Kickstand mounting bolts stripped

[PedalUma]

The schhziophrenic often have far more or much less clothing than the season demands. Appleseed was into both hooch and real estate development. He got the seeds for free from the garbage of apple jack mills. A pan on the head was at the time the equivalent of foil hat, a good idea for a bike helmet?

documentary

It is an interesting history. Corn growers west of the appellations stored their wealth in whisky. Easy to transport, condensed, tax free.

 

[BlackHand]

The OP topic was fully covered and now we have drifted off topic. @PCeBiker, I will bet that you would like the apple pie from 200 years ago. As a kid we had a 150 year-old apple tree and that was 50 years-ago. Apples used to have much more flavor and acidity. They had less sugar and a bit more starch. The skin was almost floral. They were also about 1/3 the size. Their main purpose was to make 'apple jack.' It was an easy way for people in the North to make alcohol. They would crush the apples, collect the juice and let it naturally ferment. Then they would put it outside to freeze. Then they could filter off the ice crystals, water, leaving the alcohol behind. Trees from seed made for lots of extra-tart apples. Now day they are all from grafts.

We've spent decades selecting apples based on what looks best, travels best, and keeps longest, plus bigger is always better. Taste is a distant 5th. Many of the best tasting apple varieties are too small, ugly and don't keep long after they are picked so you can't get them at grocery stores.

I grew up with Transparent apple trees in our yard, those things make the best applesauce and among the best for pies and cider.

 

[PedalUma]

those things make the best applesauce

I had 90 acres of apples behind my house as a kid. We owned access to the orchard and one acre of it, so in turn got access to one tree, 24 boxes per year. They were smallish Macintosh, fragrant and lovely. The very best are from de I'lle-de Orle'ines en Quebec. Strawberries too. The smaller ones taste better.

 

[Sparky731]

After all this, I'd really like to see some pictures of exactly what what came out of the hole. It sounds like a broken bolt and some sort of nut on the back side. No threads in the chainstay holes? That makes more sense, but I'd like to see pics!

TT

Still in process, but so far: The front bolt is broken, the rear bolt is bent.
I was able to use the “tail” of the break on the end of the bolt to reconnect and drive/turn the broken piece through thread-mount. Almost.
Having reached the bottom of the cap screw head, the end of the broken piece is frustratingly flush with the inside of the frame. A “good” bolt would not connect and turn it farther.
I was able to turn the piece ~12 degrees with a needle nose pliers. Cannot grasp it with vice grips.
Next best options include spot-welding a nut onto the bolt end, or cutting a groove across the end of the bolt shaft with a Dremmel cutter. Then turning it out with a screwdriver.
But first calling Trek Tech Support tomorrow.
.

 

[Sparky731]

The hex indentation works like a carriage bolt.
You don't need a tool on that side of the bolt.

View attachment 149649

Yes, I agree the eventual fix will be a hex head bolt inserted from the inside out with lock nuts on the outside of the kickstand. Thank you, Trek engineers, for that option.
It could have been their original design, but assembly short-cut the design considering the need to easily replace broken kickstands.
Or, if the outside locknut should happen to fail, a loose bolt will take out the brake disk. Ahhh!

 

[6zfshdb]

If you can grip & turn the broken bolt with needle nose pliers, you might try this tool :

6 in. Long Nose Locking Pliers

Amazing deals on this 6In Long Nose Locking Pliers at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

$9 at Harbor Freight.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Still in process, but so far: The front bolt is broken, the rear bolt is bent.
I was able to use the “tail” of the break on the end of the bolt to reconnect and drive/turn the broken piece through thread-mount. Almost.
Having reached the bottom of the cap screw head, the end of the broken piece is frustratingly flush with the inside of the frame. A “good” bolt would not connect and turn it farther.
I was able to turn the piece ~12 degrees with a needle nose pliers. Cannot grasp it with vice grips.
Next best options include spot-welding a nut onto the bolt end, or cutting a groove across the end of the bolt shaft with a Dremmel cutter. Then turning it out with a screwdriver.
But first calling Trek Tech Support tomorrow.
.View attachment 149744
View attachment 149747View attachment 149746View attachment 149745

A little penetrating lube in these cases can help a lot.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Still in process, but so far: The front bolt is broken, the rear bolt is bent.
I was able to use the “tail” of the break on the end of the bolt to reconnect and drive/turn the broken piece through thread-mount. Almost.
Having reached the bottom of the cap screw head, the end of the broken piece is frustratingly flush with the inside of the frame. A “good” bolt would not connect and turn it farther.
I was able to turn the piece ~12 degrees with a needle nose pliers. Cannot grasp it with vice grips.
Next best options include spot-welding a nut onto the bolt end, or cutting a groove across the end of the bolt shaft with a Dremmel cutter. Then turning it out with a screwdriver.
But first calling Trek Tech Support tomorrow.
.View attachment 149744
View attachment 149747View attachment 149746View attachment 149745

Thanks for the pictures. I can't tell though, are the holes in the chain stay threaded? If not, I'd think a whack or two on a punch would knock out the bolt.

For the repair, there would be less risk to the rotor and spokes to put the nut on the inside, imo.

TT

 

[MWRider]

Just saw Tars post after typing this. And yes, I agree with Tars about the nut.
After looking at your recent pictures, there is a pretty good probability that there are / were no threads in the frame. Only worn in threads from the bolt pushing against the hole to swage / deform the hole. Could possibly take a small drift punch and hammer to gently drive the stud out of the hole. There would not be much point in the manufacturer putting a hexagonal hole in the backside of the frame And the threading the hole also, as the nut in the hole and the threaded hole would very rarely clock / time correctly where the nut would give any mechanical advantage. Hope this makes sense.

 

[PCeBiker]

Thanks for the pictures. I can't tell though, are the holes in the chain stay threaded?

The holes are threaded.

Trek decided not to use the hex-head indentations and threaded the holes instead.

Yes, I agree the eventual fix will be a hex head bolt inserted from the inside out with lock nuts on the outside of the kickstand. Thank you, Trek engineers, for that option.
It could have been their original design, but assembly short-cut the design considering the need to easily replace broken kickstands.
Or, if the outside locknut should happen to fail, a loose bolt will take out the brake disk. Ahhh!

I was able to use the “tail” of the break on the end of the bolt to reconnect and drive/turn the broken piece through thread-mount. Almost.
Having reached the bottom of the cap screw head, the end of the broken piece is frustratingly flush with the inside of the frame. A “good” bolt would not connect and turn it farther.
I was able to turn the piece ~12 degrees with a needle nose pliers. Cannot grasp it with vice grips.

You may have enough clearance to fit the head of a Diagonal cutters in there to grab the stud.



The cutters bite into the stud so you might be able to turn it without it slipping.

 

[Sparky731]

Just saw Tars post after typing this. And yes, I agree with Tars about the nut.
After looking at your recent pictures, there is a pretty good probability that there are / were no threads in the frame. Only worn in threads from the bolt pushing against the hole to swage / deform the hole. Could possibly take a small drift punch and hammer to gently drive the stud out of the hole. There would not be much point in the manufacturer putting a hexagonal hole in the backside of the frame And the threading the hole also, as the nut in the hole and the threaded hole would very rarely clock / time correctly where the nut would give any mechanical advantage. Hope this makes sense.

Yes, there are threads through the frame — they secured the cap bolts.
Talked to Trek Support — basically, I am on the right track and good luck. However he did emphasize taking it to a dealer to file a warranty claim regardless if it is approved by Trek or not. It may be a few days from now, but I intend to try cutting a screw slot in the end of the broken piece next.
Thanks, all, for the helpful comments.

 

[Sparky731]

The holes are threaded.

View attachment 149763

Trek decided not to use the hex-head indentations and threaded the holes instead.





You may have enough clearance to fit the head of a Diagonal cutters in there to grab the stud.

View attachment 149764

The cutters bite into the stud so you might be able to turn it without it slipping.

Unfortunately, not enough room between the frame pieces to get a good, straight-on grip.

 

[PCeBiker]

It may be a few days from now, but I intend to try cutting a screw slot in the end of the broken piece next.
Thanks, all, for the helpful comments.

That should do it.
At least you have a bit of clearance around the end of the stud so you shouldn't be cutting into your frame.

You can wear down your your little Dremel cut-off disks a bit to make them a bit smaller to give you more clearance.

 

[PCeBiker]

However he did emphasize taking it to a dealer to file a warranty claim regardless if it is approved by Trek or not.

What do you figure Trek would do if are approved?
Just send you a couple new bolts?
It's hardly worth the effort of going to your LBS for that.

 

[PCeBiker]

Another trick is to try and glue a flat head bit into the slot you cut with something like JB weld or equivalent.

You can glue a socket onto a stripped bolt head the same way.

Or glue a threaded sleeve onto the exposed stud to grab onto that.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Yes, there are threads through the frame — they secured the cap bolts.
Talked to Trek Support — basically, I am on the right track and good luck. However he did emphasize taking it to a dealer to file a warranty claim regardless if it is approved by Trek or not. It may be a few days from now, but I intend to try cutting a screw slot in the end of the broken piece next.
Thanks, all, for the helpful comments.

In addition to cutting the slot and a little penetrating oil you can heat the surrounding frame area with a blow dryer.. being careful not to bubble paint.

 

[Sparky731]

What do you figure Trek would do if are approved?
Just send you a couple new bolts?
It's hardly worth the effort of going to your LBS for that.

The warranty suggestion is to off-set the LBS’ costs should I engage their services.

 

[Sparky731]

Another trick is to try and glue a flat head bit into the slot you cut with something like JB weld or equivalent.

You can glue a socket onto a stripped bolt head the same way.

Or glue a threaded sleeve onto the exposed stud to grab onto that.

View attachment 149765

The threaded sleeve is an excellent idea.

 

[Kayakguy]

Drilling the hole in the broken stainless steel stud for the easy-out is a PITA.
If you slip off the stud, you drill through ½" of aluminum in half a second.

It's best to start with a center punch, then a tiny drill bit, and progressively bigger drill bits.

Then you break the easy-out off in the stud, because you cheaped out and bought crappy easy-outs and used the smallest one because you were too lazy to drill a bigger hole.

Then you give up and rely on the remaining bolts to hold everything together.


If your broken stud is stainless steel, you might need carbide drill bits to drill into the stud.

Carbide drills are good for concrete, but not for stainless. Maybe you meant cobalt? They work very well in stainless.
But here's another thought: carefully measure the distance between bolt holes. In a plate of steel about 1" X 2" (better would be stainless) drill and tap holes with that spacing. A 1/8" or 3/16" thick plate would be enough. I may do this, as mine keep loosening too.

 

[PCeBiker]

Carbide drills are good for concrete, but not for stainless. Maybe you meant cobalt? They work very well in stainless.

OK, I don't know much about it.
I just noticed that I wore out my regular bits in seconds (cheap titanium coated) and the carbide bits lasted longer.

But here's another thought: carefully measure the distance between bolt holes. In a plate of steel about 1" X 2" (better would be stainless) drill and tap holes with that spacing. A 1/8" or 3/16" thick plate would be enough. I may do this, as mine keep loosening too.

@Sparky731 may not have enough clearance for a plate? Especially if the bolt has to thread through it a few threads.
I'd be concerned about the bolt only having ~3 threads into the plate. Not much "meat" to thread into.