In my area there is just the one trail I ride which is part of Acadia National Park. There are signs that state no class 2 or 3 Bikes and 20MPH. Mine is a class two so when I ride from my house to one of the trail starting points I simply stop, turn off the bike, and unplug the throttle which converts my bike to class 1. Now here's the weird part. I've ridden every inch of those trails many times and there are almost no areas that are safe to ride 20mph. I've gotten up as high as 16 and applied the brakes as it was a bit scary. If I was to go around a corner (and there are many) at 20mph and encountered a group of hikers or another bike of any kind coming the other way there would be no way I could stop in time and there would be a serious accident. So if safety is a concern at all then explain why the speed limit is so high.
how do you feel about the current regulatory system for e-Bikes in the US?
- Thread starter mschwett
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tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
youre welcome to your opinion, but it’s a nunyer as far as others using throttles goes.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
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- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Sure you're welcome to an opinion. There's no assurance though, of how much weight it's going to carry. For instance, if you have any belief that your opinion is going to affect mine when it comes to picking out my next bike WITH THROTTLE, you'd be be badly mistaken
Wow, some folks are real something. I expressed an opinion on what I think should change, and you think I'm trying to convince you you should change your mind. To be completely clear, I do not give a rats ass what you do and I will not be lobbying anyone to change the rules. If they change, I'll follow the new rules.
Go crank your throttle.
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Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Just because the "speed limit" is X mph doesn't mean that for every yard of the route X mph is a safe speed. I frequently ride on roads with a 35mph and 50mph speed limits and corners marked for 20mph and 15mph.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I've had several conversations with law enforcement officers over the years about my e-bike. Some of those conversations were along the lines of, "you'd better know what the laws are for the operation of your bike and be damned sure you are following them." And I usually am not riding very fast and my bike in full touring kit is pretty inconspicuous. So at least for me I am pretty sure the rules are being enforced.
When I bicycle travel I find it handy to carry a printed copy of the relevant state (or provincial) laws governing e-bikes. Even though that information is not complete it goes a long way towards making it clear that you are a law-abiding citizen trying to do your best to navigate confusing and sometimes contradictory laws.
When I bicycle travel I find it handy to carry a printed copy of the relevant state (or provincial) laws governing e-bikes. Even though that information is not complete it goes a long way towards making it clear that you are a law-abiding citizen trying to do your best to navigate confusing and sometimes contradictory laws.
I see very little enforcement of speed limits and other rules for autos where I live. I see no need for any rules on ebikes as they'd not be enforced either. The only interaction I've had with law enforcement was when talking to a park ranger who was telling me how much he likes his ebike because with the throttle, if his bad knee goes out, he can make it back home. That was in another state.
I seldom ride on trails because I have to throw my bike in my pickup and drive to get to a dedicated trail. Could that be the reason that rules don't matter here? Gotta ride on roads.
I seldom ride on trails because I have to throw my bike in my pickup and drive to get to a dedicated trail. Could that be the reason that rules don't matter here? Gotta ride on roads.
True but when 20MPH is unsafe speed on 90+% of the trails one would think it should be lower.
mschwett
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
well, i suppose i should be pleasantly surprised that it took almost 40 replies before someone got nasty lol. it's a sad world when people of differing opinions about something as non-sensitive as e-bikes can't discuss the topic without being rude or insulting. in the end, aren't we all on the same side in the big picture here, trying to get more people out of cars and onto bikes, walking, transit, etc? and maybe to advocate against people in cars running over bikes without consequence lol!?
on the topic of enforcement, i actually got pulled over on my class 3 road ebike about 9 months ago for "running red lights" in a nearby small town. it was a T intersection with a parking lot, i slowed to a crawl at the red, turned right, made a u-turn in lot, and then made another right onto the main road. technically ran two red lights. got a 15-20 minute lecture from a very self-righteous motorcyle officer about running red lights, speeding on a bike, hitting pedestrians, and the general lawlessness of the big city and that i shouldn't be riding that way on the roads these fine small town taxpayers paid for and no longer feel safe on because of cyclists like me. i sat there and listened to his soapbox while drivers sped by above the speed limit, which i was certainly not exceeding! he didn't make a single mention of my e-Bike, or what class it was, or anything. i'm not sure he even knew it was an e-bike.
on the topic of enforcement, i actually got pulled over on my class 3 road ebike about 9 months ago for "running red lights" in a nearby small town. it was a T intersection with a parking lot, i slowed to a crawl at the red, turned right, made a u-turn in lot, and then made another right onto the main road. technically ran two red lights. got a 15-20 minute lecture from a very self-righteous motorcyle officer about running red lights, speeding on a bike, hitting pedestrians, and the general lawlessness of the big city and that i shouldn't be riding that way on the roads these fine small town taxpayers paid for and no longer feel safe on because of cyclists like me. i sat there and listened to his soapbox while drivers sped by above the speed limit, which i was certainly not exceeding! he didn't make a single mention of my e-Bike, or what class it was, or anything. i'm not sure he even knew it was an e-bike.
mschwett
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- Region
- USA
... but don't most states have a "basic speed law?" i know california does - "... you may never drive faster than is safe for current conditions. Regardless of the posted speed limit, your speed should depend on: The number and speed of other vehicles on the road. Whether the road surface is smooth, rough, graveled, wet, dry, wide, or narrow."
this means that if you're one a highway that says 55, and it has a tight hairpin turn, it's actually not legal to go 55 around that turn even if you think you can handle it, because the car/van/truck/suv/motorcycle ahead of you surely cannot. i don't know for sure but i'd imagine that this applies to bicycles and posted speed limits as well, given the broad requirement of bicycles to obey the rules of the road.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
One would think that. Though where I live there is a 35mph speed limit on unpaved county roads. 99 percent of the time that is way faster than what I'd ever drive on those roads and often it would be suicidal.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Seems like most of the riders here are speaking from a recreational rider perspective and don't understand the utility rider's perspective. As in your bike is used for transportation, shopping and commuting. It has an actual job.
I'm the opposite. I do almost zero recreational riding. But recently as many have seen (I posted the pictures everywhere I could find a place to do so) I did a week's worth of daily and twice daily riding in a national park filled with ebikes. Nobody had a speed issue and the authorities didn't care. Again... filled with ebikes (so much so I was surprised) and this included a company that actively rented them by the literal truckload on the park grounds. Why no speed issues? Because nobody was going too fast for conditions. Everyone was enjoying the park. You want to thrill seek... you can do that on the hill in your neighborhood. You go to the natl park to see the sights. I am sure there are exceptions to this but they are so small in number as to be invisible. I can say for sure I was the fastest rider in the park... except for one guy on an analog bike who clearly lived inside the park grounds and was commuting.
To utility riding: Speed is important. More of it is better. You try relying on 15 mph bicycle speeds when instead you can ride at 30, with speeds limits posted at 35, 40, 45 and 50 mph for auto traffic along your route. If you are riding with things to do, places to go etc., halving your speed is a suggestion nobody who actually *rides* will care to listen to. This presupposes you build bikes whose components are up to this challenge, and contrary to ordinary consumer understanding, such components do exist and are perfectly effective. But they are expensive.
I am not a 'throttler'. I ride a bicycle so I can do assisted pedaling. And I gear the bicycle so that pedaling at those speeds requires effort that ranges from gentle to strong (as I see fit for the moment). But I also use a throttle regularly. It is after all an ebike and this is 2022. Why on a tool that is there to use would you handicap yourself? Like having a hammer but refusing to use the claw to pull nails out. Throttles for utility (read cargo) riders are regarded as essential by pretty much the entire assisted population. You use them to get up to speed. From a stop, I'm throttling from about a 2-one-thousand count from a dead stop. From there I accelerate and cruise via pedal assist. If I need to make a light and need just a boost ... throttle. Why would you not if the alternative is to scrub off all that momentum (and you're not breaking any laws or endangering your safety doing it)? Again its the right tool for the job.
As for law enforcement, the 30 mph number has been bandied about as the safe limit. Having bikes that cruise at this speed if desired, I can say that limit is about 34 mph with a lightly loaded cargo bike on long, straight, smooth streets with a bike lane. I say that as thats about my limit on flat land if I am really working at it, and I have been both radar'd by motorcycle cops and paced by squad cars going that speed. And then they ignore me and move on. Remember I am presenting as a commuter rider, with steady and blinking rear and front lights, a downhill helmet with chin guard, and pedaling away as I go. If I was riding on some light motorcycle with pedals at 50 I'd be pulled over in a jiffy I am sure.
And none of this applies to riding on shared use paths. On those, given pedestrian intelligence and contrariness, sometimes 20 mph is double the safe speed. I have those in Monterey CA, where the paths are the preferred safe travel but my Class 3 + bike is dialed way back in gears and power for safety's sake. AND the electric-bicycle-mounted police don't give me any trouble.
Ebike regulation should be exactly what it is for autos: Behavior based. Put the elitism and the nosiness into other people's business in a drawer where it belongs. Act like a good citizen and be prepared to pay the consequences that already exist without any new bullshit regulations
I'm the opposite. I do almost zero recreational riding. But recently as many have seen (I posted the pictures everywhere I could find a place to do so) I did a week's worth of daily and twice daily riding in a national park filled with ebikes. Nobody had a speed issue and the authorities didn't care. Again... filled with ebikes (so much so I was surprised) and this included a company that actively rented them by the literal truckload on the park grounds. Why no speed issues? Because nobody was going too fast for conditions. Everyone was enjoying the park. You want to thrill seek... you can do that on the hill in your neighborhood. You go to the natl park to see the sights. I am sure there are exceptions to this but they are so small in number as to be invisible. I can say for sure I was the fastest rider in the park... except for one guy on an analog bike who clearly lived inside the park grounds and was commuting.
To utility riding: Speed is important. More of it is better. You try relying on 15 mph bicycle speeds when instead you can ride at 30, with speeds limits posted at 35, 40, 45 and 50 mph for auto traffic along your route. If you are riding with things to do, places to go etc., halving your speed is a suggestion nobody who actually *rides* will care to listen to. This presupposes you build bikes whose components are up to this challenge, and contrary to ordinary consumer understanding, such components do exist and are perfectly effective. But they are expensive.
I am not a 'throttler'. I ride a bicycle so I can do assisted pedaling. And I gear the bicycle so that pedaling at those speeds requires effort that ranges from gentle to strong (as I see fit for the moment). But I also use a throttle regularly. It is after all an ebike and this is 2022. Why on a tool that is there to use would you handicap yourself? Like having a hammer but refusing to use the claw to pull nails out. Throttles for utility (read cargo) riders are regarded as essential by pretty much the entire assisted population. You use them to get up to speed. From a stop, I'm throttling from about a 2-one-thousand count from a dead stop. From there I accelerate and cruise via pedal assist. If I need to make a light and need just a boost ... throttle. Why would you not if the alternative is to scrub off all that momentum (and you're not breaking any laws or endangering your safety doing it)? Again its the right tool for the job.
As for law enforcement, the 30 mph number has been bandied about as the safe limit. Having bikes that cruise at this speed if desired, I can say that limit is about 34 mph with a lightly loaded cargo bike on long, straight, smooth streets with a bike lane. I say that as thats about my limit on flat land if I am really working at it, and I have been both radar'd by motorcycle cops and paced by squad cars going that speed. And then they ignore me and move on. Remember I am presenting as a commuter rider, with steady and blinking rear and front lights, a downhill helmet with chin guard, and pedaling away as I go. If I was riding on some light motorcycle with pedals at 50 I'd be pulled over in a jiffy I am sure.
And none of this applies to riding on shared use paths. On those, given pedestrian intelligence and contrariness, sometimes 20 mph is double the safe speed. I have those in Monterey CA, where the paths are the preferred safe travel but my Class 3 + bike is dialed way back in gears and power for safety's sake. AND the electric-bicycle-mounted police don't give me any trouble.
Ebike regulation should be exactly what it is for autos: Behavior based. Put the elitism and the nosiness into other people's business in a drawer where it belongs. Act like a good citizen and be prepared to pay the consequences that already exist without any new bullshit regulations
mschwett
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
i agree with almost all of this. i'm probably 70% recreational 30% utility, but the 30% is critical to every aspect of our daily life - getting to work, school, restaurants, shops, etc.
people underestimate how dangerous 20mph on a crowded path is, but that doesn't mean eBikes should necessarily be limited to 20mph. the question is, can we trust the majority of riders with, let's just say, a throttled 750w 28mph eBike, to not ride like maniacs on said paths, crowded urban bike lanes, up mountain paths where the majority of riders are going 5-10, etc. and if we can't trust them to do so, can we enforce it, and what would pay for said enforcement...
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
On those same paths I mentioned above, hotel/restaurant/hospitality workers in that tourist community use the path for commuting on analog bikes and they are positively a menace. Not the ebike riders. The analog ones who regard the tourists as ignorant obstacles on their way to their job and often brush them close to teach them a lesson in paying attention.
Frankly I want to do the same thing but having been around the block a bit I picture myself telling a jury that little old lady should have been paying attention and I realize its a fight I can never win.
The situation resulted in a) ebikes being blamed for the problem, which is ridiculous and b) the introduction of mounted ebike riding police officers on the path. Interestingly, it also resulted in the city council banning ebikes on segments of the path in question but a year or two afterwards the ban seems to be being totally ignored by riders and police.
I think we are seeing the result of the general population turning the ebike ubiquitous. All this talk of 'when they become common boy howdy thats when The Man is going to crack down' is just baloney. Hand turn signals are the law of the land for bicycles. So is dismounting and walking it across the street in many places. Count the citations, nationwide for this crime? Zero? Not so far off from that I bet and ebike riders are a wave that will turn the ebike into just a bike insofar as law enforcement and society are concerned.
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PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
I would like to avoid a crack down that lumps all eBikes in the same category. Most non-riders do this because they don't have the bandwidth for subtilty and distinction. Multi-use paths in this area of N. Cal. have three rules. 1) Stay Right. 2) Be Considerate. 3) Do Not Obstruct. That is super sensible. I would like to ban ear plugs and cell phones on multi-use paths. You have people meandering like zombies in another world while others are aware and present while trying to get to the train on time for their commute. Then you have people who do not pedal electric motorcycles and then highspeed scooters. Here is more from The Zombies.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
OMFG YES!
PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
Has anyone else made the socio-anthropological or cultural observation that people with Northern Mexican roots tend to walk in large groups shoulder to shoulder on multi-use paths, not single file and also tend to walk to the left, not right? People with schizophrenia because of the way their brains are wired also lean to the left. That can be tough to navigate. That along with the zombies and off leach pits.
That's actually the correct way to walk an a road with motor vehicles. So it is a natural carry over to 2 way multi-use paths. I do that also when walking. If bikers would consistently announce their intention to "pass on the left" I would move tothe right. No I'm not a Mexican.
fuyume
Member
- Region
- USA
I am 100% a utility transportation rider, 0% a recreational rider, and furthermore, I don’t think bicycles have any business being on ”trails”, in the first place. Everything I have said here pertains solely to operation on public roads, not off-road trails, and certainly not multi-use paths.
I am OK with ebikes being limited to a *reasonable* speed limit, and what ”reasonable” means to me is a speed that other cyclists can reach unassisted. I am not OK with pedal assist limits that are higher than throttle only limits, because that is unduly discriminatory and therefore unconstitutional. I am not OK with power limits, because they do not take into account the need to haul cargo and climb hills.
I do not recognise any substantive difference between an “electric bike”, a “moped”, and a “motorcycle”, other than by speed. The addition of pedals or the lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever for any logical reason other than elitism and ableism.
As I am also a motorcyclist (who has also taken the MSF course), I do agree that travelling at high speeds on a bicycle is inherently dangerous, because bicycles do not have the structure to withstand the forces of high speed travel or the traction to safely brake to a stop from high speed. But 20-30 mph on most street bicycles is not particularly dangerous. And even if we could say that those speeds are something of a concern, then the answer is to ensure that ebikes are robust enough to provide structural safety at 30 mph, not to arbitrarily limit motor power.
I am OK with ebikes being limited to a *reasonable* speed limit, and what ”reasonable” means to me is a speed that other cyclists can reach unassisted. I am not OK with pedal assist limits that are higher than throttle only limits, because that is unduly discriminatory and therefore unconstitutional. I am not OK with power limits, because they do not take into account the need to haul cargo and climb hills.
I do not recognise any substantive difference between an “electric bike”, a “moped”, and a “motorcycle”, other than by speed. The addition of pedals or the lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever for any logical reason other than elitism and ableism.
As I am also a motorcyclist (who has also taken the MSF course), I do agree that travelling at high speeds on a bicycle is inherently dangerous, because bicycles do not have the structure to withstand the forces of high speed travel or the traction to safely brake to a stop from high speed. But 20-30 mph on most street bicycles is not particularly dangerous. And even if we could say that those speeds are something of a concern, then the answer is to ensure that ebikes are robust enough to provide structural safety at 30 mph, not to arbitrarily limit motor power.
