Integrating a second aftermarket battery

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Even though I haven’t yet received my RCS, I’m in the early stages of planning a long-ish (130 mile each way) trip later this summer to visit a friend who lives in an adjoining state. Luna Cycle has a selection of batteries which are far less expensive than the OEM Juiced batteries. What would I need to do to integrate another battery? I assume the battery packs have their own controllers inside. If this isn’t the case, what then? Thanks!

 

[Asher]

Don't know, but maybe get a fast charger and stop at a cafe or something that will let you charge for an hour or two? Seems a lot lighter, simpler and cheaper.

 

[Captain Slow]

Yes, seems like the Cycle Satiator would be the charger for that type of ride. Probably want the biggest battery you can get as well.

 

[Reid]

Luna will give you good advice.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So Juiced does use the XT60 connector type on their battery connectors. This will be behind the upper battery mount on your bike. You would have to remove the upper mount and connect to this. Alternatively you could make an adapter with an XT60 to whatever you call the battery terminal connector type to plug in directly. Regardless, I would definitely not want to try to wire them both up simultaneously. Like Asher said a fast charge with the Satiator at 8 amps/hr would be cheaper, safer, easier, and not void your warranty. From completely depleted to full charge would be ~ 3 hours when you account for balancing at the top of the charge.

 

[bob armani]

So Juiced does use the XT60 connector type on their battery connectors. This will be behind the upper battery mount on your bike. You would have to remove the upper mount and connect to this. Alternatively you could make an adapter with an XT60 to whatever you call the battery terminal connector type to plug in directly. Regardless, I would definitely not want to try to wire them both up simultaneously. Like Asher said a fast charge with the Satiator at 8 amps/hr would be cheaper, safer, easier, and not void your warranty. From completely depleted to full charge would be ~ 3 hours when you account for balancing at the top of the charge.

Not too familiar with a Satiator. Have they actually been proven to increase your battery life, and if so by how much? Do they also have anything available as 'portable charging units' for most E-bike batteries? Perhaps not worth it in the long run...

 

[rich c]

I assume the battery packs have their own controllers inside. If this isn’t the case, what then? Thanks!

Are you asking about the bike controller, or battery management system(BMS)? The term controller normally refers to the "computer" on the bike.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Not too familiar with a Satiator. Have they actually been proven to increase your battery life, and if so by how much? Do they also have anything available as 'portable charging units' for most E-bike batteries? Perhaps not worth it in the long run??

The Grin Tech Cycle Satiator is very arguably the best charger available. However, how the charger is used is what really affects battery life. If you charge your battery slowly and try to maintain the charge/discharge cycle between 20-80%. Then you can dramatically increase the lifespan of your battery (up to 4 times longer). Other things to consider, try to store the battery at ~50%, and at near room temps. The Satiator allows the user to easily dictate both the charge rate and capacity level of charge. Its also capable of charging packs of different voltage ratings.

 

[bob armani]

The Grin Tech Cycle Satiator is very arguably the best charger available. However, how the charger is used is what really affects battery life. If you charge your battery slowly and try to maintain the charge/discharge cycle between 20-80%. Then you can dramatically increase the lifespan of your battery (up to 4 times longer). Other things to consider, try to store the battery at ~50%, and at near room temps. The Satiator allows the user to easily dictate both the charge rate and capacity level of charge. Its also capable of charging packs of different voltage ratings.

Thanks much for the explanation. Sounds like a good investment considering the extended battery life. The stock chargers that come with most E-bikes are not that sophisticated, that I have seen. Not a bad idea for some mfgs to consider offering this as an option when placing an order IMHO.

 

[christob]

The Grin Tech Cycle Satiator is very arguably the best charger available. However, how the charger is used is what really affects battery life. If you charge your battery slowly and try to maintain the charge/discharge cycle between 20-80%. Then you can dramatically increase the lifespan of your battery (up to 4 times longer). Other things to consider, try to store the battery at ~50%, and at near room temps. The Satiator allows the user to easily dictate both the charge rate and capacity level of charge. Its also capable of charging packs of different voltage ratings.

I've been intrigued by it (so I could potentially keep the OEM charger at work) -- but I cannot find that they (Grin) have a suitable adapter to fit the female plug on my battery (6 pins, 2 large 4 small.)

 

[Chris Hammond]

I've been intrigued by it (so I could potentially keep the OEM charger at work) -- but I cannot find that they (Grin) have a suitable adapter to fit the female plug on my battery (6 pins, 2 large 4 small.)

I'm not sure what battery connector you have, or bike for that matter. However, if you can figure out what connection type is used, you can easily make an adapter, should you not be able to find a pre-made one. There are many sites on the net that sell connectors. Shouldn't be hard to find once you figure out what you are looking for.

 

[christob]

It appears to be just like the "Rosenberger" connector -- except, not magnetic at all. Where the Satiator page shows a Rosenberger connector - it appears to have 4 contact points (not pins) exactly where my 4 actual pins are located, all surrounding the 2 central larger pins.
My bike (shared in signature line) is the Cafe from Vintage Electric Bikes.
Someone else posted that it is a connector made by Higo, but that's all the specs I know, myself. I'm resharing their photo here:

 

[Chuck E. Cheese]

Are you asking about the bike controller, or battery management system(BMS)? The term controller normally refers to the "computer" on the bike.

Sorry for the confusion. I was indeed talking about the BMS, not the motor controller. Am I correct in assuming that any aftermarket battery designed for ebikes will have its own BMS inside the case?

 

[Chuck E. Cheese]

So Juiced does use the XT60 connector type on their battery connectors. This will be behind the upper battery mount on your bike. You would have to remove the upper mount and connect to this. Alternatively you could make an adapter with an XT60 to whatever you call the battery terminal connector type to plug in directly. Regardless, I would definitely not want to try to wire them both up simultaneously. Like Asher said a fast charge with the Satiator at 8 amps/hr would be cheaper, safer, easier, and not void your warranty. From completely depleted to full charge would be ~ 3 hours when you account for balancing at the top of the charge.

The Satiator makes all kinds of sense for various reasons, but I would like to get to my destination without stopping. Much of the trip I plan to take is very rural and I don't know if there's even a place to sop and charge where I would need to do it. I have a friend who has ordered a juiced bike as well, and he said he's loan me his 52V pack when I take the trip, so the immediate need is resolved. Still I'd like to be able to do the trip again in the future without inconveniencing my friend.

Related question: Can I use the 52V battery on the bike I ordered (48V battery) without needing to reprogram anything?

Thanks!

 

[Chris Hammond]

Can I use the 52V battery on the bike I ordered (48V battery) without needing to reprogram anything?

Yes you can. Juiced website details this. Juiced has been very forward thinking and done a great job in not obsoleting equipment. Basically any of the Juiced packs will work on any Juiced bike, old, new, doesn't matter. (with the exception of the ODK / U500 Cargo bike which has a rear rack mounted battery).

 

[Chris Hammond]

It appears to be just like the "Rosenberger" connector -- except, not magnetic at all. Where the Satiator page shows a Rosenberger connector - it appears to have 4 contact points (not pins) exactly where my 4 actual pins are located, all surrounding the 2 central larger pins.
My bike (shared in signature line) is the Cafe from Vintage Electric Bikes.
Someone else posted that it is a connector made by Higo, but that's all the specs I know, myself. I'm resharing their photo here:
View attachment 21799

So the Rosenberger connector is designed to transmit both data (4 small pins) and power (2 large pins). I would recommend contacting Vintage or ask others on their forums about the compatibility. It realistically should work fine by just making an adapter that correctly connets the pos and neg poles.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

The Satiator makes all kinds of sense for various reasons, but I would like to get to my destination without stopping. Much of the trip I plan to take is very rural and I don't know if there's even a place to sop and charge where I would need to do it. I have a friend who has ordered a juiced bike as well, and he said he's loan me his 52V pack when I take the trip, so the immediate need is resolved. Still I'd like to be able to do the trip again in the future without inconveniencing my friend.

Related question: Can I use the 52V battery on the bike I ordered (48V battery) without needing to reprogram anything?

Thanks!

There is no reason, with the proper hardware, that you can't put another battery in parallel, wired in between the stock battery and the controller, and get extended range. It needs to be the same voltage, of course. I've been thinking about wiring in an Anderson PowerPole connector for this same reason, to make it easy to add more range.

Honestly, though, my first move will be to move up to the 52V battery. Lots of extended range without modifying a thing. Stash my current battery in one of the baskets and I'd have enough juice to ride a lot longer than my sorry butt could hold out.

Which may be similar to what you want to do. Go on Ali Baba and do a search for Reention Dorado ID-1-Plus battery. You can find them fairly inexpensively. I don't know about the quality of the internals, but it's not going to be your go-to battery, just one you use occasionally on longer rides. Might be preferable to voiding your warranty by modifying the electric system on your bike.

 

[harryS]

Sorry for the confusion. I was indeed talking about the BMS, not the motor controller. Am I correct in assuming that any aftermarket battery designed for ebikes will have its own BMS inside the case?

Yes, a battery should have a BMS which will monitor for overcharge, low voltage cutoff, and most will keep your cells in balance. (Many BMS boards sold on ebay don't have balance circuits, so novice DIY battery builders are building substandard batteries if they use those parts.) In addition, your ebike controller has its own low voltage shut off limit, often set higher than the battery's low voltage alarm.

In my opinion, the best way to use a spare battery is to run off the main battery and switch connectors to bring in the spare. The spare can be mounted on a cradle, if you have room, or carried in a bag. When I carry spares, I use bags.

I have put batteries in parallel, but only for smaller identical batteries where I wanted to add the current. You have to check that the two batteries are of equal voltage when connecting them. If I connect two that are a half volt apart, several amps of current flows as they equalize. This won't blow things up. However, several volts might smoke something, while a fully discharged battery connected to a fully charged one is probably disaster. Simplify your life and be safer. Don't connect in parallel.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Yes, a battery should have a BMS which will monitor for overcharge, low voltage cutoff, and most will keep your cells in balance. (Many BMS boards sold on ebay don't have balance circuits, so novice DIY battery builders are building substandard batteries if they use those parts.) In addition, your ebike controller has its own low voltage shut off limit, often set higher than the battery's low voltage alarm.

In my opinion, the best way to use a spare battery is to run off the main battery and switch connectors to bring in the spare. The spare can be mounted on a cradle, if you have room, or carried in a bag. When I carry spares, I use bags.

I have put batteries in parallel, but only for smaller identical batteries where I wanted to add the current. You have to check that the two batteries are of equal voltage when connecting them. If I connect two that are a half volt apart, several amps of current flows as they equalize. This won't blow things up. However, several volts might smoke something, while a fully discharged battery connected to a fully charged one is probably disaster. Simplify your life and be safer. Don't connect in parallel.

I think you're over-estimating the danger of putting two batteries in parallel that are not exactly the same voltage.

You are correct in saying that if you put a battery that has, say, 49 volts at its present state of charge in parallel with a battery that is at 46 volts, some juice will flow between them as they seek to level out at the same voltage. In other words, the 49V battery will be re-charging the 46V battery. All things being equal, they will meet more or less in the middle.

This isn't a problem. It's very similar to what happens if you recharge your cell phone battery with one of those great external batteries by Anker, ZeroLemon, etc.

Consider the behavior of the typical charger. Mine is a 2 amp charger. The amperage doesn't affect the voltage, though. If your 48V battery is depleted to 46 volts, and you put it on the charger, the charger is going to produce around 54 volts in the initial phase. That's an 8 volt difference. Nothing gets smoked.

I put batteries in parallel for ham radio operation all the time. I don't worry about the voltage. They will be within operating specs of the radio.

There's also nothing wrong with a set-up that uses first one battery and then the other, which is what I think you're suggesting. But you are off-track with your concern about putting batteries in parallel. What you don't want to do is put them in serial!

 

[harryS]

Appreciate your reply, Bruce. Guys like you and I know enough to do these kind of things, but I won't tell others to do them.

Here's a more detailed article for Chuck E Cheese to read.
https://electricbike.com/forum/foru.../20725-paralleling-bms-protected-li-ion-packs

By the way, what's the risk in hooking up batteries in series, assuming the controller is capable of the extra voltage? I made myself a small 12.6V (BMS protected) battery pack that I occasionally add to my 36V batteries to get 48V. I know about a BMS fault on one could put over voltage on the BMS of the other. Not worried about that with only 48V total.