting past them on a path or road, and maybe those guys are rude and self-centered, but they're also likely very experienced on the bike and have a deeply vested interest in not crashing, whether by hitting you, a cat, a parking meter, bollard, tree, or concrete wall.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I wasn't aware that there was a study comparing bicycle injuries to ebike injuries. I would need to understand the conditions of the study to make an informed comment on it. Of course that won't stop me from giving an uninformed opinion. I think there is a difference between a legal ebike and an illegal emotorcycle disguised as an ebike. Hopefully, this study differentiates between them if it is going to be used as justification for further regulation of ebikes.

I personally believe that a 6000 watt Sur-ron and Happy Run are ridden quite a bit differently than a 500 watt Aventon. It would interesting to read a study that differentiated between them.